Sachin Tendulkar v Virat Kohli - who is better ODI batsman?

[mishra]

36 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Starc, Johnson and Gabriel are bowling / have bowled express in the 2010s.

 

Shami, Umesh, Starc  ...  all top reverse swing bowlers from 2016 to 2018.

 

In tests

 

.. Steyn, Morkel, Philander in  SA  2012 to 2016.

.. Ashwin, Jadeja, Shami, Kuldeep in Asia 2017 and 2018.

.. Rabada, Philander, Morkel, Ngidi  in  SA  2018.

.. Anderson, Broad, Woakes in England 2014 to 2018.

.  Starc, Hazlewoid, Cummins in Australia 2017 and 2018.

.. Boult, Southee, Wagner  in NZ  2014 to 2018.

.. Johnson, Harris in Australia early 2010s.

 

All top quality and tough attacks against whom scoring runs have not been easy.

.

Reverse Swing in odi's? (Since two new ball rules) I think English got reverse swing by making the ball old simply by generating a technique to throw the ball such that ball allways lands on one side. They were told off for that.

There is no reverse swing in odis.

Edited October 30, 2018 by mishra

[rtmohanlal]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

People are reaching for straws in futile effort to prove Sachin was somehow better than Kohli.

The fact remains as a batsman Sachin never reached 900 ratings in either tests or Odis.

Sachin did not play much against two Ws or two monsters from West Indies in their peak.I will take in form Kohli over in form Sachin anytime.

Sachin sure had better World cups but I think we are yet to see the best of Kohli there.

We have seen best of Kohli in T20 world cups and we will see best of Kohli in World Cup too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

it is you  who is reaching for straws  because most of your logics are utter non sense than any thing else.

Sachin has scored 3 89+ scores  89*,93,98 in the toughest of pitches in 2nd inns which resulted in 2 wins for India against the 2 Ws.

If we are yet to see the best of Kohli, then we can decide 'Kohli better to Sachin  based on those future best performances' that time only, not as of now. Placing one batsman over another based on his future performances is some thing I am really  hearing for the first time, may be it suits your logic, but not for a lot other sensible people

[Jamadagni]

Sachin might have faced better attacks in his time, but he never dominated them. More like he would save his wicket against them and target other weaker links. There's a reason why his average against two best teams of his era(SA and Australia) is in 20s in their backyard. 

 

If Sachin had done well against Aus/SA in Aus/SA or scored in WC finals..... you could make a case of him being better than Kohli... People on here talk as if Sachin decimated those pace attacks... There's like 15-ppint difference between both players.. Have some shame!

[putrevus]

11 minutes ago, mishra said:

Sri Lanka just played slashing game during field restriction. Kalu and Jayasurya or rest didnt score any considerable runs after 15th over.

I think there was a Kiwi batsman called Mark Greatbatch. He tried it in 1992 too. Difference kiwi and Lankans was, Lankans were doing it from both the ends with no fear or pressure as they had SL the legends of batting after them (Atapattu, DSilva,Ranatunga)

They didn't have to score after 15th over, their job was to provide fast start. The scoring rate was down then because batsmen were conservative and not becuase there were great bowlers in every team.

 

What Greatbatch or SL proved is it is all about mindset.

[UnknownGenius]

5 minutes ago, Jamadagni said:

Sachin might have faced better attacks in his time, but he never dominated them. More like he would save his wicket against them and target other weaker links. There's a reason why his average against two best teams of his era(SA and Australia) is in 20s in their backyard. 

 

If Sachin had done well against Aus/SA in Aus/SA or scored in WC finals..... you could make a case of him being better than Kohli... People on here talk as if Sachin decimated those pace attacks... There's like 15-ppint difference between both players.. Have some shame!

Top Post. 

 

People are shameless and insulting Kohli by comparing him to Sachin. He has left the Tendy way behind. Gap between Kohli and Sachin much bigger than gap between Sachin and Ganguly or Dravid or Yuvi. Viv Richers is somewhere in betweem

[express bowling]

18 minutes ago, mishra said:

Reverse Swing in odi's? (Since two new ball rules) I think English got reverse swing by making the ball old simply by generating a technique to throw the ball such that ball allways lands on one side. They were told off for that.

There is no reverse swing in odis.

 

Talking about test matches.

 

The post I quoted was about the standard of bowling nowadays.

[UnknownGenius]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Talking about test matches.

 

The post I quoted was about the standard of bowling nowadays.

In test matches Sachin avg in 4th innings was a paltry 35 or something.....

[putrevus]

If NBA analogy is used, scoring has increased in NBA becuase teams are favoring to score more three pointers.It is not because some how teams were better in 1990s.Basketball has evolved now emphasis is on 3 pointer and scoring back to basket is an outdated concept.

 

Economy rates of bowlers have increased because batsmen are willing to take more chances and dot balls are frowned upon.Kohli is master of not having dot balls and he is the best we have seen in rotating strike.Kohli is not better becuase he can play more shots, he is better becuase he minimizes risk of getting out while keeping the scoreboard ticking.

 

Kohli's game is era proof, it is so simple that it can replicated anywhere in any era against any so called great bowlers which Sachin faced.The concept of not putting ball in air is what makes Kohli the best and most conistent odi player of all time.

[putrevus]

30 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

it is you  who is reaching for straws  because most of your logics are utter non sense than any thing else.

Sachin has scored 3 89+ scores  89*,93,98 in the toughest of pitches in 2nd inns which resulted in 2 wins for India against the 2 Ws.

If we are yet to see the best of Kohli, then we can decide 'Kohli better to Sachin  based on those future best performances' that time only, not as of now. Placing one batsman over another based on his future performances is some thing I am really  hearing for the first time, may be it suits your logic, but not for a lot other sensible people

I don't want to argue with you, you are stuck in your preconceived notions. Sachin is and was never a better odi player than Kohli period.

 

A guy who scores just 1 hundred against best odi team in his generation in their back yard in 5 tours cannot be best in anything period.

[mishra]

13 minutes ago, putrevus said:

They didn't have to score after 15th over, their job was to provide fast start. The scoring rate was down then because batsmen were conservative and not becuase there were great bowlers in every team.

 

What Greatbatch or SL proved is it is all about mindset.

I think, You are very much mistaken. Jayasurya and Kalu had only three innings between them, which were comparable to modern day cricket.

One was against Kenya,second against England and third against India.

 

So to call that they were bashing pacers of that era is nothing but ignorance or insult.

 

 

PS: SL won most matches by walkover.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, mishra said:

I think, You are very much mistaken. Jayasurya and Kalu had only three innings between them, which were comparable to modern day cricket.

One was against Kenya,second against England and third against India.

 

So to call that they were bashing pacers of that era is nothing but ignorance or insult.

 

 

PS: SL won most matches by walkover.

I never said they were bashing all pacers. All I said they started that trend of attacking cricket.That brought about change in mindset of other teams too.Players who could attack from begining were drafted.

 

Your point that somehow bowlers were better becuase the scores were lower is not correct.Kapil Dev might be having lowest economy rate among Indian fast bowlers but he would himself say Bumrah is a better odi bowler than him.

 

Greatness is not limited to one era, there are great players in every era.When someone smashes the previous record by whopping 50 plus games it is not by accident or because he is facing inferior bowling.He did it because he is that great.

 

Kohli proved his greatness in last two test series. Show me one test series where Sachin faced better bowling on spicy wickets and did better than Kohli than last two test series.

 

There is a reason why Kohli has highest player ratings in both tests and odis by an Indian batsman.

[velu]

[sandeep]

9 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I never said they were bashing all pacers. All I said they started that trend of attacking cricket.That brought about change in mindset of other teams too.Players who could attack from begining were drafted.

 

Your point that somehow bowlers were better becuase the scores were lower is not correct.Kapil Dev might be having lowest economy rate among Indian fast bowlers but he would himself say Bumrah is a better odi bowler than him.

 

Greatness is not limited to one era, there are great players in every era.When someone smashes the previous record by whopping 50 plus games it is not by accident or because he is facing inferior bowling.He did it because he is that great.

 

Kohli proved his greatness in last two test series. Show me one test series where Sachin faced better bowling on spicy wickets and did better than Kohli than last two test series.

 

There is a reason why Kohli has highest player ratings in both tests and odis by an Indian batsman.

For all of Virat's statistical achievements, there exist the likes of Rohit, Warner, Amla and even Babar Azam in his peer group, who are putting up similar big numbers.   Sachin, not unlike Viv, was putting up monster numbers that were head and shoulders ahead of his peer group.  That's one way to compare across eras.  

 

But agenda ooncha rahe hamaara.

[mishra]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

I never said they were bashing all pacers. All I said they started that trend of attacking cricket.That brought about change in mindset of other teams too.Players who could attack from begining were drafted.

 

Your point that somehow bowlers were better becuase the scores were lower is not correct.Kapil Dev might be having lowest economy rate among Indian fast bowlers but he would himself say Bumrah is a better odi bowler than him.

 

Greatness is not limited to one era, there are great players in every era.When someone smashes the previous record by whopping 50 plus games it is not by accident or because he is facing inferior bowling.He did it because he is that great.

 

Kohli proved his greatness in last two test series. Show me one test series where Sachin faced better bowling on spicy wickets and did better than Kohli than last two test series.

 

There is a reason why Kohli has highest player ratings in both tests and odis by an Indian batsman.

I think you got the answer there.  What happened with Kalu and Jayasurya was, they showed you dont have to be Sachinesque type to score boundries by placing it between two fielders. You can simply be pich hitter and take adavantage by hitting the ball in air and get exactly similar S/R in first 15 overs as long as your wicket doesnt matter to team.

So you had Afridi.

 

But that doesnt mean you will succeed against good/ATG bowlers. You can only do pinch hitting against likes of bowlers who were mediocre.

 

Modern day odi cricket has 3 sessions of pinch hitting.

 

Now I dont want to open a thread of Bhumrah vs Kapil. You can open it.

 

 

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, velu said:

What are you doing here?  You missed your shift at the temple building job-site for thala.  He's going to have plenty of time to make personal appearances there soon. May want to establish yourself as one of the regulars.

[Trichromatic]

44 minutes ago, putrevus said:

If NBA analogy is used, scoring has increased in NBA becuase teams are favoring to score more three pointers.It is not because some how teams were better in 1990s.Basketball has evolved now emphasis is on 3 pointer and scoring back to basket is an outdated concept.

  

 Economy rates of bowlers have increased because batsmen are willing to take more chances and dot balls are frowned upon.Kohli is master of not having dot balls and he is the best we have seen in rotating strike.Kohli is not better becuase he can play more shots, he is better becuase he minimizes risk of getting out while keeping the scoreboard ticking.

  

 Kohli's game is era proof, it is so simple that it can replicated anywhere in any era against any so called great bowlers which Sachin faced.The concept of not putting ball in air is what makes Kohli the best and most conistent odi player of all time.

Concept of not putting ball in air fails even with best players when they have to face old ball stopping on surface which doesn't happen in ODIs any longer.

 

Bit of help from conditions and teams still struggle to get to 200 in ODIs. Those things haven't changed yet.

 

What has changed is that on pitches where teams could score 300, now batsmen are scoring 380.

 

[Laaloo]

2 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Concept of not putting ball in air fails even with best players when they have to face old ball stopping on surface which doesn't happen in ODIs any longer.

 

Bit of help from conditions and teams still struggle to get to 200 in ODIs. Those things haven't changed yet.

 

What has changed is that on pitches where teams could score 300, now batsmen are scoring 380.

 

And hence the higher average and also a better strike rate. It's so simple yet it eludes Putrevus for some reason.

[mishra]

2 minutes ago, Laaloo said:

And hence the higher average and also a better strike rate. It's so simple yet it eludes Putrevus for some reason.

3 sessions of pinch hitting. Off which two sessions , the ball is jujst good enough not to spin, not to reverse swing, not to stop on track.

 

[rtmohanlal]

47 minutes ago, Jamadagni said:

Sachin might have faced better attacks in his time, but he never dominated them. More like he would save his wicket against them and target other weaker links. There's a reason why his average against two best teams of his era(SA and Australia) is in 20s in their backyard. 

 

If Sachin had done well against Aus/SA in Aus/SA or scored in WC finals..... you could make a case of him being better than Kohli... People on here talk as if Sachin decimated those pace attacks... There's like 15-ppint difference between both players.. Have some shame!

No body is claiming that  Sachin outweighed all other contemporary  batsmen in each and every batting factor there ever was .It is just that  he topped all others of his time when over all brilliance is concerned,that's all.And it is not  the record  vs  AUS & SAF  in their backyard that is important,  but it is  the record in AUS & SAF that is important. For instance  before 2011 world cup(every body knows Sachin carried a bit more.More importantly his longevity even  till  2011 world cup  was much larger than even the 2nd placed  batsman in the list)    , Sachin's stats  in AUS was avg: of 37.5 & str: of 75 . These figures may not be 'great' but at least  'very good' considering the fact that   avg:ing '40 over all' was considered great for batsmen who started from 90 onwards. And these consists of several top knocks  including 2 90+ knocks  in B&H finlas in 2008  , a 93 vs the 2Ws while chasing etc etc.For a stat , a 93 in  2nd  inns against Wasim & Waqar   can be considered lot more valuable quality wise than same 93 vs a set of ordinary Aussie bowlers in a bilateral ,Isn't it?That is why I say record 'in AUS' is the criteria.Similarly , once Sachin started opening in Mar 27 1994 till 2011 world cup(this phase with 16353 runs too is comfortably larger than that of entire aggregate of 2nd numbered batsman in the list),  his  stats in SAF was 42.22 avg: & 83.37 str: respectively. And this stats though a bit  inflated by performance  vs minnows is still very good.This stats also consists of several 'great to good' knocks.

And another vital  factor people who has followed  Sachin's   career so closely associates with him  is the amount of pressure of expectations he had to cope with thru out his career.And he is credited for this factor too. So it is not a matter of 'shame' , it is a matter of common sense only

 

[sandeep]

5 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

No body is claiming that  Sachin outweighed all other contemporary  batsmen in each and every batting factor there ever was .It is just that  he topped all others of his time when over all brilliance is concerned,that's all.And it is not  the record  vs  AUS & SAF  in their backyard that is important,  but it is  the record in AUS & SAF that is important. For instance  before 2011 world cup(every body knows Sachin carried a bit more.More importantly his longevity even  till  2011 world cup  was much larger than even the 2nd placed  batsman in the list)    , Sachin's stats  in AUS was avg: of 37.5 & str: of 75 . These figures may not be 'great' but at least  'very good' considering the fact that   avg:ing '40 over all' was considered great for batsmen who started from 90 onwards. And these consists of several top knocks  including 2 90+ knocks  in B&H finlas in 2008  , a 93 vs the 2Ws while chasing etc etc.For a stat , a 93 in  2nd  inns against Wasim & Waqar   can be considered lot more valuable quality wise than same 93 vs a set of ordinary Aussie bowlers in a bilateral ,Isn't it?That is why I say record 'in AUS' is the criteria.Similarly , once Sachin started opening in Mar 27 1994 till 2011 world cup(this phase with 16353 runs too is comfortably larger than that of entire aggregate of 2nd numbered batsman in the list),  his  stats in SAF was 42.22 avg: & 83.37 str: respectively. And this stats though a bit  inflated by performance  vs minnows is still very good.This stats also consists of several 'great to good' knocks.

And another vital  factor people who has followed  Sachin's   career so closely associates with him  is the amount of pressure of expectations he had to cope with thru out his career.And he is credited for this factor too. So it is not a matter of 'shame' , it is a matter of common sense only

 

Tldr - Sachin outshone his peer batsmen by large margin. Virat has done well, but so have others in his peer group.  Warner, Amla, AB, Rohit, Babar etc.

 

If anybody in the current era has a claim to surpass Sachin in ODIs, its AB.  Not Virat.