rtmohanlal Posted December 19, 2018 Share Posted December 19, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, zen said: *Sachin Fanboy mode on* We should also account for innings where Sachin was wrongly given out. Surely, it is not Sachin's fault to suffer for umpiring mistakes? And then he played in ODIs too, where Lara was not too serious. If Sachin too focused on tests more and was less serious about ODIs, his average could have been even higher in tests After removing his initial and later tests, and adding an avg of 5 runs for innings where he was given out wrongly, and adding 5 more to his tally as if he had focused on tests more he would have averaged more, his avg is now 67 from 177 tests Lara was always lucky. Even when he was out, umpires gave him not out. Opposition dropped his catches too and failed to appeal when he was LBW. That added approx. 5 runs to his avg. So if we subtract that, Lara's average would be roughly 48. Accounting for factors not thought of yet (as I am too busy trying to figure out how to show Sachin stats in better light), I will subtract 1 more run from Lara's average to make it 47 This means Sachin averaged 67 and Lara 47. As we can see the average difference is 20 And the basket of bowlers, who started out in 90s, is not representative enough. BD and Zim bowlers performed equally well when playing against Ind. In fact, bowlers peak when they bowl to Sachin so even a minnow bowler turns into a McGrath or a Warne. And McGrath and Warne crap in their pants when they bowl to Sachin so they become more like minnow bowlers. Sachin average is less when McGrath + Warne are in the 11 but that is more due to Sachin playing loose shots to these scared bowlers than these bowlers getting him out. Considering this, we should create a basket of bowlers from Zim and BD We can also add runs or 100s from all formats. That would easily bury Lara in tests There is no way Lara can be better in tests. I have watched both of them and Sachin was better. I may be an Indian cricket team supporter but I am even a bigger cricket supporter so my impartial analysis, along with what I have seen, says that Sachin was definitely better There is a reason why Sachin is referred to as God of Cricket in India. Have you seen Lara (or any non-Indian great) being referred to as God of Cricket in Ind? That also shows Sachin is better. Just think, how can a large percentage of 1.3B people be wrong? *Sachin Fanboy mode off* Back to reality, apples to apples: Excluding BD and Zim, Lara has played 224 innings: Records type batting analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Primary team West Indies Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka ulOrdered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s unfiltered 1990-2006 131 232 6 11953 400* 52.88 19753 60.51 34 48 17 1559 88 Profile filtered 1990-2006 126 224 6 11517 400* 52.83 19211 59.95 32 47 17 1504 81 Similarly, Tendulkar at his 224th inning vs these sides: Records type batting analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies Start of match date less than or equal to 13 Aug 2008 Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 unfiltered 1989-2013 200 329 33 15921 248* 53.78 51 68 14 Profile filtered 1989-2008 136 224 21 10403 241* 51.24 33 46 13 This is apples to apples at the completion of their respective 224 innings mark They have the same # of 50+ scores with Lara having a 50 more, while Tendulkar has a 100 more. Therefore, both of them are equally consistent Lara has scored 1114 more! (highlights the ability to score bigger 100s) Lara averages 53 with just 6 not outs; Tendulkar averages 51 with 21 not outs you can conclude what ever you want... it is your right ..... as I maintain I am not here to win in arguement against any body .The data I put forward appealed in common sense as most sensible to me, and hence my placing of Sachin above Lara. For that you need not stereotype people with different opinions with 'Sachin Fanboy' label etc etc .That is cheap,silly, immature LKG kid mentality. You put forward various data in table form. And I appreciated the facts involved in these data , though I didn't accept with the basic criteria. That's all , isn't it??? So you believe in your conslusions , and I shall stick with my conclusions. That's it. Edited December 19, 2018 by rtmohanlal Link to comment
CSK Fan Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 9 hours ago, zen said: *Sachin Fanboy mode on* We should also account for innings where Sachin was wrongly given out. Surely, it is not Sachin's fault to suffer for umpiring mistakes? And then he played in ODIs too, where Lara was not too serious. If Sachin too focused on tests more and was less serious about ODIs, his average could have been even higher in tests After removing his initial and later tests, and adding an avg of 5 runs for innings where he was given out wrongly, and adding 5 more to his tally as if he had focused on tests more he would have averaged more, his avg is now 67 from 177 tests Lara was always lucky. Even when he was out, umpires gave him not out. Opposition dropped his catches too and failed to appeal when he was LBW. That added approx. 5 runs to his avg. So if we subtract that, Lara's average would be roughly 48. Accounting for factors not thought of yet (as I am too busy trying to figure out how to show Sachin stats in better light), I will subtract 1 more run from Lara's average to make it 47 This means Sachin averaged 67 and Lara 47. As we can see the average difference is 20 And the basket of bowlers, who started out in 90s, is not representative enough. BD and Zim bowlers performed equally well when playing against Ind. In fact, bowlers peak when they bowl to Sachin so even a minnow bowler turns into a McGrath or a Warne. And McGrath and Warne crap in their pants when they bowl to Sachin so they become more like minnow bowlers. Sachin average is less when McGrath + Warne are in the 11 but that is more due to Sachin playing loose shots to these scared bowlers than these bowlers getting him out. Considering this, we should create a basket of bowlers from Zim and BD We can also add runs or 100s from all formats. That would easily bury Lara in tests There is no way Lara can be better in tests. I have watched both of them and Sachin was better. I may be an Indian cricket team supporter but I am even a bigger cricket supporter so my impartial analysis, along with what I have seen, says that Sachin was definitely better There is a reason why Sachin is referred to as God of Cricket in India. Have you seen Lara (or any non-Indian great) being referred to as God of Cricket in Ind? That also shows Sachin is better. Just think, how can a large percentage of 1.3B people be wrong? *Sachin Fanboy mode off* Back to reality, apples to apples: Excluding BD and Zim, Lara has played 224 innings: Records type batting analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Primary team West Indies Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka ulOrdered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s unfiltered 1990-2006 131 232 6 11953 400* 52.88 19753 60.51 34 48 17 1559 88 Profile filtered 1990-2006 126 224 6 11517 400* 52.83 19211 59.95 32 47 17 1504 81 Similarly, Tendulkar at his 224th inning vs these sides: Records type batting analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies Start of match date less than or equal to 13 Aug 2008 Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 unfiltered 1989-2013 200 329 33 15921 248* 53.78 51 68 14 Profile filtered 1989-2008 136 224 21 10403 241* 51.24 33 46 13 This is apples to apples at the completion of their respective 224 innings mark They have the same # of 50+ scores with Lara having a 50 more, while Tendulkar has a 100 more. Therefore, both of them are equally consistent Lara has scored 1114 more! (highlights the ability to score bigger 100s) Lara averages 53 with just 6 not outs; Tendulkar averages 51 with 21 not outs Dude you are the person who invented RPT just to put sachin down. You calling others terms like fanboys hazam nahi hoti. Sachin has gone down in history as one of the best ever and most experts agree he was better than lara, wisden has him as 2nd best batsmen after bradman. Your mental gymnastics and typing big posts on ICF is not gonna change that raki05 1 Link to comment
CSK Fan Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 6 hours ago, rtmohanlal said: you can conclude what ever you want... it is your right ..... as I maintain I am not here to win in arguement against any body .The data I put forward appealed in common sense as most sensible to me, and hence my placing of Sachin above Lara. For that you need not stereotype people with different opinions with 'Sachin Fanboy' label etc etc .That is cheap,silly, immature LKG kid mentality. You put forward various data in table form. And I appreciated the facts involved in these data , though I didn't accept with the basic criteria. That's all , isn't it??? So you believe in your conslusions , and I shall stick with my conclusions. That's it. Most experts, past and present players, wisden, history books, all place sachin above Lara. But @zen does not so I guess everyone else is a fan boy. I have always mentioned its better to be a fanboy than dislike someone so much you have to come up with stuff like RPT raki05 1 Link to comment
Laaloo Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 10 hours ago, Trichromatic said: If this account is also banned like your other accounts, will you create another one and continue trolling to waste resources of this forum? I wish you would give me the opportunity to kick out csk trash from ICF. Can never get enough. raki05 1 Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 28 minutes ago, CSK Fan said: Most experts, past and present players, wisden, history books, all place sachin above Lara. But @zen does not so I guess everyone else is a fan boy. I have always mentioned its better to be a fanboy than dislike someone so much you have to come up with stuff like RPT more importantly it is about the matter of ' precious time,effort & mental disturbance' . I am only willing to welcome different opinions with out any hesitation. But it is when people stoops to the levels of 'immature dumb asses ' to make others accept their claims at any cost that I have serious problems. That is extremely irritating & frustrating from every point of view. Along with it comes stereotyping people with labels like 'fanboys' etc etc.As per general perception, people who are aged at least 21, can't label others as 'fan boys' etc etc whom they differ with their opinions. It makes one wonder as to whether the persons with whom we are debating are some immature LKG kids or not. It would be so better if these type of people do not come to arguements for a start. Link to comment
zen Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 (edited) More fun facts .... vs the 4 strongest teams that both of them played against View overall figures [change view] Primary team Australia or England or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka Start of match date between 1 Jan 1989 and 1 Jan 2014 Totals in terms of batting team Ordered by win/loss ratio (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 6 of 6 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/L Ave RPO Inns HS LS Australia 1989-2013 280 161 59 0 60 2.728 38.84 3.30 506 735 47 South Africa 1992-2013 209 101 50 0 58 2.020 37.44 3.04 368 682 84 Pakistan 1989-2014 199 75 65 0 59 1.153 32.84 3.06 357 765 49 England 1989-2013 293 106 98 0 89 1.081 33.44 3.04 539 710 46 Lara Records type batting analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Primary team West Indies Opposition team Australia or England or Pakistan or South Africa Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s unfiltered 1990-2006 131 232 6 11953 400* 52.88 19753 60.51 34 48 17 1559 88 Profile filtered 1990-2006 90 164 5 8686 400* 54.62 14185 61.23 24 34 12 1183 64 Tendulkar Records type batting analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Opposition team Australia or England or Pakistan or South Africa Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s unfiltered 1989-2013 200 329 33 15921 248* 53.78 29437+ 54.04* 51 68 14 2058+ 69 Profile filtered 1989-2013 114 199 18 8963 241* 49.51 16727 53.58 27 41 9 1174 42 Lara averages 54.62 w/ just 5 not outs Tendulkar averages 49.51 with 18 not outs (Avg falls below 50) /discussion Edited December 20, 2018 by zen Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, zen said: More fun facts .... vs the 4 strongest teams that both of them played against View overall figures [change view] Primary team Australia or England or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka Start of match date between 1 Jan 1989 and 1 Jan 2014 Totals in terms of batting team Ordered by win/loss ratio (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 6 of 6 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/L Ave RPO Inns HS LS Australia 1989-2013 280 161 59 0 60 2.728 38.84 3.30 506 735 47 South Africa 1992-2013 209 101 50 0 58 2.020 37.44 3.04 368 682 84 Pakistan 1989-2014 199 75 65 0 59 1.153 32.84 3.06 357 765 49 England 1989-2013 293 106 98 0 89 1.081 33.44 3.04 539 710 46 Lara Records type batting analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Primary team West Indies Opposition team Australia or England or Pakistan or South Africa Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s unfiltered 1990-2006 131 232 6 11953 400* 52.88 19753 60.51 34 48 17 1559 88 Profile filtered 1990-2006 90 164 5 8686 400* 54.62 14185 61.23 24 34 12 1183 64 Tendulkar Records type batting analysis [change type] View career summary [change view] Opposition team Australia or England or Pakistan or South Africa Ordered by default (ascending) Return to query menu Cleared query menu Career averages Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 4s 6s unfiltered 1989-2013 200 329 33 15921 248* 53.78 29437+ 54.04* 51 68 14 2058+ 69 Profile filtered 1989-2013 114 199 18 8963 241* 49.51 16727 53.58 27 41 9 1174 42 Lara averages 54.62 w/ just 5 not outs Tendulkar averages 49.51 with 18 not outs (Avg falls below 50) just curious... how old are you?? Link to comment
zen Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Just now, rtmohanlal said: just curious... how old are you?? probably older than you based on the fact that you have resorted to personal attacks (another Sachin fanboy hallmark) .... and you are posting as if those who think Lara is is better should not be posting stats Get your head checked Link to comment
rtmohanlal Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, zen said: probably older than you based on the fact that you have resorted to personal attacks (another Sachin fanboy hallmark) .... and you are posting as if those who think Lara is is better should not be posting stats Get your head checked ohh yes... labelling as 'Sachin fan boy' , terming 'clueless' etc were started by me... is n't it????? Also you are now creating fancy stories like you are posting as if those who think Lara is is better should not be posting stats. I infact only said ' I appreciate posting stats but I can't always agree with the criteria put forward.' So it can be easily understood as to who needs a head checking.. So ... let's stop for now .... not interested in further discussion. Link to comment
zen Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said: ohh yes... labelling as 'Sachin fan boy' , terming 'clueless' etc were started by me... is n't it????? Also you are now creating fancy stories like you are posting as if those who think Lara is is better should not be posting stats. I infact only said ' I appreciate posting stats but I can't always agree with the criteria put forward.' So it can be easily understood as to who needs a head checking.. So ... let's stop for now .... not interested in further discussion. cool down kid .... I understand it is a shock to see Tendulkar's avg fall below 50 vs the top 4 sides but it will sink in Link to comment
Adi BB Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Nope not yet ,hasn't scored a double ton in SENA yet and chokes way too often in the fourth innings when he could have won a couple of matches in saf and England when chasing modest totals Link to comment
Adi BB Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 On 12/18/2018 at 7:00 PM, CG said: I admire Kohli's Mental Strength and His Work Ethic.He is Like Steve Waugh.On Tough Pitches His Concentration Makes Him Great.He Has Struggled Against Spin.As a Batsman He Does not use his feet or sweep against spin.Neither he plays the cut or has many Blackfoot strokes but his Front foot defence and Strokes are at different level. Sent from my Nokia 7 plus using Tapatalk true,virat's mental strength is next to none but his range of shots in tests are not wide ,his approach is a bit rigid at times .guys like sachin ,Lara would manufacture shots and at their peaks user to manhandle great spinners ,kohli I am afraid is not great against spinners ,very effective but not great . He does not manufacture shots like sweep,reverse sweep ,late cuts etc that's why i say he is too rigid in his approach ,guys like younis,sachin,Lara would sweep and cut Lyon into oblivion Link to comment
rkt.india Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 (edited) would like to know their stats excluding dead rubbers. Edited December 20, 2018 by rkt.india Link to comment
rkt.india Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Adi BB said: true,virat's mental strength is next to none but his range of shots in tests are not wide ,his approach is a bit rigid at times .guys like sachin ,Lara would manufacture shots and at their peaks user to manhandle great spinners ,kohli I am afraid is not great against spinners ,very effective but not great . He does not manufacture shots like sweep,reverse sweep ,late cuts etc that's why i say he is too rigid in his approach ,guys like younis,sachin,Lara would sweep and cut Lyon into oblivion his only resort to spinners is lunge forward as far as he can. he struggle to read he length against spinners and does not go back and across like Dravid and SRT used to go. They would quickly rock back and cut the ball and would only lunge forwards if it the ball was too full. Like his dismissal in last innings, he could have easily played that on backfoot. the best way to play an off spinner is back and across and on the backfoot. Edited December 20, 2018 by rkt.india Adi BB 1 Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Kohli is ahead of Tendulkar in quiet a few areas much like Laxman/Dravid/Sehwag were ahead of Tendulkar in some areas. I want him to dominate off spinners. That is one area i really desperately want Kohli to achieve. Apart from odd freak instances Indians rarely had issues against finger spinners. Laaloo 1 Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, rkt.india said: his only resort to spinners is lunge forward as far as he can. he struggle to read he length against spinners and does not go back and across like Dravid and SRT used to go. They would quickly rock back and cut the ball and would only lunge forwards if it the ball was too full. Like his dismissal in last innings, he could have easily played that on backfoot. the best way to play an off spinner is back and across and on the backfoot. It is funny not a single Indian batsman does that. Having seen the likes of Azharuddin, Sidhu, Tendulkar, Dravid, Sehwag who all could play against the turn of the ball at will, this is a shocking scenario. Link to comment
Vilander Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 13 hours ago, Muloghonto said: Unless Kohli turns into one of those 1 in 10 players who have better careers in their 30s than 20s, there is no chance in Tests. Kohli is a very good, but by no stretch is he even in an alltime great conversation. He's faced far weaker bowling lineups in general and he has obvious technical flaws that are much bigger than Lara's or Tendulkar's (which is non-existent for Tendy). Nope all that is bs. Sorry not interested in arguing here. Switchblade and express bowling 2 Link to comment
Vilander Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 12 hours ago, Jamadagni said: But Kohli performed suerbly against two best fast bowling teams(AUS&SA). He did well against Rabada, Philander, Steyn, Ngidi, Johnson, Harris, Starc, Cummins, Hazelwood. In fact, I don't think Sachin ever performed or even faced a complete pace bowling attack like Kohli did this year alone in SA(Rabada, Philander, Ngidi) and AUS(Starc, Hazelwood, Cummins). So that argument of weaker bowling lineups has no merit. Kohli has just entered his peak years. There's quite a few more left. I expect him to up his average to around 58 in the next 3-4 years and a small decline for a year or two, ending up with an average between 56-57, which would surely place him above Sachin. Top post. Strictly based on facts from the past few series never seen an Indian batsman dominate good pace attacks in testing conditions like Kohli. Even dravid was a bit more subdued..others not nearly good enough. Link to comment
Adi BB Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 20 minutes ago, rkt.india said: his only resort to spinners is lunge forward as far as he can. he struggle to read he length against spinners and does not go back and across like Dravid and SRT used to go. They would quickly rock back and cut the ball and would only lunge forwards if it the ball was too full. Like his dismissal in last innings, he could have easily played that on backfoot. the best way to play an off spinner is back and across and on the backfoot. Yup kohli is a great backfoot player ,why doesn't he play Lyon and off spinners on the backfoot in India he played moen and Rashid very well Link to comment
Muloghonto Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 7 hours ago, Vilander said: Nope all that is bs. Sorry not interested in arguing here. unsubstantiated beleif systems are rarely worth arguing with. Very wise. Link to comment
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