Better captain: Ganguly or Dhoni?

[CommonMan]

Ganguly

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, speedheat said:

Nop ganguly didn't had better resource, first of all ganguly was himself a poor odi bat

1. lets look at 4-3 loss to windies, apart from sehwgh and sachin who we had?? Laxman, dravid, mongia, bangar, kaif were average odi  cricketers, youraj( was developing but still youraj was not youraj in 2002) and I rate bowling attack of srinath(past his prime) agarkar nehra bangur and harbhajan as poor! 

2. In 2005  4-2 Loss, again the bowling of balaji pathan even though they did wel in 2004 Pakistan tour were down in pace and looked exhausted Zak too was coming out of injury  in that series vs pak so I rate bowling attack as poor too, middle order again with ganguly,laxman,dravid, kaif in to it was poor/average  only dhoni was the positive of  series with that brilliant 148.

 

By the time yuvi and dhoni hit the peak gangullys captaincy was taken away from him, so he did well with limited potential and team  he had which stats don't show also standards of Aussie, pak, west indies was still high and it degraded by the dhoni became captain.

What did I read here?

[sergio04]

ganguly, its not even a competition

[SLICKR392]

Would rather take all the trophies that Dhoni won than being 'competitive overseas but winning jack ****'. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 hours ago, speedheat said:

Nop ganguly didn't had better resource, first of all ganguly was himself a poor odi bat

1. lets look at 4-3 loss to windies, apart from sehwgh and sachin who we had?? Laxman, dravid, mongia, bangar, kaif were average odi  cricketers, youraj( was developing but still youraj was not youraj in 2002) and I rate bowling attack of srinath(past his prime) agarkar nehra bangur and harbhajan as poor! 

2. In 2005  4-2 Loss, again the bowling of balaji pathan even though they did wel in 2004 Pakistan tour were down in pace and looked exhausted Zak too was coming out of injury  in that series vs pak so I rate bowling attack as poor too, middle order again with ganguly,laxman,dravid, kaif in to it was poor/average  only dhoni was the positive of  series with that brilliant 148.

 

By the time yuvi and dhoni hit the peak gangullys captaincy was taken away from him, so he did well with limited potential and team  he had which stats don't show also standards of Aussie, pak, west indies was still high and it degraded by the dhoni became captain.

• Kya.....how was ganguly a poor odi batsman???
• Dravid wasnt an avg odi cricketer - he was above avg to good . During that era he was quite good....who added value Wkt keeping.
• How was bhajji poor.....

 

Kya likh rha hai bhai tu .....all wrong 

 

Balaji bowled really well in test series in 2005, it was a poor call to select him in odi which captain is responsible for . I remeber after that series woolmer gave an interview were he suggested indian team to use agarkar over balaji in odi cricket.

 

Please dont say taken away, he was rightly removed. His batting form was awful and during last yr or so in his captaincy the team was in a bad shape. 

 

in 2005 pak series, sehwag was in red hot form till his fav bat broke .

 

Zak coming out injury- that was biggest problem i had with ganguly he use to get players back asap without getting them match fit and hence nehra n zak use to break out regularly 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Ankit_sharma03

[speedheat]

13 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

What did I read here?

I don't rate him as he was poor against some good bowling attacks like Australia in his time, but that's not the point of discussion here, you asked me about resources he had during captaincy and his loss against wi and pak so i answered it, looks like you agreed for once hence no reply on that.

[speedheat]

13 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

• Kya.....how was ganguly a poor odi batsman???
• Dravid wasnt an avg odi cricketer - he was above avg to good . During that era he was quite good....who added value Wkt keeping.
• How was bhajji poor.....

 

Kya likh rha hai bhai tu .....all wrong 

 

Balaji bowled really well in test series in 2005, it was a poor call to select him in odi which captain is responsible for . I remeber after that series woolmer gave an interview were he suggested indian team to use agarkar over balaji in odi cricket.

 

Please dont say taken away, he was rightly removed. His batting form was awful and during last yr or so in his captaincy the team was in a bad shape. 

 

in 2005 pak series, sehwag was in red hot form till his fav bat broke .

 

Zak coming out injury- that was biggest problem i had with ganguly he use to get players back asap without getting them match fit and hence nehra n zak use to break out regularly 

What all wrong?? You are mixing things up when did balaji bowled well in that 2005 series vs pak?? He was good in test matches but not in Odis was murderd by afridi why are you bringing test series in the middle when I was replying about 4-2 odi loss??

Yes dravid was average in odis he was not some one sachin,dhoni or UV in Odis who who would take the game away from opponents

Yes bhajji was poor in Odis you want me to show his pathetic stats vs better odi teams in his era??

Ganguly may be better but he was helpless against genuine pace and short balls so I don't rate him as a odi bat 

 

 

Ankit note one thing I was replying to him on Odis(4-2 & 4-3 loss) so don't mix test format in the middle I rate all of them in testmatches , Teri purani aadat hai Sab kuchk mix karneka aur dusroko galat bolneka

Edited January 3, 2018 by speedheat

[Laaloo]

14 minutes ago, SLICKR392 said:

Would rather take all the trophies that Dhoni won than being 'competitive overseas but winning jack ****'. 

But you can't deny the fact that winning trophies became a little easier when we were at least guraranteed a qf spot at the least after our embarrassment in 2007. Granted in 2003 final we lost, but that WC run was impressive in foreign conditions. 

[speedheat]

6 minutes ago, Laaloo said:

But you can't deny the fact that winning trophies became a little easier when we were at least guraranteed a qf spot at the least after our embarrassment in 2007. Granted in 2003 final we lost, but that WC run was impressive in foreign conditions. 

Months ago during IPL that slickr argued with me and called himself as neutral fan, and here he is openly doing dhoni chamcha girri  

[Temujin Khaghan]

Didn't we lose something like 16/17 finals in ganguly's era?

[Trichromatic]

31 minutes ago, speedheat said:

I don't rate him as he was poor against some good bowling attacks like Australia in his time, but that's not the point of discussion here, you asked me about resources he had during captaincy and his loss against wi and pak so i answered it, looks like you agreed for once hence no reply on that.

I didn't need to reply to that. How come team under Azhar was better than teams which Ganguly had?

[Ankit_sharma03]

25 minutes ago, speedheat said:

What all wrong?? You are mixing things up when did balaji bowled well in that 2005 series vs pak?? He was good in test matches but not in Odis was murderd by afridi why are you bringing test series in the middle when I was replying about 4-2 odi loss??

maine bhi to wahi bola, he was bowling well but selecting him in Odi was a poor call by ganguly

 

25 minutes ago, speedheat said:

Yes dravid was average in odis he was not some one sachin,dhoni or UV in Odis who who would take the game away from opponents

Doesnt mean he was poor, sachin dhoni, kohli are legends in Odi cricket and yuvi was bloody good

Doesnt mean if wasnt at their standard he wad avg.....he was quite good

 

25 minutes ago, speedheat said:

Yes bhajji was poor in Odis you want me to show his pathetic stats vs better odi teams in his era??

Bhajji was a good odi bowler during that pahse 

25 minutes ago, speedheat said:

Ganguly may be better but he was helpless against genuine pace and short balls so I don't rate him as a odi bat 

He scored damn well against SA n Pak.....ur telling those had bad fast bowlers

He was the highest scorer from india in 2001 Sa odi series 

25 minutes ago, speedheat said:

 

 

Ankit note one thing I was replying to him on Odis(4-2 & 4-3 loss) so don't mix test format in the middle I rate all of them in testmatches , Teri purani aadat hai Sab kuchk mix karneka aur dusroko galat bolneka

I dnt mix....read carefully

42 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

•  

Balaji bowled really well in test series in 2005, it was a poor call to select him in odi which captain is responsible for . I remember after that series woolmer gave an interview were he suggested indian team to use agarkar over balaji in odi cricket.

theek se padh 

[speedheat]

8 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

I didn't need to reply to that. How come team under Azhar was better than teams which Ganguly had?

Its unnecessary to bring azhar here now, you talked about ganguly having better resources than dhoni which is completely incorrect, as dhoni had way better resources i have proved it in above post but you avoided in fact dhoni had the best ever Indian odi batting lineup which he  got in 2011wc if you see his performance as captain  declined ever since the cream of the Indian batting of 2011wc retired, dhoni got 1st worst team to deal with as a captain,2016. Pune IPL team and boy oh boy his captaincy was exposed badly he was  made to vacate the captaincy immediately in next season that's sums it up nicely i guess.

[Trichromatic]

6 minutes ago, speedheat said:

Its unnecessary to bring azhar here now, you talked about ganguly having better resources than dhoni which is completely incorrect, as dhoni had way better resources i have proved it in above post but you avoided in fact dhoni had the best ever Indian odi batting lineup which he  got in 2011wc if you see his performance as captain  declined ever since the cream of the Indian batting of 2011wc retired, dhoni got 1st worst team to deal with as a captain,2016. Pune IPL team and boy oh boy his captaincy was exposed badly he was  made to vacate the captaincy immediately in next season that's sums it up nicely i guess.

Well if you read discussion, you quoted my post which was going along the lines that under Ganguly our ODI team regressed and that's why we have Azhar in discussion. 

 

India was performing better with worse team under Azhar, winning more matches and finals. All of sudden we started losing all finals, we had worse W/L record under him and it indicates that team performance went downward instead of improving even with much better than team.

 

Ganguly, Sehwag, SRT, Dravid, Yuvi those are some of our best ODI bats ever playing under Ganguly, yet he came up with worst records. What is possible explanation for that?

[Gollum]

Assuming we are talking about white ball cricket because Dhoni isn't fit to shine Dada's boots in tests, let us see what Dhoni mahaan has done in white ball cricket.

 

- 3 back to back 1st round exits in WT20 (2009, 2010 and 2012). In 2009 and 2010 we lost all matches in the Super eights, 0 out of 6...nada, the selections there were LOLworthy eg Jadeja ahead of Yuvraj against England 2009, selection of Jadeja in 2010 WC etc. One time he reached the finals on the back of Kohli (never has the fatso done anything in group stages/knockouts of any ICC trophy except that 2011 F) and the idiot screwed up (Rahane opening, UV ahead of in form Raina, no close in catcher for Ash against Sanga who was very tentative to start of with). 

 

-Gangu ran into the mighty Aussies in the F, Cool ran into Malinga's XI....delivered the 2nd most disgraceful performance by an Indian captain (before June 18th 2017 it was first on the list). Besides Gangu had the distinction of beating WC champs and red hot Aus in Nairobi as well as SA twice (2000-2002). The 2003 WC run where we beat Eng, Lanka, Pak, NZ was the stuff of legends....Dhoni at least would never have beaten that mighty Aus team (CB series Aus was a declined version with no Mcgrath, so doesn't count) 

 

-You guys keep talking about Gangu's losses against WI, Pak at home and some random tri series which i don't even remember. Cool lost a series in Bangladesh, isse bade sharam ki koi cheez ho hi nahi saktee, saala Toygers ke saamne naak kataya us mote ne. Will allow him leeway for the 2007-8 Aus and 2015 SA home series losses because they were decent opponents but what about the home series against Aus in 2009 and Aane Do series? Both were weak teams, that 2009 Aus team had jokers masquerading as bowlers, probably would have lost to a state Aussie side of the early 00s....joker captaincy all the way. Again 2005 Pak had Inzi, Yousuf, YK, Butt, peak Afridi, peak Gul...aane do series me Dhoni se bhe jyaada mota bhains Jamshed ne humaari keh ke le li. What happened to Cool's captaincy skills when we were being embarrassed at home against a D grade Pak unit?

 

- Dada had a decent overseas record, the 2003-04 CB series was at least as good as our 2007-08 campaign because the Aussie batting line up was younger and more in form then. In England he won Natwest, in SA he gave a fight, in NZ he lost 2-5 on doctored greentops. Let us see what Cool did, lost all ODIs/T20s in 2011 England, got kicked out of 2011-12 CB series, lost all ODIs in SA 2013, lost all ODIs in NZ 2014, again got kicked out from the tri series in Aus before WC 2015, a year later again got massacred in Aus against a Z grade Aussie team. Keep harping about the 2-5 loss in NZ 2002, do you bozos even know the depths to which NZ curators sunk to favor the home side then? Dhoni lost every single game in the 2014 NZ tour on fair pitches, what do you say about that? Against Aus in 2016 he single handedly lost us the series against a troll XI fielded by Aus as a prank.

 

Dhoni chamchas owe the rest of us (and Dada) an apology for this ludicrous comparison with the bonafide legend and Prince of Kolkata. An unconditional apology here in the thread itself if you guys are even halfway human. 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2018 by Gollum

[speedheat]

44 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

maine bhi to wahi bola, he was bowling well but selecting him in Odi was a poor call by ganguly

44 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

maine bhi to wahi bola, he was bowling well but selecting him in Odi was a poor call by ganguly

 

Doesnt mean he was poor, sachin dhoni, kohli are legends in Odi cricket and yuvi was bloody good

Doesnt mean if wasnt at their standard he wad avg.....he was quite good

 

Bhajji was a good odi bowler during that pahse 

He scored damn well against SA n Pak.....ur telling those had bad fast bowlers

He was the highest scorer from india in 2001 Sa odi series 

I dnt mix....read carefully

theek se padh 

 

Doesnt mean he was poor, sachin dhoni, kohli are legends in Odi cricket and yuvi was bloody good

Doesnt mean if wasnt at their standard he wad avg.....he was quite good

 

Bhajji was a good odi bowler during that pahse 

He scored damn well against SA n Pak.....ur telling those had bad fast bowlers

He was the highest scorer from india in 2001 Sa odi series 

I dnt mix....read carefully

theek se padh 

1. He was bowling well in test series so calling him in odi squad how is it a bad call? Lol  poor understanding by you

2. Never said dravid poor in odi called him average as compare to youvi or gaambhir in Odis that dhoni had as a captain in reply to trichomtric claim of ganguly having better resources again poor understanding by you

3.bhajji is crap odi bowler on any phase 

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Players/PlayerOpponents_ODI.asp?PlayerID=2138#bowl

Check his piss poor averages against top opponents, also he is a spinner and spinners always has one extra way to get batters out .

4. Ganguly averages 35 vs pak and 23 vs Aus in odi which is poor proving my point about his weakness against qulity pacers

 

 

Note: learn to understand things and never mix formats while debating cricket

Edited January 3, 2018 by speedheat

[mishra]

Fact is, Dada's team was always underdog but Dhoni's team was champion. But thats not the complete story. In Dada's day, Indian team was very often Bucknorised (2007-08 series) at varying degrees and Dada stood firm while MSD on the other hand seems to have never managed to get past his Ian Bell Trent Bridge stupidity.

Test matches are never a gentleman's game. Its bloody cut throat hook or crook stuff and MSD may have thought, is it worth it?  And hence despite beeing coolest, best at reading adapting and utilising resources and winning, its MSD's attitude which fails him.

 

 

[speedheat]

10 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Well if you read discussion, you quoted my post which was going along the lines that under Ganguly our ODI team regressed and that's why we have Azhar in discussion. 

 

India was performing better with worse team under Azhar, winning more matches and finals. All of sudden we started losing all finals, we had worse W/L record under him and it indicates that team performance went downward instead of improving even with much better than team.

 

Ganguly, Sehwag, SRT, Dravid, Yuvi those are some of our best ODI bats ever playing under Ganguly, yet he came up with worst records. What is possible explanation for that?

Never said our odi regressed under ganguly only explained you how he had the resources which were not better than what dhoni had as a captain, you didn't read my post I said apart from SRT and sehwagh who he had as a genuine game changer during odi loss to wi  and pak you quoted, uvi peak was under dhoni not ganguly, read those post again

[mishra]

@Gollum How do you explain MSD winning trophies then? MSD himself is biggest reason for those wins. Look at CSK's performance. Same players do so well under MSD. Why because MSD plays limited overs cricket like chessboard.Everyone knows, you can kill a queen with a pawn but he executes it.

[Ankit_sharma03]

6 minutes ago, speedheat said:

1. He was bowling well in test series so calling him in odi squad how is it a bad call? Lol  poor understanding by you

Coz he lacked ODI skill as a bowler, samne wale coach ne pakd liya tha

6 minutes ago, speedheat said:

2. Never said dravid poor in odi called him average as compare to youvi or gaambhir in Odis that dhoni had as a captain in reply to trichomtric claim of ganguly having better resources again poor understanding by you

U said avg ......

They both had their resources , dhoni a lil better 

Ganguly - himself, sachin, sehwag, dravid , heck even laxman played damn good odi knocks, irfan at start , bhajji, Srinath who at dip was better then many bowlers. More then half yuvi and kaif who ok . So by no means he had a bad team

Dhoni - Sehwag was same, sachin, himself, gambhir who bought by replacing ganguly which no one gives him credit, yuvi again was good for only a year or two under him, Zak . Yuvi was not the same fielder under him 

 

his 2nd phase- it was kohli n himself and on patta dhawan n rohit . Ashwin n jadeja were good at home, bhajji was better overseas

 

Itna bhi farq nhin that we make out

 

Dhoni emphasises on fielding n Running btw wkts which was the biggest diff. He won CB series in aus just check that team and tell me what player did he had. 

6 minutes ago, speedheat said:

3.bhajji is crap odi bowler on any phase 

No at start he was a good  Odi bowler infact he rightly 

6 minutes ago, speedheat said:

4. Ganguly averages 35 vs pak and 23 vs Aus in odi which is poor proving my point about his weakness against qulity pacers

35 was not a bad avg back then, he has played some terrific knocks agianst Pak.

Against that aus even rohit, dhawan stats wud have taken a hit and even kohli 

6 minutes ago, speedheat said:

Note: learn to understand things and never mix formats while debating cricket

i didnt ,tum theek se padhte nhin meri galti nhin and this is ur logic only-  He was bowling well in test series so calling him in odi squad how is it a bad call?