Shami's impact in Indian condition is phenomenal

[Mosher]

37 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

?????

Someone made this comment on ICF that Shami needs to be dropped because he can't bat 

[Ankit_sharma03]

13 minutes ago, Mosher said:

Someone made this comment on ICF that Shami needs to be dropped because he can't bat 

who was that genius ?

[rtmohanlal]

Hoped for Pant  to  get a chance against these minnow level  BAN team.At least in the 2nd test Pant, Bhuvi &  Gill/Vihari need  to be played.  If not  in these  type of matches , when is Kohli  going to experiment which should be a must in the long term process??

[sandeep]

8 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Hoped for Pant  to  get a chance against these minnow level  BAN team.At least in the 2nd test Pant, Bhuvi &  Gill/Vihari need  to be played.  If not  in these  type of matches , when is Kohli  going to experiment which should be a must in the long term process??

Other to satisfy the armchair expert and fan's "new guy" itch, what exactly is the crying need to push for Gill in test cricket?  

[putrevus]

9 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Hoped for Pant  to  get a chance against these minnow level  BAN team.At least in the 2nd test Pant, Bhuvi &  Gill/Vihari need  to be played.  If not  in these  type of matches , when is Kohli  going to experiment which should be a must in the long term process??

Spot on you can make a case for Shami and Ishant also to be rested for this series.

[SK_IH]

What a sight it is watching him reverse swing the ball. That over to chotu Rahim was too class bowling.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

Other to satisfy the armchair expert and fan's "new guy" itch, what exactly is the crying need to push for Gill in test cricket?  

 

Apart from big superstars, preferably in prime form,  it is these " young super players " who draw fans to the game. And test cricket and even ODIs desperately need fan interest.

 

Look at how much interest Naseem Shah is creating even before debut. Imran Khan Jr. , who supposedly bowled well too but is 32 years old, is hardly being talked about.

Edited November 14, 2019 by express bowling

[sandeep]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Apart from big superstars, preferably in prime form,  it is these " young super players " who draw fans to the game. And test cricket and even ODIs desperately need fan interest.

 

Look at how much interest Naseem Shah is creating even before debut. Imran Khan Jr. , who supposedly bowled well too but is 32 years old, is hardly being talked about.

There is a thing called loyalty.  You cannot build a team if you use and throw players.  There has to some systemic pathway that the players who are working day and night, investing their blood, sweat and tears into, can put their trust in. 

 

Pakistan's example is a bad one, because to be blunt, they've been a shyte team for a decade, and need to get desperate in unearthing prospects. India does not have that problem - far from it. 

 

This is not to say that talent shouldn't find its way to the top, and true prodigies shouldn't get expedited.  The Indian team slots open up on a need basis.  This is the same team that gave opportunities to Prithvi Shaw in tests, Gill in ODIs.  I am very optimistic about the potential of a Mohammed Siraj in test cricket.  But why should Siraj get a debut ahead of more games for an Umesh Yadav.  If you start randomly discarding guys like that, you discourage them from making optimal efforts for the team's benefit.  You break the system.  Its one thing for casual fans to clamor and lust after new names, but selectors don't have that luxury, neither does team management. 

 

I'm not against giving opportunities to new and young players - when its something that's necessary for the team's short and long term future.  I just opened a thread recommending that Washington Sundar be given a proper opportunity to bat at #5 in white ball cricket.  The team has tried making a part-time bowler out of many a batsman - Kohli, kedar etc.  Sundar is a proven bowling talent, and has shown that he has batting potential.  For the next ODI WC in India, we will need a spin bowling allrounder.  Jadeja and Axar have failed to deliver with the bat - there is a chance Sundar can. 

 

 

[express bowling]

13 minutes ago, sandeep said:

There is a thing called loyalty.  You cannot build a team if you use and throw players.  There has to some systemic pathway that the players who are working day and night, investing their blood, sweat and tears into, can put their trust in. 

 

Pakistan's example is a bad one, because to be blunt, they've been a shyte team for a decade, and need to get desperate in unearthing prospects. India does not have that problem - far from it. 

 

This is not to say that talent shouldn't find its way to the top, and true prodigies shouldn't get expedited.  The Indian team slots open up on a need basis.  This is the same team that gave opportunities to Prithvi Shaw in tests, Gill in ODIs.  I am very optimistic about the potential of a Mohammed Siraj in test cricket.  But why should Siraj get a debut ahead of more games for an Umesh Yadav.  If you start randomly discarding guys like that, you discourage them from making optimal efforts for the team's benefit.  You break the system.  Its one thing for casual fans to clamor and lust after new names, but selectors don't have that luxury, neither does team management. 

 

I'm not against giving opportunities to new and young players - when its something that's necessary for the team's short and long term future.  I just opened a thread recommending that Washington Sundar be given a proper opportunity to bat at #5 in white ball cricket.  The team has tried making a part-time bowler out of many a batsman - Kohli, kedar etc.  Sundar is a proven bowling talent, and has shown that he has batting potential.  For the next ODI WC in India, we will need a spin bowling allrounder.  Jadeja and Axar have failed to deliver with the bat - there is a chance Sundar can. 

 

You asked, " what exactly is the crying need to push for Gill in test cricket "  and I replied regarding the need.

 

But jùst because the need is there does not mean that I am asking for deserving players or proven performers to be thrown out just to incorporate young prodigies.

 

But we have seen too many " old " TTFs  make a comeback or being persisted with despite failures.  

 

Plus there are matches against weak teams.

 

This is where young prodigies may come in ... but not always happening.

 

Siraj could have debuted against WI in 2018 ... but Shardul debuted instead. These are the chances which need to be utilized.

 

P.s - The Pakistan example is relevant because it showcases fan psyche ... not asking us to emulate them.  We can follow our own system keeping in mind this fan psyche.

Edited November 14, 2019 by express bowling

[express bowling]

@sandeep 

 

Take this test for example.

 

Could we not have tried Siraj in place of Ishant against a weak opposition ?

 

Ishant has usually been average while bowling in tests in India.

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Siraj could have debuted against WI in 2018 ... but Shardul debuted instead. These are the chances which need to be utilized.

 

100% agree on this.

 

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

The Pakistan example is relevant because it showcases fan psyche ... not asking us to emulate them.  We can follow our own system keeping in mind this fan psyche

My point was that Pakistan selection can justify the selection of a rookie - they have empty slots for pace bowlers to fill.  India by contrast has a queue on the bench.    

 

"fan psyche" cannot and should not enter into the equation for team selection - sorry, but this is black and white, open and shut.

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Siraj could have debuted against WI in 2018 ... but Shardul debuted instead. These are the chances which need to be utilized.

 

100% agree on this.

 

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

The Pakistan example is relevant because it showcases fan psyche ... not asking us to emulate them.  We can follow our own system keeping in mind this fan psyche

My point was that Pakistan selection can justify the selection of a rookie - they have empty slots for pace bowlers to fill.  India by contrast has a queue on the bench.    

 

"fan psyche" cannot and should not enter into the equation for team selection - sorry, but this is black and white, open and shut.

[sandeep]

41 minutes ago, express bowling said:

@sandeep 

 

Take this test for example.

 

Could we not have tried Siraj in place of Ishant against a weak opposition ?

 

Ishant has usually been average while bowling in tests in India.

No. Because that is screwing over Ishant. Who deserves better. 

[Mosher]

 

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

No. Because that is screwing over Ishant. Who deserves better. 

 

Ishant has not done well in India.  Even Ishant 2.0 of the last 3 years has not done well in India because he lacks the skid off the surface or consistent pace in the air needed on slower surfaces. And neither is he a master of reverse swing bowling or stump directed bowling 

 

So he does not deserve better while playing in India.

 

(  Ishant 2.0 deserves a lot in tests away from home, especially on quicker surfaces )

[express bowling]

30 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

My point was that Pakistan selection can justify the selection of a rookie - they have empty slots for pace bowlers to fill.  India by contrast has a queue on the bench.    

 

Not in LOIs, with Bumrah and Bhuvi injured. 

 

30 minutes ago, sandeep said:

"fan psyche" cannot and should not enter into the equation for team selection - sorry, but this is black and white, open and shut.

 

The real world does not work that way.

 

Popular sports are popular because the masterminds running the game are experts in analysing and catering to the demands arising from  fan psyche.

 

As I said, I am not suggesting the dropping of a deserving player  ... but there are many TTFs and mediocre players getting selected in India even.

[sandeep]

14 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Ishant has not done well in India.  Even Ishant 2.0 of the last 3 years has not done well in India because he lacks the skid off the surface or consistent pace in the air needed on slower surfaces. And neither is he a master of reverse swing bowling or stump directed bowling 

 

So he does not deserve better while playing in India.

 

(  Ishant 2.0 deserves a lot in tests away from home, especially on quicker surfaces )

You cannot take such a 'use and throw' attitude to your senior pros.  Ishant has bowled some critical spells in India - for example in the last Aus tour at Bangalore.  On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate Ishant's bowling yesterday?  Now as a fan, would it have been far more interesting to watch Siraj bowl as opposed to Ishant? Hell yeah, but you can't sacrifice team interests for the sake of fan entertainment.   Mind you, I wouldn't be saying the same thing for say, a Bhuvi, ahead of Siraj.  Say, if Ishant needed to be rested, then I would back Siraj's inclusion 110%.   And you would be aware, I'm one of the most biased Bhuvi fans around.  But you cannot just chuck Ishant out like that, for catering to "fan psyche".  

 

Maybe if we had an important away tour coming up where we wanted Siraj to be blooded and ready, it could be a slightly stronger case.  But the reality is that there are 5 pace bowling options for the Indian test team - Bumrah, Shami, Bhuvi, Ishant, Yadav.   There is no urgent pressing need to blood Siraj.  Hopefully his time comes and comes soon, but you can't justify forcing it, especially at the expense of displacing fit and available loyal first choice picks like Ishant.  

 

Honestly expected better from the pace bowling eminence grise of ICF.  

 

 

[sandeep]

16 minutes ago, express bowling said:

I am not suggesting the dropping of a deserving player  ... but there are many TTFs and mediocre players getting selected in India

Are you claiming Ishant is "not deserving" of selection?  Please check his test record over the last 2 years before making such claims.

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

You cannot take such a 'use and throw' attitude to your senior pros.  Ishant has bowled some critical spells in India - for example in the last Aus tour at Bangalore.  On a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate Ishant's bowling yesterday?  Now as a fan, would it have been far more interesting to watch Siraj bowl as opposed to Ishant? Hell yeah, but you can't sacrifice team interests for the sake of fan entertainment.   Mind you, I wouldn't be saying the same thing for say, a Bhuvi, ahead of Siraj.  Say, if Ishant needed to be rested, then I would back Siraj's inclusion 110%.   And you would be aware, I'm one of the most biased Bhuvi fans around.  But you cannot just chuck Ishant out like that, for catering to "fan psyche".  

 

There is no fan psyche issue involved here as Siraj is not a darling of the fans ... and his inclusion won't bring that many extra people to watch the game.  

 

Ishant has not been good on slow surfaces and I never want him to play in India if there are other people available. This is because his bowling style is not suited for slow surfaces.

 

Siraj on the other hand, is a stump directing skiddy bowler with better chance to do well in India.

 

Can Ishant do well in an odd test here or a green top here ?  Surely he can. But a Saini or a Siraj have better chances of being good long term options as pacers operating in India ... and we need to develop them.

 

 

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

 

Maybe if we had an important away tour coming up where we wanted Siraj to be blooded and ready, it could be a slightly stronger case.  But the reality is that there are 5 pace bowling options for the Indian test team - Bumrah, Shami, Bhuvi, Ishant, Yadav.   There is no urgent pressing need to blood Siraj.  Hopefully his time comes and comes soon, but you can't justify forcing it, especially at the expense of displacing fit and available loyal first choice picks like Ishant.  

 

Bhuvi is hardly picked in tests unless the ball is expected to move a lot. (  whether rightly or wrongly is another issue  )  And Umesh loses motivation every time he is playing a test outside Asia.

 

We have only 3 viable options in most cases in  tests outside Asia.  Bumrah, Shami and Ishant.  And we need to develop atleast 2 backups if one or more of them are injured.

 

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

Honestly expected better from the pace bowling eminence grise of ICF.  

 

 

You are an " old fart " like I am.  I expected you to consider the practical things in life a bit more. 

 

Much of what I wrote is about what is likely to happen rather than what should happen ideally.

[express bowling]

24 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Are you claiming Ishant is "not deserving" of selection?  Please check his test record over the last 2 years before making such claims.

 

Please check Ishant's test record in India in the last 3 years.

 

SR of 65 and average of 31.

 

Bowling on slower surfaces is very different from bowling on faster surfaces.  

 

Different style pacers are needed.