What is the solution to the Hindu-Muslim communal mess that our country finds itself in atm?

[Stradlater]

The reason why most piss poor Muslim households tend to breed like rabbits is because the lesser emphasis on female education. You educate the females and the results would be for everyone to see. 

[coffee_rules]

10 hours ago, Mariyam said:

I suggest you take a look at the poems that Urdu Class X books have. Only one is by Faiz. Mainly the focus in on the works of Indian authors. Ismat Chugtai, Kaifi Azmi, Firaq Gorakhpuri (he was a Hindu) and the like.

 

As it is, Urdu newspaper readership is dwindling in most of the areas. Written Urdu is dying a very slow natural death. I always believe that languages should naturally evolve and/or get extinct. The moment you bring in legislation on languages, you create a feeling of ill will and resistance to the change.

Avoid Faiz. Unless you want to turn into a inquilabi azaadi maangne wale left champu. It is a beautiful language if you don’t see the person frothing in hatred.

 

i want to learn Urdu script just to understand what they are talking about. BTW, my grandfather was a Urdu teacher in a government school. They used to encourage Hindus to learn Urdu so we get jobs in the government. Some way to get out of poverty. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by coffee_rules

[Vilander]

7 hours ago, Stradlater said:

The reason why most piss poor Muslim households tend to breed like rabbits is because the lesser emphasis on female education. You educate the females and the results would be for everyone to see. 

i dont take this argument.

 

Muslims religiously feel children are gift of god and procreation is a duty towards their one true God. 

 

I got this from islamqa.info site.

 

"This hadeeth indicates that it is encouraged to marry women who are fertile, so that the numbers of the ummah will increase, and so the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) will feel proud of his ummah before all other nations. This shows that it is encouraged to have a lot of children. "

"Al-Ghazaali said that when a man gets married, intending thereby to have children, that this is an act of worship for which he will be rewarded because of his good intention. He explained that in several ways: 

1 – This is in accordance with what Allaah wants, which is to perpetuate the human race. 

2 – Seeking the love of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in having many children, so that he will feel proud of them before the other Prophets and nations on the Day of Resurrection. 

3 – Seeking barakah (blessing) and a great deal of reward, and forgiveness of sins through the du’aa’ of a righteous child after one dies. 

It is well known that since ancient times children have been the hope of the Prophets and Messengers and all of the righteous slaves of Allaah, and that will continue to be the case so long as man’s innate nature (fitrah) remains sound."

 

"Undoubtedly the benefits of increasing the nation’s offspring are obvious to everyone who thinks about the matter. Hence nations who understand this matter have been keen to encourage their people to increase their numbers and also to make their enemies reduce their numbers by means of specious arguments and sometimes by using means that lead to infertility and having few children, by means of drugs, contaminated food stuffs that reduce fertility and so on. "

Edited March 5, 2020 by Vilander

[Vilander]

7 hours ago, Stradlater said:

Lol no. That would have drastic consequences for the future. Anyway as the recent data suggest, our fertility rate has come down significantly and would probably touch the WHO recommended 2.1 in about a decade or so. 

In urban regions it's already 1.8 or something if my memory serves me correctly. 

We need to focus more and more upon female education. That's the only thing that can save this country from the doom. 

As per the ministry of women and child and development data, those women who have at least senior secondary level school education tend to have less kids who are comparatively healthy as well. 

Hindus are beow replacement rate in many states, Muslims are always above replacement rate so yeah more muslims and lesser hindus in future. 

[raki05]

On 2/28/2020 at 6:37 PM, First class said:

Most importantly, its something to talk about and discuss this very very important  matter  . Stable , peaceful and prosperous India is good not just for India but also for the world in general. 

But is that good for pakistan and pakiistani?

[LordPrabhzy]

11 hours ago, Stradlater said:

The reason why most piss poor Muslim households tend to breed like rabbits is because the lesser emphasis on female education. You educate the females and the results would be for everyone to see. 

Or the males only think about sex all the time.. I mean the kids are a Unwanted side product of their hornyness.

[Mariyam]

@coffee_rules To be a lampat (had to look that up), a champu or a parsai ka abshar (from a Faiz poem, go figure) is my look out.

 

Thank you for your concern.

[Vilander]

15 hours ago, Vilander said:

i dont take this argument.

 

Muslims religiously feel children are gift of god and procreation is a duty towards their one true God. 

 

I got this from islamqa.info site.

 

"This hadeeth indicates that it is encouraged to marry women who are fertile, so that the numbers of the ummah will increase, and so the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) will feel proud of his ummah before all other nations. This shows that it is encouraged to have a lot of children. "

"Al-Ghazaali said that when a man gets married, intending thereby to have children, that this is an act of worship for which he will be rewarded because of his good intention. He explained that in several ways: 

1 – This is in accordance with what Allaah wants, which is to perpetuate the human race. 

2 – Seeking the love of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in having many children, so that he will feel proud of them before the other Prophets and nations on the Day of Resurrection. 

3 – Seeking barakah (blessing) and a great deal of reward, and forgiveness of sins through the du’aa’ of a righteous child after one dies. 

It is well known that since ancient times children have been the hope of the Prophets and Messengers and all of the righteous slaves of Allaah, and that will continue to be the case so long as man’s innate nature (fitrah) remains sound."

 

"Undoubtedly the benefits of increasing the nation’s offspring are obvious to everyone who thinks about the matter. Hence nations who understand this matter have been keen to encourage their people to increase their numbers and also to make their enemies reduce their numbers by means of specious arguments and sometimes by using means that lead to infertility and having few children, by means of drugs, contaminated food stuffs that reduce fertility and so on. "

@Mariyam is the above established truth ? genuine question.

[Mariyam]

2 minutes ago, Vilander said:

@Mariyam is the above established truth ? genuine question.

Yes, it is.

[coffee_rules]

7 hours ago, Mariyam said:

@coffee_rules To be a lampat (had to look that up), a champu or a parsai ka abshar (from a Faiz poem, go figure) is my look out.

 

Thank you for your concern.

@Mariyam Mohatarma, yeh to gappi nikla. khuda ke vaaste, aap kya farma rahi hain? There is no word called parsai in Urdu as per the dictionary. It could be Arabic. I editted out lampat after looking up it's meaning.

[speedheat]

Looks like there are no solutions for this mess... We are doomed.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

On 3/2/2020 at 1:46 PM, Vilander said:

May be a two nation federated union can be attempted. Meaning Muslims vote Muslim representatives and they are practically a separate autonomous country ( except foreign policy or security of course) with free movement of goods, people and services across the two nations. This sounds more problematic that current situation but might bring down violence. 

 

No thanks.

India is a unified subcontinent. No more partitions, no more segregation. Your scenario perfectly describes Jammu and Kashmir before the revocation of article 370. You are assuming that muslims and hindus can't live together, which is untrue. The Ram Mandir trust in Ayodhya allowed the construction of a mosque. Mecca would never allow the construction of a hindu temple.

 

Moreover, the scenario you describe is impossible for one reason, and one reason only - secularists will NEVER allow a muslim leader to represent muslim interests. For them, this equates to acceptance of defeat.

 

I would be perfectly happy with someone such as Asaduddin Owaisi leading the Congress Party. If the Congress wants to become the Muslim League - which it currently appears to be - they might as well put a muslim at the front. But this will never happen, because they themselves don't want it to happen.

 

On 3/2/2020 at 12:58 PM, sandeep said:

There are always challenges.  Doesn't mean solutions shouldn't be attempted.  

 

That's what govt policies are for - to incentivize certain behaviors, and vice versa.  

The only solution is to disincentivize the adoption of muslim identity. Whether it be through tangible inducements - cash payments, property, educational schemes - or through law enforcement - such as clear actions regulating islamic practices and rituals. There also needs to be a more covert, citizen-led effort to lower the social status of a muslim. The 'victimhood' of muslims should be questioned, under all circumstances.

 

I would even re-write the quran and other islamic texts according to a more 'dharmic', government-monitored directive. But India isn't authoritarian enough to attempt this.

 

We're seeing some action in Uttar Pradesh, under the Yogi adityanath government. Institutions have to be re-aligned so that society incentivizes adoption of hindu identity over muslim identity, specifically in states with a large muslim population. Ghar wapasi should take utmost priority in Indian domestic politics.

 

We also have to tell the truth about the Mughal era. History books have to be re-written. So far, there has been zero progress on this front.

 

It's not impossible. Most muslims are dirt poor, low caste converts. If they converted once,  then they can be re-converted. I'm sure their 'muslim identity' isn't as important to them as the elites would have you believe during every election cycle.

 

On 3/2/2020 at 1:32 PM, Audiophile said:

There are solutions, but nothing will be implemented. This will go on for ever and ever. Hate for each other has consumed any rationale thinking, so I do not expect any rational solution. There are people who will bitch and moan about how bad Muslims are, and India has been ruled by them yada yada yada. 

 

Well India has 15% Muslim population of whom a majority are Indian citizens. You cannot assume they are going anywhere. So deal with it and implements solutions so that communities can co-exist without rioting. They do not have to love each other, but definitely can co-exist without violence. 

They won't be implemented for one reason and one reason only:

Muslims form a reliable vote bloc for the opposition parties. The opposition parties want to further reinforce the muslim identity, encourage divisions and create social unrest because it benefits them politically. How can you expect co-existence when political parties encourage religious extremism, particular within abrahamic religions that draw a clear distinction between believers and non-believers?

 

I DO NOT like the overtly religious nature of the BJP, but if muslims remain a backward, poverty-stricken and largely un-educated community that serves no purpose other than to feed votes to 'secularist' parties, then polarising hindus is the only solution. And all this started long before the days of BJP, it dates back to the Shah Bano case and the preferential treatment given to muslims for decades. Mind you, this preferential treatment didn't even benefit muslim citizens- it only benefited the mullahs and political leaders.

 

As long as India remains a democracy, this is the situation Indians will have to live with. Whether we like to admit it or not, India is too backward to be a democracy. An authoritarian government would be able to implement a long-term vision to bring everyone in line.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Manny_Pacquiao

[Vilander]

8 minutes ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

No thanks.

India is a unified subcontinent.

its not what we want and what we wish for. Its what would stop the 'unified subcontinent' from killing each-other more unfortunately. Hope its a law and order problem if its a real civil unrest all of India is f'd.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

4 minutes ago, Vilander said:

its not what we want and what we wish for.

Who is we? Speak for yourself.

 

Pakistan and Bangladesh should not exist.

[Vilander]

7 minutes ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

Who is we? Speak for yourself.

 

Pakistan and Bangladesh should not exist.

learn to understand English first. When i say its not about what we wish for but what is pragmatic i mean every Indian wants India to not be subdivided but it that realistically possible if we also want people to live safely without being subject to severe disruption to civil life with riots and general lawlessness ?

 

 

[Vilander]

so basically.

 

1, Control content in education ( madrassas)

 

2, Control population explosion ( mandate family planning coersively if necessary)

 

3, Attempt all possible political solutions not amounting to cession of nations territory. 

 

 

[Deleted_User_1]

I

33 minutes ago, Manny_Pacquiao said:

 

No thanks.

India is a unified subcontinent. No more partitions, no more segregation. Your scenario perfectly describes Jammu and Kashmir before the revocation of article 370. You are assuming that muslims and hindus can't live together, which is untrue. The Ram Mandir trust in Ayodhya allowed the construction of a mosque. Mecca would never allow the construction of a hindu temple.

 

Moreover, the scenario you describe is impossible for one reason, and one reason only - secularists will NEVER allow a muslim leader to represent muslim interests. For them, this equates to acceptance of defeat.

 

I would be perfectly happy with someone such as Asaduddin Owaisi leading the Congress Party. If the Congress wants to become the Muslim League - which it currently appears to be - they might as well put a muslim at the front. But this will never happen, because they themselves don't want it to happen.

 

The only solution is to disincentivize the adoption of muslim identity. Whether it be through tangible inducements - cash payments, property, educational schemes - or through law enforcement - such as clear actions regulating islamic practices and rituals. There also needs to be a more covert, citizen-led effort to lower the social status of a muslim. The 'victimhood' of muslims should be questioned, under all circumstances.

 

I would even re-write the quran and other islamic texts according to a more 'dharmic', government-monitored directive. But India isn't authoritarian enough to attempt this.

 

We're seeing some action in Uttar Pradesh, under the Yogi adityanath government. Institutions have to be re-aligned so that society incentivizes adoption of hindu identity over muslim identity, specifically in states with a large muslim population. Ghar wapasi should take utmost priority in Indian domestic politics.

 

We also have to tell the truth about the Mughal era. History books have to be re-written. So far, there has been zero progress on this front.

 

It's not impossible. Most muslims are dirt poor, low caste converts. If they converted once,  then they can be re-converted. I'm sure their 'muslim identity' isn't as important to them as the elites would have you believe during every election cycle.

 

They won't be implemented for one reason and one reason only:

Muslims form a reliable vote bloc for the opposition parties. The opposition parties want to further reinforce the muslim identity, encourage divisions and create social unrest because it benefits them politically. How can you expect co-existence when political parties encourage religious extremism, particular within abrahamic religions that draw a clear distinction between believers and non-believers?

 

I DO NOT like the overtly religious nature of the BJP, but if muslims remain a backward, poverty-stricken and largely un-educated community that serves no purpose other than to feed votes to 'secularist' parties, then polarising hindus is the only solution. And all this started long before the days of BJP, it dates back to the Shah Bano case and the preferential treatment given to muslims for decades. Mind you, this preferential treatment didn't even benefit muslim citizens- it only benefited the mullahs and political leaders.

 

As long as India remains a democracy, this is the situation Indians will have to live with. Whether we like to admit it or not, India is too backward to be a democracy. An authoritarian government would be able to implement a long-term vision to bring everyone in line.

I am afraid some of what you say is right. Just like the Israel-Palestine conflict, the Hindu-Muslim tensions will never end.

[rollingstoned]

There are only 3 solutions and none of them involve ganga jamuna tehzeeb and 'sabka saath,sabka vishwas' inspired approach which is not grounded in any practicality. None of them are anywhere close to politically correct though for what is pretty much a *ed up situation coz the seeds of what were sown in 47 Werent implemented properly. 

1 ) do what china does in Xinjiang and reverse brainwash jehadis. 

2) do ghar waapsi en masse. Start of this is freeing temples from govt control which I have reasons to believe is something bjp itself may not want that keenly. 

3) actualy take out pogroms because provocations like shaheen bagh and delhi will.keep.happening and the Rubicon i

Will be crossed for hindus like in 2002. Make the population exchange a reality now and/or follow step 2. 

[Vilander]

2 hours ago, rollingstoned said:

actualy take out pogroms because provocations like shaheen bagh and delhi will.keep.happening

what are you saying ???

[rkt.india]

Nothing can be done until they stop leaving their work for namaz. Bigotry starts from there.