Speed,Swing &Performance of Fast Bowlers & Swing Bowlers in 2018 IPL

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, Cricket_Fan said:

What were the speeds of Chahar today?

 

125 k   to  140 k

[Cricket_Fan]

43 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Not talking about thrashing here ( which is common in T20s played on flat tracks )  ... but the tendency of a pacer to bowl at full pace or intensity ...  or not to do so.

 

This tendency to bowl at full pace or intensity is very helpful in test matches and reasonably helpful in ODIs.

Why would you want to give full pace for the batsman to use for his advantage on a flat patta and waste your energy unless you can reverse swing it?

[LORD_analyst]

1 hour ago, vishalvirsingh said:

he will get control very soon..that's not some thing which he cannot get.

umesh and varun spent 5years without control, sreesanth spent his whole career without control.....control requires experience....sounds good but in practicality control is very hard to get.

varun umesh and sreesanth were among most talented indian fast bowlers underachieved due to control.......only now umesh has developed some control after startting his career in 2012.

[LORD_analyst]

2 minutes ago, Cricket_Fan said:

Why would you want to give full pace for the batsman to use for his advantage on a flat patta and waste your energy unless you can reverse swing it?

he is too impresionable by speedgun....imo evry other icfers gets annoyed to see speedgun showing below 138ks....rajput bowled literally 4 overs on trott on corridor with outswing and 140ks ...lmao..avesh bowled a few balls 145ks and they are hyping him.....control with 135-140ks is much better than 145ks and no control.

 

zaheer khan bowling with 132-135ks in saf and england took much more wickets than varun aaron or umesh.....control+swing+england pitch=devastation.

[Suhaan]

7 hours ago, prudent_kreeda said:

      Thats because when there is no help in pitch , batters will simply play through the line and thrash even good / back of length balls .    Due to this bowlers have to go for variations and most of young ones do not have that control  for such variations .

Also if you noticed today , there was no attempt for variations . Just classic Test match bowling with pace  and with some movement it looked very good . 

 Can't expect same level of bowling on dead pitches . 

Can be a reason ,i think he was in good rythm,in pattas regular use of slowers are even more harmful,except for the one match he has been ordinary,I never said the pitch was same as the previuos ones..

[Suhaan]

5 hours ago, Cricket_Fan said:

Why would you want to give full pace for the batsman to use for his advantage on a flat patta and waste your energy unless you can reverse swing it?

Reverse swing in a t20??

[MCcricket]

People talk about stuff looks like haven't played a decent game of club or red ball cricket, a 19 year old being compare to a 29 year old is retarded.

Secondly pace cannot be taught but is a natural valuable asset, most valuable for a pacers, line length skills will develop,

Any coack anywhere in the world will salivate when they see a youngster bowling 145 to 150 k, some countries don't even have one bowler like that, now Zak started as a fast medium bowler who bowled 138 to 144 k initially, and also was a left armer, having no guidance n structure n history he too suffered like Srinath did n under achieved.

But no we have a culture, bio mechanics awareness, natural athletecism, in India it was rare to see even a fast medium bowler and most were mdium or medium fast, we never won anything away.

Bowlers like Avesh, Khalil, Saini, Prasidh, Kulwant, Ankit, Nagarkotti, Mavi are like gold dust, coz they have the most important ingredient n that is raw pace, given time fitness, skills will develop n from that lot we will see three hopefully world class bowlers who can win us games on any deck n that is priceless n a trundler can never do that.

Courtney, Zak, Marshall when they got older n lost about 5 k of speed were very experienced n skilled by then n compensated by lack of few k in speed by bowling with control n skill n that happpens later in the career n that to for some, it's funny to see people talk like retards.

[speedheat]

7 hours ago, Cricket_Fan said:

Why would you want to give full pace for the batsman to use for his advantage on a flat patta and waste your energy unless you can reverse swing it?

Reverse swing in t20s is rare, pace on the ball will always help you, it depends on where you land that ball, an accurate pace will always cause problems and can get you wickets on flattest of Pattas and dead wickets, look what jofra doing in this season its just accurate pace with some variations and nothing, starc in 2014.

[Rightarmfast]

8 hours ago, LORD_analyst said:

umesh and varun spent 5years without control, sreesanth spent his whole career without control.....control requires experience....sounds good but in practicality control is very hard to get.

varun umesh and sreesanth were among most talented indian fast bowlers underachieved due to control.......only now umesh has developed some control after startting his career in 2012.

Control requires a thinking mind. Not experience. You can spend your entire lifetime trying to push taj mahal from its place, it wont.

 

And the difference between being great and just a good bowler is the effort and hard work. Umesh and Aaron lacked a thinking brain as well as decent mentors. 

 

[Cricket_Fan]

32 minutes ago, speedheat said:

Reverse swing in t20s is rare, pace on the ball will always help you, it depends on where you land that ball, an accurate pace will always cause problems and can get you wickets on flattest of Pattas and dead wickets, look what jofra doing in this season its just accurate pace with some variations and nothing, starc in 2014.

I was talking in general about Reverse swing.And both Archer and Starc are blokes who can hit 150 at will and bowl accurate yorkers, skills that Ankit doesn't possess.

[express bowling]

9 hours ago, Cricket_Fan said:

Why would you want to give full pace for the batsman to use for his advantage on a flat patta and waste your energy unless you can reverse swing it?

 

When you are bowling stump directed length balls to tuck up batters,  yorkers  or bouncers then full pace is the best option.

 

If you are bowling wide then not giving pace is the best option.

 

Bowling proper slower balls is a different thing and are used on slower and flat  tracks.

[Mosher]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

Control requires a thinking mind. Not experience. You can spend your entire lifetime trying to push taj mahal from its place, it wont.

 

And the difference between being great and just a good bowler is the effort and hard work. Umesh and Aaron lacked a thinking brain as well as decent mentors. 

 

Umesh started playing with red ball very late in his career I think that's one of the reasons for his lack of control initially and probably needed some tinkering with his basics to get the ball coming out of the hand correctly. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Mosher

[speedheat]

2 hours ago, Cricket_Fan said:

I was talking in general about Reverse swing.And both Archer and Starc are blokes who can hit 150 at will and bowl accurate yorkers, skills that Ankit doesn't possess.

Ankit does has skills of starck n jofra,, he can move that ball from fuller side of good length he can tuck the batter, he has accurate yorker which dips in late with late swing on it, he bowls around 138kph to 147kph which  is good enough pace to be successful, but the point is any young pacer should be encouraged to bowl with his full pace without sacrificing accuracy even if  the conditions are against you that only help him, he shouldn't use the excuse of conditions, dead wicket flat pattas to reduce his pace.

[express bowling]

11 hours ago, LORD_analyst said:

he is too impresionable by speedgun....imo evry other icfers gets annoyed to see speedgun showing below 138ks....rajput bowled literally 4 overs on trott on corridor with outswing and 140ks ...lmao..avesh bowled a few balls 145ks and they are hyping him.....control with 135-140ks is much better than 145ks and no control.

 

zaheer khan bowling with 132-135ks in saf and england took much more wickets than varun aaron or umesh.....control+swing+england pitch=devastation.

 

 

A few points 

 

----   Speedguns often give an idea whether a pacer is bowling with full intensity and is in good rhythm.  When a young pacer is bowling 5 kph slower than he is capable of ...  it often points towards a lack of intensity   or laziness    or lack of fitness     or  lack of rhythm ...  which need rectification.  Like Shami in SA  (  Subsequently it was found that he was not focused due to brewing troubles with his wife  )

 

----   I think the biggest beneficiary of regular usage of speed guns have been countries like India and Sri Lanka.  This is because there was a belief that Indians could not bowl quick. Even when they did, they were made to beleive that they were not as quick as their Pakistani or English or South African counterparts. Like it happened to Srinath. This made them feel like 2nd class citizens. 

 

Regular use of speed guns gave them a tangible benchmark to achieve ...  140 k, 145 k, 150 k.   Young pacers nowadays have personal speedguns to see whether they are achieving these benchmarks.

 

This is giving them confidence that they don't have any genetic shortcomings which are stopping them from becoming world class pacers.  And the results are showing ... we have 3 pacers in tests and 2 pacers in ODIs who have low averages now. Our bench strength is huge.

 

----  When a bowler's optimum speed is 135 k to 140 k  and he is bowling at that and bowling well ...   no one criticizes him on ICF.   A good example would be Bhuvneshwar in test matches in the last 2 years.  He is praised that he has increased his speed to 135 k to 140 k... and bowling better as a result. No one cribs that he is not bowling 145 k. We all want him in the test side in tests played outside Asia.

 

----  Zaheer Khan was a very talented, skilled and thinking bowler.  But he ended up with a test average of almost 33. This is underachievement in my opinion.   He was capable of bowling 135 k to 145 k ...  but chose to be a 130 k to 140 k bowler. A few good series especially in S.A. and England, does not define a bowler. 

 

We want low average pacers who will do well everywhere.

 

----  Pace and skills do not have to be  " either /  or  "  .   There will be some pacers who will have pace but low skills. There will be others who will have low pace but skills.  We want pacers with both.   Like Bumrah and Shami.  Like Umesh of IPL 2018.

 

----  High pace seamers are more important for  Asian countries especially in test matches ...  because we play atleast  60% of our tests on the slow Asian pitches ...  where reverse swing at high pace is the preferred weapon for pacers.

 

----  People are excited about Avesh Khan just as a rookie prospect.  Primarily because he has the combination of height , bounce and pace which is not common among Indian pacers. ( Most Indian quick pacers are either short or medium height not exceeding 6'0" ).  He is not thought of as a finished product but has to play more of FC ,  List A and A-team games... and improve his skills.

 

----  Everyone is happy and excited about the spell Rajpoot bowled yesterday. No one cares that he did not bowl near 150 k.  This is because he was bowling with a lot of intensity.  

 

Having watched Rajpoot bowl for quite a few years, including FC, this is the issue that he has.  He seems to drop in intensity a bit too often. Needs to rectify it.

 

----  Final point ....  We can't compare a rookie like Avesh with Rajpoot, who has been playing FC for 6 seasons, has played multiple A-team series and is on the verge of a Team India call-up. They are at different stages of development.

Edited May 21, 2018 by express bowling

[express bowling]

16 minutes ago, speedheat said:

but the point is any young pacer should be encouraged to bowl with his full pace without sacrificing accuracy even if  the conditions are against you that only help him, he shouldn't use the excuse of conditions, dead wicket flat pattas to reduce his pace.

 

Well said Speedbhai  !

 

The habit of reducing speed is like over-eating.  I will just eat more when I am sad    or  happy     or have nothing to do     or have too much to do ......   and the result     

Edited May 21, 2018 by express bowling

[express bowling]

15 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Rajpoot can be a good option too for England but I would like him to get fitter. He is looking a bit flabby right now. I hate flabby fast bowlers. Big reason that put me off from Shami. You dont deserve to play for India if you have excess flab. 

 

I watched Rajpoot's  entire spell again today on Hotstar.

 

He has 3 very important qualities needed in tests outside Asia.   Consistent shape away from the batsman, consistent off-stump channel line and  natural bounce and height.

 

As he is in good form now ...  I am in favour of choosing him for the England test series.

 

He will give an additional advantage over swing bowlers like Chahar ... when the ball is not swinging, he can hit the deck hard and get seam movement and bounce.

 

Fitness is a very important issue for tests ...  He can do what Bumrah was told to do and did successfully before the SA test series ...  go to the NCA and train so that he can bowl at pace for 20 overs a day.

 

He can take a 15 day rest and train at the NCA.

 

Only concern will be his habit of losing intensity from time to time, which he needs to rectify.

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by express bowling

[Nikhil_cric]

19 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

I disagree! However, I choose to walkaway from this argument. If you believe your argument about stress fracture and age, good for you!

I don't think rkt is wrong in his observation even if his reasons may or may not be right. If you observe closely most fast bowlers - Starc, Johnson, Hazelwood, Rabada and others in history all suffered stress fractures to the back before the age of around 24  despite having biomechanically decent actions  even early in their careers. However, the older they got Johnno, Starc and Hazlewood don't seem to have back issues. Bond kept having stress fractures into his late twenties because of his counter rotating bowling action and pattinson because he never really healed from one of his earlier stress fractures. Of course gebetics also matters - guys with loose, elastic bodies are less prone to stress fractures etc. 

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

I don't think rkt is wrong in his observation even if his reasons may or may not be right. If you observe closely most fast bowlers - Starc, Johnson, Hazelwood, Rabada and others in history all suffered stress fractures to the back before the age of around 24  despite having biomechanically decent actions  even early in their careers. However, the older they got Johnno, Starc and Hazlewood don't seem to have back issues. Bond kept having stress fractures into his late twenties because of his counter rotating bowling action and pattinson because he never really healed from one of his earlier stress fractures. Of course gebetics also matters - guys with loose, elastic bodies are less prone to stress fractures etc. 

Read this.

 

https://physioworks.com.au/injuries-conditions-1/lumbar-stress-fractures-cricket-fast-bowlers

[Rightarmfast]

3 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

I don't think rkt is wrong in his observation even if his reasons may or may not be right. If you observe closely most fast bowlers - Starc, Johnson, Hazelwood, Rabada and others in history all suffered stress fractures to the back before the age of around 24  despite having biomechanically decent actions  even early in their careers. However, the older they got Johnno, Starc and Hazlewood don't seem to have back issues. Bond kept having stress fractures into his late twenties because of his counter rotating bowling action and pattinson because he never really healed from one of his earlier stress fractures. Of course gebetics also matters - guys with loose, elastic bodies are less prone to stress fractures etc. 

Knowledge from google cannot be taken seriously. If you are a fireman, you will get burnt. But you will get burnt when your technique is wrong. Anybody who is getting injured in sports, is getting injured because of incorrect training and practices. 

 

If a kid is exerting excess pressure on his back, or has an incorrect bowling posture, just to get extra pace, he will get injured. It is natural. 

Anybody with a freeflowing action will have least injury. I have myself been in sports since the age of 8-9 yrs. Been there done that. While I don't claim to know it all, but someone giving google as a source of information, without understanding the dynamics is hilarious to me.

 

Btw, the topic of the conversation was stamina, and not stress fractures. There's a limit to being irrelevant to the topic, and yet trying to bulldoze your point. That's outright rude, lacks courtesy and shows least respect towards the other.

[rkt.india]

14 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Knowledge from google cannot be taken seriously. If you are a fireman, you will get burnt. But you will get burnt when your technique is wrong. Anybody who is getting injured in sports, is getting injured because of incorrect training and practices. 

 

If a kid is exerting excess pressure on his back, or has an incorrect bowling posture, just to get extra pace, he will get injured. It is natural. 

Anybody with a freeflowing action will have least injury. I have myself been in sports since the age of 8-9 yrs. Been there done that. While I don't claim to know it all, but someone giving google as a source of information, without understanding the dynamics is hilarious to me.

 

Btw, the topic of the conversation was stamina, and not stress fractures. There's a limit to being irrelevant to the topic, and yet trying to bulldoze your point. That's outright rude, lacks courtesy and shows least respect towards the other.

In cricket, stamina comes by bowling a lot, 19-20 year olds don't bowl a lot of bowl 145kph, teams are always vary of workload that lead to those stress injuries. Yes, bowling actions do play a part but age also is one of the factor and you can't dismiss it saying googled knowledge. You have little idea about sports science. Even the greatest of the sportsmen lack perspective and have clue about what they are saying. So, it doesn't matter since when you are in sports or not. You are trying to refute specific studies that have been done about fast bowling. Mean age for stress fractures in fast bowlers is 20.