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Trichromatic

Sachin Tendulkar v Virat Kohli in Tests

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8 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

There were other reasons too ... like they did not having bowling machines to practice against ...  familiarity with those bowlers were lower  ( in the absence of T20 leagues )   now, even a Surya Yadav has lots of practice playing Rabada, Starc etc. ... so the aura and fear of the big fast bower is reduced ...  seeing fast bowlers getting hit like off spinners on flat T20 pitches reduces their fear in the modern era too.

 

But, all these factors made it easier for anyone with a bit of pace, bounce and discipline to pick wickets in the 80s and 90s.

 

p.s -- See, you recognize the difficulty and the effect of formative years on the 80s batter ...  but not of the 2010s batter. 

False, because batsmen in the 80s had far greater defensive technique and far less tendency to try and hit good balls. So much harder to pick up wickets, period.

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2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

False, because batsmen in the 80s had far greater defensive technique and far less tendency to try and hit good balls. So much harder to pick up wickets, period.

 

The good batsmen did.  Maybe around 3 such batters per team for the stronger teams.  The other 4 batters were very often seen meekly surrendering to bouncers and rising short balls.  And the last 4 were walking wickets.

 

Proper batsmen were better at handling medium paced swing bowlers though compared to today's batters.

 

If a pacer had a bit of pace and bounce then picking 7 to 8 wickets were easier than today and picking 3 or 4 wickets were more difficult than today.

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First let Virat score atleast some where near to what Sachin could  gather in his entire career. Then we can even  start this comparison.

The guy has not even scored 5800 runs as of now . Here some are comparing him to another batsman who has scored 10000+ runs more!!!!!!!!! Can't get the game sense of some of these  posters...As if just because Virat has scored almost 5800, he would automatically

go on scoring with ease!!!!!!!! . In his first WI tour Sachin avg:ed  57+ . And in his next WI tour in 2002, I was glad because Ambrose,Walsh & Bishop  were not playing due to various reasons and thought Sachin would hence avg:  even 100. Then came his unexpected nemesis in Petro Collins & start of tennis elbow.He could avg: only 41 in that tour. That is the nature of this game.So to compare some one with 15921 runs with another who has only 5750 runs is basically as foolish as it can get.

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7 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

The good batsmen did.  Maybe around 3 such batters per team for the stronger teams.  The other 4 batters were very often seen meekly surrendering to bouncers and rising short balls.  And the last 4 were walking wickets.

Almost all batsmen back then, compared to their equal counterparts, had much better defensive techniques. You are talking about indian batsmen of the 80s who meekly surrendered to bouncers, not the rest of the world's. 

7 hours ago, express bowling said:

Proper batsmen were better at handling medium paced swing bowlers though compared to today's batters.

They were better at handling medium pace swing as well as extreme pace. 

7 hours ago, express bowling said:

If a pacer had a bit of pace and bounce then picking 7 to 8 wickets were easier than today and picking 3 or 4 wickets were more difficult than today.

Nonsense. Great bowlers bowl great spells. This is why its easier for great bowlers to pick up wickets in bunches. 

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8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Almost all batsmen back then, compared to their equal counterparts, had much better defensive techniques. You are talking about indian batsmen of the 80s who meekly surrendered to bouncers, not the rest of the world's. 

They were better at handling medium pace swing as well as extreme pace. 

 

There were only 7 test teams in the 1980s  (  and only 6 test teams during most of the '70s ).  Sri Lanka was just starting in tests in the 80s and were a rookie team. 

 

Among the 6 better teams left ... only Windies and Australia played pace and bounce well.  That too, they did not have to face their own pace bowlers.

 

West Indies was a stupendous team, Australia good but had a poor period from around 1982 to 1986 ( roughly ).

 

England had some really abysmal batsmen. When a team plays a 46 year old unfit Brian Close with low batting average, one knows their batting strength.  Mike Brearly averaged in the early 20s.  From the mid 80s , the English team went into a great slump with low quality cricketers for 6 years or so. They were the team who got most whitewashes from the Windies.

 

Indian has around 3 good batters per team ... Pakistan had the great Miandad and a couple more decent batters. Most others just surrendered meekly to pace and bounce. NZ team was ordinary barring Hadlee in the 70s and 80s , Crowe in the 80s and Turner in the 70s, and a couple other ok guys, be it batting or bowling.

 

It was an era with low competition ( 1 great team smashing poor or ok opposition ) ,  low professionalism and analysis, low fitness,  slow boring batting, high percentage of drawn test matches, ODIs in their nascent stage.

 

The only competitive and interesting things were India Pakistan rivalry from late 70s, Ashes during 1973 to 83 or thereabouts and the few competitive WI vs Australia matches in the mid and late 70s.

 

Whatever competition there could have been was reduced by Kerry Packer related exodus and no South Africa.

 

Cricket became interesting from the 1990s with great competition and more professionalism.

 

 

Quote

Nonsense. Great bowlers bowl great spells. This is why its easier for great bowlers to pick up wickets in bunches. 

 

Poor batsmen who do nothing to disturb the bowler's line and length ... no helmet or poor helmet and other poor protective gear ... no practice against bowling machines ... make it a lot easier too.

Edited by express bowling
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On 8/5/2018 at 12:58 AM, rtmohanlal said:

Angus fraser was a very good bowler in the calibre of Anderson. Similarly Cork,Caddick,Mullaly,Hoggard,Flintoff all were almost near in calibre  to Anderson. And they together combined formed formidable attacks.Might be  Dravid, Rahane,Kohli scored against slightly better attacks, but  Sachins' speciality  was that he was at the least good in all countries he played in. No body is saying he was the best among Indian batsmen in all the countries he played in 

Are you kidding me, Fraser while good was not even in the same ball park as Anderson, Tendulkar scored hundreds when pitches were flat .Nobody is saying Tendulkar was not great but Kohli in form is far better than Tendulkar in form and it applies to all forms of the game and against all attacks on all pitches.

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22 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Are you kidding me, Fraser while good was not even in the same ball park as Anderson, Tendulkar scored hundreds when pitches were flat .Nobody is saying Tendulkar was not great but Kohli in form is far better than Tendulkar in form and it applies to all forms of the game and against all attacks on all pitches.

Like it applies in finals too?

 

Does it apply on tank turners too?

 

How many match winning 100s Kohli has in SENA countries? 

 

Not yet.

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8 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Like it applies in finals too?

 

Does it apply on tank turners too?

 

How many match winning 100s Kohli has in SENA countries? 

 

Not yet.

How many match winning 100s did Sachin have in his career in SENA as far my memory, it is two that Headingley 2002 and 2008 NZ 2002 they were two other centurions. What finals did Sachin score??? Don't give me tri series finals.

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34 minutes ago, putrevus said:

How many match winning 100s did Sachin have in his career in SENA as far my memory, it is two that Headingley 2002 and 2008 NZ 2002 they were two other centurions. What finals did Sachin score??? Don't give me tri series finals.

So by the age of 29, SRT had at least 1 knock.

 

Kohli has 0. You say there were two other centurion, then who stopped him from scoring runs when others were scoring runs at Lords 2014? Jaddu did, Bhuvi did, Rahane did.

 

I won't give you tri-series finals. 

 

Forget about winning. Let's lower the standard even further. Give me any LIST A final in which Kohli scored a half century.

 

Even in best form, Kohli can only dream of playing these 6-7 of these knocks.

 

RunsDescending Mins BF 4s 6s SR Pos Dismissal Inns   Opposition Ground Start Date  
138 214 133 10 1 103.75 2 lbw 1   v Sri Lanka Colombo (RPS) 14 Sep 2009 ODI # 2889
134 195 131 12 3 102.29 2 lbw 2   v Australia Sharjah 24 Apr 1998 ODI # 1327
128 182 131 8 2 97.70 2 stumped 1   v Sri Lanka Colombo (RPS) 7 Jul 1998 ODI # 1344
124* 140 92 12 6 134.78 2 not out 2   v Zimbabwe Sharjah 13 Nov 1998 ODI # 1374
117* 235 120 10 0 97.50 2 not out 2   v Australia Sydney 2 Mar 2008 ODI # 2688
100* 156 103 13 0 97.08 2 not out 2   v Kenya Kolkata 31 May 1998 ODI # 1337
95 104 78 6 5 121.79 2 bowled 2   v Pakistan Dhaka 14 Jan 1998 ODI # 1276
91 176 121 7 0 75.20 2 caught 1   v Australia Brisbane 4 Mar 2008 ODI # 2689
67 128 88 6 0 76.13 2 caught 1   v South Africa Mumbai 6 Nov 1996 ODI # 1138
66 101 68 8 0 97.05 2 caught 1   v West Indies Kolkata 5 Nov 1994 ODI # 947
53 - 70 2 0 75.71 4 lbw 2   v Sri Lanka Kolkata 4 Jan 1991 ODI # 661
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On 8/3/2018 at 2:14 PM, shortbread said:

Kohli at the moment is a much better player than Sachin, especially in these conditions.

 

That passage of play when Curran, Anderson and Stokes made rest of the batsmen hop around, I dont think Sachin would have survived either. Kohli almost did not as well, but then hung on and made it his own.

 

The only other Indian batsman who can stand upto a lethal spell of English swing bowling is Dravid.

Sachin has survived English condition in his debut series as 17 years old not just survive but drawn a test by doing partnership with tailenders.... Not just that he survived rampaging imran/waqar and wasim in his debut series as an 16 year old while Kohli was shitting in his pants against andu in 2014 series when he already had tons of experience.

Edited by raki05
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1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Are you kidding me, Fraser while good was not even in the same ball park as Anderson, Tendulkar scored hundreds when pitches were flat .Nobody is saying Tendulkar was not great but Kohli in form is far better than Tendulkar in form and it applies to all forms of the game and against all attacks on all pitches.

believe in what ever you want to believe ..... I shall stick on with my verdicts.  No problems...

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Let me put it plain and simple, Only now, for first time Kohli is being classed as one threat, like the way English/Aussie or any other fans used class Tendulkar i.e No matter what, match is not won till Kohli/Tendulkar was/is in crease. Tendulkar/Kohli's wicket was/is good enough for a bowler to make into team

Tendulkar had achieved this status by early 2000.

 

 

Things have changed now. Umpires cant be used as 12th player and BCCI cant be armtwisted to accpt some crap.

 

Unlike Africans, English are tactical. They will create a trap now for him. And Malan or any player will not drop catches off Kohli i.e. Kohli will not get another chance.

 

So, this new found glory for Kohli will be tested this series. In first test, Kohli was hindighted as English declared that Rashid is selected to playing 11 for Kohli, whilet there will be a battle between Anderson and Kohli and then cashed him via Stokes.  Kohli should be prepared

 

 

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There was lot of talk that Michael Clarke as well as Cook would overtake Sachin. It all went downhill. Michael Clarke retired with just 8643 runs (slightly more than half the runs Sachin scored)  and the other is struggling to score runs and it one flop series away from being dropped.

 

Sachin has scored 15,921 test runs whereas Virat has scored 5754 runs.  That is just 37 percent of runs scored by Sachin. it is too premature to compare these two in test match cricket. He is not even close. 

 

 

Edited by Straight Drive
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4 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

So by the age of 29, SRT had at least 1 knock.

 

Kohli has 0. You say there were two other centurion, then who stopped him from scoring runs when others were scoring runs at Lords 2014? Jaddu did, Bhuvi did, Rahane did.

 

I won't give you tri-series finals. 

 

Forget about winning. Let's lower the standard even further. Give me any LIST A final in which Kohli scored a half century.

 

Even in best form, Kohli can only dream of playing these 6-7 of these knocks.

 

RunsDescending Mins BF 4s 6s SR Pos Dismissal Inns   Opposition Ground Start Date  
138 214 133 10 1 103.75 2 lbw 1   v Sri Lanka Colombo (RPS) 14 Sep 2009 ODI # 2889
134 195 131 12 3 102.29 2 lbw 2   v Australia Sharjah 24 Apr 1998 ODI # 1327
128 182 131 8 2 97.70 2 stumped 1   v Sri Lanka Colombo (RPS) 7 Jul 1998 ODI # 1344
124* 140 92 12 6 134.78 2 not out 2   v Zimbabwe Sharjah 13 Nov 1998 ODI # 1374
117* 235 120 10 0 97.50 2 not out 2   v Australia Sydney 2 Mar 2008 ODI # 2688
100* 156 103 13 0 97.08 2 not out 2   v Kenya Kolkata 31 May 1998 ODI # 1337
95 104 78 6 5 121.79 2 bowled 2   v Pakistan Dhaka 14 Jan 1998 ODI # 1276
91 176 121 7 0 75.20 2 caught 1   v Australia Brisbane 4 Mar 2008 ODI # 2689
67 128 88 6 0 76.13 2 caught 1   v South Africa Mumbai 6 Nov 1996 ODI # 1138
66 101 68 8 0 97.05 2 caught 1   v West Indies Kolkata 5 Nov 1994 ODI # 947
53 - 70 2 0 75.71 4 lbw 2   v Sri Lanka Kolkata 4 Jan 1991 ODI # 661

Sachin Debuted at 16 and Kohli made test debut in 2011 and I don't know why you are giving me age. Tendulkar has 2 in his 20 year career. Kohli is in 8th season.When You consider tendulkar's stats you have to include WI also becuase WI were more powerful than NZ then and he had none there.

 

I said don't give me triseries and thats all you have .183, 133 and 100 no .His performances in SA are far more impressive than any of Sachin's performances.

 

I may think once or twice in picking Kohli the test player over Sachin the test player but I will pick Kohli in odis over Sachin anywhere in any match.

Edited by putrevus
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25 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

There was lot of talk that Michael Clarke as well as Cook would overtake Sachin. It all went downhill. Michael Clarke retired with just 8643 runs (slightly more than half the runs Sachin scored)  and the other is struggling to score runs and it one flop series away from being dropped.

 

Sachin has scored 15,921 test runs whereas Virat has scored 5754 runs.  That is just 37 percent of runs scored by Sachin. it is too premature to compare these two in test match cricket. He is not even close. 

 

 

Who said Kohli has to score more runs than Sachin to be considered a better player. Sachin stats are due to longetitvity which have no bearing on qualty.

 

Bradman has scored under 7000 runs and still is considered the best by many.

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5 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Sachin Debuted at 16 and Kohli made test debut in 2011 and I don't know why you are giving me age. Tendulkar has 2 in his 20 year career. Kohli is in 8th season.When You consider tendulkar's stats you have to include WI also becuase WI were more powerful than NZ then and he had none there.

  

I said don't give me triseries and thats all you have .183, 133 and 100 no .His performances in SA are far more impressive than any of Sachin's performances.

 

I may think once or twice in picking Kohli the test player over Sachin the test player but I will pick Kohli in odis over Sachin any anywhere in any match.

Give me 1 LIST A final 50+ score from Kohli.

 

Any List A final. Shouldn't so difficult as you can pick domestic cricket too. You can't get easier argument than this. 

 

Or 50 over game at any level, ODIs, List A domestic, U19, club cricket - any one inning.

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11 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Give me 1 LIST A final 50+ score from Kohli.

 

Any List A final. Shouldn't so difficult as you can pick domestic cricket too. You can't get easier argument than this. 

 

Or 50 over game at any level, ODIs, List A domestic, U19, club cricket - any one inning.

Why ??? his 35 odi 100s along with 58 average in 200 odd matches are not enough to prove that he is among the greatest odi players ever.

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25 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Why ??? his 35 odi 100s along with 58 average in 200 odd matches are not enough to prove that he is among the greatest odi players ever.

Yeah it's enough to prove that he is an ATG ODI batsman, but not best in any condition.

 

Btw still waiting for that inning. Shouldn't be so difficult to find one.

 

Pick any professional 50 over match. Even mediocre ones gave got one. Greatest would have 1 at least junior levels.

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