The series that exposed Kambli's weakness against short balls.

[maniac]

3 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Forget discrimination.

 

If possible don't bring discrimination in discussion. There is no discrimination.

 

Question is very simple and nothing to do with discrimination - How Brahmins are so good cricketers that despite being 4% of population they formed over 50% of Indian test cricketers most of the time? (It's already given that they are better cricketer, hence higher numbers).

Kambli got a lot of opportunities till early 2000s. In fact his last match was that infamous 54 allout game vs Srilanka at Sharjah.

 

He debuted before the 92 WC, so he was in the scheme of things for 10 years.

 

Also Kambli’s problem with performance was a relatively smaller issue than his drunken behavior. 
 

I would argue that Kambli got a more  opportunities despite his behavior because he was from Mumbai a strong influencer in Indian cricket and also his friendship with Sachin.

 

Do you think say someone like Dhoni from Ranchi would have been given the same feee ride early on if he behaved like Kambli ?

 

On the other hand Ganguly came from a rich family, I am assuming he is Brahmin or some high caste Bengali. There was a lot of criticism on his selection. Grabbed his opportunity, became One of  India’s greatest captain and played a role in changing Indian cricket.

 

Do you think Kumble or Dravid were never dropped because they were Brahmins or because they never put a foot down since debut?

 

Laxman was dropped multiple times. In fact he was sidelined for Dinesh Mongia of all people. He had to play the greatest knock of all time to become a regular and even then people tried to replace him with Yuvraj. Despite that he is one of India’s greatest match winners in tests and Yuvi was in LOIs.

 

Not sure how casteism played a role here.

 

Indian cricket has issues with regionalism, not as much as they used to be pre-80s but there isn’t casteism. 
 

Show me one guy in the team who is there because of his high class and is picked over more deserving lower caste players?

 

 

[Trichromatic]

4 hours ago, jalebi_bhai said:

I think jimmy cliff makes a valid argument. Post liberalization, cricket decentralised to more remote parts of the country. Prior to that, accessibility to cricket infra was probably easier for people in urban and sub-urban parts. Don't think there is genetics angle. 

 

So most likely reason is probably earlier access to better infrastructure for urban/sub-urban class, which is mostly upper caste.

 

Not sure if institutional discrimination is too rampant anymore because end of the day professional sport is about winning. It could have been an issue early on, but now I think it's mostly just sifarshi/nepotism at worst.

That explains why cricket was limited to urban centers, but doesn't answer my question.

[Trichromatic]

3 hours ago, maniac said:

Not sure how casteism played a role here.

 

Indian cricket has issues with regionalism, not as much as they used to be pre-80s but there isn’t casteism. 
 

Show me one guy in the team who is there because of his high class and is picked over more deserving lower caste players?

 

 

Question isn't about any problem. Assume there is no problem. Question is about why and how one caste dominates cricket this much. How do they become so much better cricketer?

 

It's one thing to question whether Murali was great bowler or not, and another thing to analyse how he could spin ball this much.

 

It's one thing to debate how good Kohli in in swinging conditions, another thing to analyse factors/changes which allowed him to be successful as batsman in 2nd England tour.

 

Which factors allows one caste to dominate cricket this much that despite being 4% they constituted 60% of test team most of the time?

[Trichromatic]

11 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Looks like after polluting movies, Varun Gobar/Nirodh Kashyap gang have now set their eyes on kirkut. 

 

Vinod Kambli was reduced to his assumed (‘lowest’) caste identity

Also are you claiming that what he mentions here is false and didn't happen?

 

Quote

Vinod Kambli took a rising ball on his right arm and had to be retired hurt because of a suspected fracture. As he walked back to the pavilion, in pain and frustration after scoring a fluent 61, a section of the crowd erupted in a volley of abuses directed at him. They called him lazy and useless followed by caste-names (chamber) used as slurs. The most-promising player of the most-elite club of our own country was reduced to his assumed (‘lowest’) caste identity by a crowd of ordinary men who derived this power from the accident of their birth.

 

[Jimmy Cliff]

29 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Also are you claiming that what he mentions here is false and didn't happen?

 

 

No. But I wouldn't put it past Gobar to cook up false anecdotes. What I will say with certainty is that the idea that Kambli's own countrymen rooted for his failure is retarded. And that the fact he couldn't make it big had anything to do with an inherent caste bias in Indian cricket.

 

Kambli and Manjrekar both had great starts to their careers and were in the mix in both formats till the mid-90s. What hurt them (and the likes of Sidhu and Amre for that matter) is the emergence of Ganguly and Dravid on the England tour of 1996. These two settled in very quickly and were first choice almost immediately with Azhar and Sachin being the other certainties in the middle order. Manjrekar saw the writing on the wall and retired in 97-98, Sidhu retired a year later whereas Kambli was still around in ODIs until 2000 when a combination of injuries and Yuvraj making it to the senior side got him dropped for good.

 

The likes of Gobar (and that Yesplease guy quoted by @coffee_rules) ignore all the cricketing context and instead try to construct an "atrocity literature" kinda narrative around Kambli while painting Indian cricket (along with Indian society) as a casteist hell-hole. 

[Gollum]

Why don't we see Brahmins in hockey team or track events? Why do Yadavs dominate wrestling? Why are there more Muslims (disproportionate) among fast bowling ranks? People can always counterquestion. Maybe Brahmins take more liking to certain sports, while others are less ambitious. Times are changing, first cricket broke the metro vs rural/small town barrier and now spreading to a larger pie of the population. 

[Jimmy Cliff]

Just now, Gollum said:

Why don't we see Brahmins in hockey team or track events? Why do Yadavs dominate wrestling? Why are there more Muslims (disproportionate) among fast bowling ranks? People can always counterquestion. Maybe Brahmins take more liking to certain sports, while others are less ambitious. Times are changing, first cricket broke the metro vs rural/small town barrier and now spreading to a larger pie of the population. 

Cunning Brahmins only play the sport that brings in the moolah .

[Gollum]

Nearly all our chess GMs are Brahmins, majority being TamBrahms. Chess rating is very fair, no selection dhandha, you play, you earn rating points, you move up the ladder and get invitations to strong tournaments. Resources are same, books/engines/database, online learning material, and almost all our players are from middle class. I have seen sarcastic remarks from some fellow Indians about the caste of our top chess stars, hinting at discrimination and all that usual nonsense. Some slurs as well directed towards far greater men than them, men who have actually taken the initiative to spread their knowledge for free in slums and remote villages instead of whining and vomiting BS in some rag. Where do I even begin? There is a certain group in the country which wants to play caste-caste every time, divide the dharmic society (they never talk about caste in Islam/Christianity), spread fake narratives imported from West, they don't wanna solve problems but break the unity of Indians. Sorry for the digression, just wanted to say that Varun Grover is one such nuisance figure, I am all for having honest conversation about this but I have reservation about intention/neeyat of the writer of that article.

[Gollum]

Why do Christians dominate Indian tennis? Amritraj family, Paes, Bhupathi all from a 2% community, how? Does it matter, really? Did anyone here know that Vijay Amritraj and Bhupathi are Christians? They represented India, gave their heart and soul in Davis Cup matches, wore Indian flag with pride, and that is the bottomline. 'Breaking India' forces can try their luck elsewhere. I would like to believe that sports unites Indians, not to the extent of IA but close. 

[Gollum]

Then again the cabal did caste analysis of our fallen braves in Pulwama. What can we expect from such creatures? They can stoop to any low. 

[vvvslaxman]

are you sure ;)

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

This started even before :) Just he was able to mask against weaker oppositions on home grounds. He would always jump instead of weaving or ducking. Basically he would put himself in a more awkward position than the original stance position.

[Clarke]

Classic conspiracy theorist behavior on display here