Navdeep Saini bowling with genuine pace now ( Fastest of 152.9 kph )

[ShoonyaSifar]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

Saini has looked good in patches, ordinary in patches.  He's young, new to int'l cricket.  Very few fast bowlers become instant superstars - Not everyone can be a Rabada or Steyn.  Even Wasim Akram had poor stats in his first few years of cricket.  Went on to become the best left-arm pace bowler ever.  

 

In baseball - young pitchers who can be potential superstars, take 2-3 years in the "minor leagues" to work on control, and the mindset to work hitters out.  Because its one thing to have the ability to pitch fast, and put it in the strike zone, its a totally different thing to learn which delivery to pitch to which hitter depending on the situation.  Even when throwing the ball with bent elbow, its a very difficult thing to learn.   This is why pace bowlers deserve the longest rope of all types of cricketers.  

 

Even Jasprit Bumrah, an absolute old soul of a bowler - a guy who almost instinctively seems to know when to use which variation, has been developing into the lead dog he is today, for more than 2-3 years.  It takes time.  And many get lost along on the way and never quite get there.  

 

Let's be patient with our prospects - I do not know if Khaleel, Saini, Siraj, etc are ever going to blossom into a legit int'l cricket star.  But the least we can do as fans, is be honest about the process, and be fair to them as they go on their journey.   Sitting here in your underwear, and demanding 3 wickets per game is easy.   Being an informed fan who takes the good with the bad is not obvious. 

 

World Cup is 4 years away.  Crunch test series against top teams are months away.  Let's be patient with the prospects, and save the heartburn for the team management - whose *-ups are much more glaringly obvious.

My problem is the way ICF pace brigade, after hyping a youngster, dumps the same player after a match or two because he does not bowl the same speed as IPL. 

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, Vilander said:

it could be based on the conditions and what it mandated to get wickets. WI bowlers who bowled quicker did not get wickets ( given it could be due to differnce in batting quality). I think we should see him bowl  in few more games 

 

Bro, Saini should get many more chances and will get many more chances to prove his mettle. 

 

In fact, I want him to play test matches because 5 day cricket is his strongest format.

 

I am willing to give him a very long rope ... but he should not take the route of dropping pace.

 

Can't remember a single great pacer who has dropped pace and succeeded. ( not considering loss of pace at the end of their careers which happens to everyone.) 

[Vilander]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Bro, Saini should get many more chances and will get many more chances to prove his mettle. 

 

In fact, I want him to play test matches because 5 day cricket is his strongest format.

 

I am willing to give him a very long rope ... but he should not take the route of dropping pace.

 

Can't remember a single great pacer who has dropped pace and succeeded. ( not considering loss of pace at the end of their careers which happens to everyone.) 

agree, but from the way he was bowling, I think 

 

1, he was not pushing himself to bowl quick for some reason - either a niggle or a plan

2, He employed slower balls and was visibly more accurate.

 

I somehow think this is basically down to some reprioritization from coaches and he will probably settle into a rhythm soon or identify some faster wicket-taking balls, as he will know what worked for him in the past.  As you say we will have a clearer picture when he plays ODI.

 

 

[Pandya_Power]

42 minutes ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

My problem is the way ICF pace brigade, after hyping a youngster, dumps the same player after a match or two because he does not bowl the same speed as IPL. 

Exactly. This needs to stop. We need to understand the distinction between peak pace and default average pace range. Clearlt SMA and IPL were aberrations. He is more than good enough to make it at the International level as a 140 kph bowler.

[RAZPOR]

20 hours ago, rkt.india said:

i am talking about skills and Khaleel at this stage has more skills than the ones you mentioned.  you need to understand what does skill mean for a fast bowler whether he can swing the ball, he does; whether he can bowl good bouncer, he can; whether he can bowl yorker, he can; whether he can bowl good slower balls, yes he can.  None of the above-mentioned posses all these skills.

thats your opinion i don't think so ,so far there is nothing special about khaleel at all,infact he has looked very ordinary at times.

Edited August 7, 2019 by RAZPOR

[Insidious]

Khaleel is unadkat 2.0. period. Even unadkat has more skill than khaleel.

[Insidious]

There was no issue with speed gun in IPL. I think saini is a rhythm bowler like ishant. Still remember a 8 or 9 over spell of saini in a domestic match, where is average pace was 138 ks - 139ks. 

I think saini is yet to hit his rhythm and that is why his speed is low. 

 

[express bowling]

Why is Saini not playing today !!!!

 

Should have been given chances in all 3 ODIs.

[Suhaan]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

Why is Saini not playing today !!!!

 

Should have been given chances in all 3 ODIs.

I guess he won't get in any

This has been the norm in current regime,where youngsters/newbies getting dropped without getting a game for next series

Edited August 8, 2019 by Suhaan

[Vijy]

On 8/7/2019 at 10:41 AM, express bowling said:

 

Bro, Saini should get many more chances and will get many more chances to prove his mettle. 

 

In fact, I want him to play test matches because 5 day cricket is his strongest format.

 

I am willing to give him a very long rope ... but he should not take the route of dropping pace.

 

Can't remember a single great pacer who has dropped pace and succeeded. ( not considering loss of pace at the end of their careers which happens to everyone.) 

From what I recall, Walsh went from reasonably quick (but not "fast" per se) to fast medium around mid-career but was more effective. but I think your general point is correct.

[express bowling]

24 minutes ago, Vijy said:

From what I recall, Walsh went from reasonably quick (but not "fast" per se) to fast medium around mid-career but was more effective. but I think your general point is correct.

 

I don't recall any distinct drop in pace by Walsh within a short timeframe.  He debuted at age 22 and played for more than 16 years.  About midway into his career, at the age of 30 or 31 and having played for 8 or 9 years, some reduction in pace is normal.  And the loss in pace is made up by experience.

 

But we are discussing sharp drop in pace of seamers who are not " old " in terms of either age or experience.  When this happens, it is a often a sign of poor attitude or poor fitness or both or mismanagement by coaches.  And the result of this on the careers of those pacers is usually a negative one.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by express bowling

[Rightarmfast]

16 minutes ago, Vijy said:

From what I recall, Walsh went from reasonably quick (but not "fast" per se) to fast medium around mid-career but was more effective. but I think your general point is correct.

Walsh was never express to begin with. His forte was bounce. His pace dropped even lower only towards the 2nd half of his career, which is quite common with great pace bowlers. 

Walsh was never 'reasonably quick'. He was always around the 135k's kind of bowler. He was never 145.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I don't recall any distinct drop in pace by Walsh within a short timeframe.  He debuted at age 22 and played for more 16 years.  About midway into his career, at the age of 30 or 31 and having played for 8 or 9 years, some reduction in pace is normal.  And the loss in pace is made up by experience.

 

But we are discussing sharp drop in pace of seamers who are not " old " in terms of either age or experience.  When this happens, it is a often a sign of poor attitude or poor fitness or both or mismanagement by coaches.  And the result of this on the careers of those pacers is usually a negative one.

 

 

I seem to recall something circa mid-1990s but I cannot aver it with 100% confidence. I agree that pacers with sharp pace drop are unlikely to perform well in test after the decline in pace. it is a diff issue in ODIs where canny bowling could enable one to still be effective in the 90s and early 00s (although not afterwards). in ODIs, zulu went from bowling quite fast to a purveyor of cutters and was still quite effective. but his test bowling suffered. in the past 10-15 yrs, hard to find bowlers who bowled < 135 kmph and were successful. of course in the 1990s and before, there were plenty of swing bowlers who operated in 120s and low 130s and were quite successful. but those days are mostly gone.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Walsh was never express to begin with. His forte was bounce. His pace dropped even lower only towards the 2nd half of his career, which is quite common with great pace bowlers. 

Walsh was never 'reasonably quick'. He was always around the 135k's kind of bowler. He was never 145.

I meant that he went from being high-to-mid 130s bowler to a low 130s bowler around mid-career. high 130s was reasonably quick for that era where test batting was more defensive, bats were less advanced, and pitches helped bowlers.

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I seem to recall something circa mid-1990s but I cannot aver it with 100% confidence.

 

Walsh was born in 1962, debuted in 1984 and in the the mid-90s was 33 + with 11 years of experience. And he still retained his steep bounce from 6'6" height.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[vishalvirsingh]

On 8/6/2019 at 10:22 PM, RAZPOR said:

skilled 140+k bowlers are much preferred over crooked canons like aaron.

Still I truly believe skill can be taught.. That motu coach. Varun should be brought in mix and he be trained properly. 

We know how intelligent umesh is... Varun should be at least a shade better. 

If umesh can get the support why not varun. 

Anyone who can bowl a new ball @150k is exceptional... Skills can be taught.

 

Had I been the cricket selector I would get these guys to bowl 12 balls at full pace with out a break. Calculate average pace and then identify who are the fastest. 

 

Average fast pace is what matters not that one ball at 145k..even Stuart binny once bowled @137k...doesn't mean that fatso is a 137k bowler.

 

Stamina and strength is tested if 12 consecutive full pace bowling is the test. 

Weak bowlers would not bowl 12 balls consecutively at 140+.

Guys like bumrah shammi will be winners as they maintain pace.. Which is what matters. 

I want bowlers who do bowl one or two slow balls at 111k but other balls are at 140+ not those easy comfy 133k pace. 

[Vijy]

Just now, express bowling said:

 

Walsh was born in 1962, debuted in 1984 and in the the mid-90s was 33 + with 11 years of experience. And he still retained his steep bounce from 6'6" height. 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

yeah, I got the timeline a bit jumbled. I was thinking of 1993, where I felt he was ineffective and seemed to slow down (took 17 wkts in 7 matches) but was able to counteract loss of pace with canny bowling and of course his bounce as you noted (took 36 wkts in 8 matches in 1994 and 62 wkts in 12 in 1995).

[vishalvirsingh]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Walsh was born in 1962, debuted in 1984 and in the the mid-90s was 33 + with 11 years of experience. And he still retained his steep bounce from 6'6" height.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oshone Thomas is dangerous but has stamina issues. 

 Holder is average. 

Roach is old now. 

They have one test pacer who is fast but he does not play in odi. 

I believe they r not picking right fast bowlers 

[Vijy]

13 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Walsh was born in 1962, debuted in 1984 and in the the mid-90s was 33 + with 11 years of experience. And he still retained his steep bounce from 6'6" height.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

on this note, I wish we produced more bowlers like mcgrath, amby-boy and walsh who have the height and sufficient pace to extract big bounce.

[express bowling]

46 minutes ago, Vijy said:

on this note, I wish we produced more bowlers like mcgrath, amby-boy and walsh who have the height and sufficient pace to extract big bounce.

 

Absolutely.  And add Garner to that list.

 

Prasidh is perhaps the bounciest frontline tall quick in India now.  Avesh and Porel are not bad either.  Khaleel can be bouncy if he hits the deck hard ... but he prefers to have no definitive bowling style.