Real Casteism in India - Possible Solutions

[Mariyam]

14 hours ago, someone said:

One solution is to remove the narrative on hierarchy by birth. That's a big difference between caste and jati. We had the latter as categories for people, it was not a fixed hierarchy system set by birth.

 

And it's not a Hindu problem, Muslims also have it. But they ultimately rally around the Ummah. Thus, We as a nation needs to find our rallying point...

Why would you say that?

The genesis of the caste system is in the "Hindu" scriptures. 

Also the caste system is just not as rigid with the Muslims as it is with Hindus. You won't find a caste of Muslims stopping another caste from praying in their mosques etc. There *is* discrimination on the kind of Muslim/ kind of Islamic jurisprudence that one believes in, but that cuts across caste categories.

Many Muslims have adopted the caste system. That is true. But a lot of that is essentially entire communities converting to Islam, mainly for economic benefits, from certain classes and they retain their relative social standing vis a vis the others, in spite of their new found economic freedom/success. 

[Mariyam]

14 hours ago, MechEng said:

Social mobility through fake lower caste certificates.

 

India doesn't have a caste issue but an integrity one.

You maybe on to something.

 

For the first time in independent India, there are reservations based on Economic Conditions. There is this quota called as the EWS: Economically Weaker Section. Only those who belong to the general category and have below a certain household income and no/bare minimum level of land holdings/property are eligible.

And before you know it, there is a crazy rush to mask/ falsify income levels. Also, our entire tax regime, historically speaking, works by the " lenient in assessment, stringent in collection" motto. Makes getting fake income certificates just as easy as getting fake caste certificates. 

[FischerTal]

Still surprised how Modi and Shah rose to their positions despite neither belonging to dominant castes in Gujarat.

 

modi is OBC but his ghanchi community is not politically powerfully

 

shah is Jain baniya who are financially well off but still they are a pretty small minority. 

[Gollum]

2 minutes ago, FischerTal said:

shah is Jain baniya who are financially well off but still they are a pretty small minority. 

Really, he claims he is Hindu Vaishnav. 

[FischerTal]

15 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Really, he claims he is Hindu Vaishnav. 

Afaik hes jain but maybe I’m wrong

[someone]

1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

Why would you say that?

The genesis of the caste system is in the "Hindu" scriptures. 

Also the caste system is just not as rigid with the Muslims as it is with Hindus. You won't find a caste of Muslims stopping another caste from praying in their mosques etc. There *is* discrimination on the kind of Muslim/ kind of Islamic jurisprudence that one believes in, but that cuts across caste categories.

Many Muslims have adopted the caste system. That is true. But a lot of that is essentially entire communities converting to Islam, mainly for economic benefits, from certain classes and they retain their relative social standing vis a vis the others, in spite of their new found economic freedom/success. 

There is Ashraf, Ajlaf, Arzal. Its one underlying reason for the converted Indian origin people’s dislike for India and native religions. The converted want to be seen as purest and thus, can resort to kattarpandhi. 
 

And caste is a English term given by English. Its not a Hindu term so thats not apt meaning.

[G_B_]

1 hour ago, FischerTal said:

Afaik hes jain but maybe I’m wrong

He is jain. As is current cm of guj rupani

[someone]

4 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

He is jain. As is current cm of guj rupani

“Have been Hindu for 7 generations: Amit Shah's riposte after Siddaramaiah says he isn't one”

[G_B_]

3 minutes ago, someone said:

“Have been Hindu for 7 generations: Amit Shah's riposte after Siddaramaiah says he isn't one”

Well his mother is hindu father is jain.

 

As you maybe aware inter marraiges between jains and hindus are common.

 

Somebody like uddhav thakarey despite being hindu follows a jain guru.

 

So its quite interchangeable.

 

[coffee_rules]

9 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

How much culture, festival, language varies from one caste to other? 
 

A lot ranging from lifestyle choices, food, gods we pray and even language. In Kannada, the daily usage words  differs from one household to another. 

9 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

You don't need to justify it just to prove that you're not liberal.

I am not justifying it, I don’t consider it to be such a major social ill as it is not hurting somebody’s basic human rights. Like living or worshipping or freedom of choosing a job for your children. The problems you point out are a repercussion of endogamy, but there are ways to solve it. There are a lot of casteless matrimonial sites etc, or choose a life partner by dating. 

 

I agree that banishing caste system starts with mixing and inter caste marriages, but one cannot force it as well. We can have intellectuals comment on it and change minds, but can’t shame one to accept it. It depends on one’s comfort level and open mindedness. Marriage in India is still a social acceptable event and not so much like west or a Bollywood story. People still worry about baradari and what not. I don’t want to argue much on in caste marriages as other issues are much more important . This is not a major issue with upper castes but also OBCs and Dalits as well. They even go to killing their own daughters in those communities. I am not condoning such crimes, but looking for a partner in your own caste is harmless compared to other evils.
 

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by coffee_rules

[coffee_rules]

8 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Why would you say that?

The genesis of the caste system is in the "Hindu" scriptures. 

Also the caste system is just not as rigid with the Muslims as it is with Hindus. You won't find a caste of Muslims stopping another caste from praying in their mosques etc. There *is* discrimination on the kind of Muslim/ kind of Islamic jurisprudence that one believes in, but that cuts across caste categories.

Many Muslims have adopted the caste system. That is true. But a lot of that is essentially entire communities converting to Islam, mainly for economic benefits, from certain classes and they retain their relative social standing vis a vis the others, in spite of their new found economic freedom/success. 

Not caste, but a hierarchical class system exists. South Asian Muslims who believe they are direct descendants of Arabs, Persians and Turks are Ashrafs. Converts in South Asia from Hindu baniyas or OBCs are Ajlafs, and Muslims who are converted from Dalits or so-called “untouchables” are called Arzals. Ajlafs and Arzals are together known as Pasminda Musalmaan (degraded). Socially, they maintain this order, don’t intermingle and they are not upgraded are stuck to it by birth. In Pakistan. Arzals are  derogatively called Mussali or Mausalee. They live in ghettos, allowed to only do sanitation work and are considered lesser Muslims than majority. 
 

How practical are these ? Is there any truth to it?

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by coffee_rules

[MechEng]

7 hours ago, Mariyam said:

You maybe on to something.

 

For the first time in independent India, there are reservations based on Economic Conditions. There is this quota called as the EWS: Economically Weaker Section. Only those who belong to the general category and have below a certain household income and no/bare minimum level of land holdings/property are eligible.

And before you know it, there is a crazy rush to mask/ falsify income levels. Also, our entire tax regime, historically speaking, works by the " lenient in assessment, stringent in collection" motto. Makes getting fake income certificates just as easy as getting fake caste certificates. 

We are smart folks. We know how to game a system. Failure of demonetization is a good example.

[Mariyam]

On 7/17/2020 at 8:06 PM, coffee_rules said:

Not caste, but a hierarchical class system exists. South Asian Muslims who believe they are direct descendants of Arabs, Persians and Turks are Ashrafs. Converts in South Asia from Hindu baniyas or OBCs are Ajlafs, and Muslims who are converted from Dalits or so-called “untouchables” are called Arzals. Ajlafs and Arzals are together known as Pasminda Musalmaan (degraded). Socially, they maintain this order, don’t intermingle and they are not upgraded are stuck to it by birth. In Pakistan. Arzals are  derogatively called Mussali or Mausalee. They live in ghettos, allowed to only do sanitation work and are considered lesser Muslims than majority. 
 

How practical are these ? Is there any truth to it?

 

The word is *Pasmanda*

It doesn't mean degraded. It means backward/ slow in the context of learning.

 

Not denying the existence of class (or caste) in Muslims in India. Identity of Muslims wrt castes is difficult to ascertain because many have opted to drop out their original occupation based surnames be them Hindu or Muslims. Many don't use surnames at all. And in the absence of surnames anyone can claim anything. 

Hence these identities are generally fluid.

 

There is discrimination among/by Muslims in India. Against those who aren't Muslims. Also against those who are Muslims of a different denomination.

But I have *never* heard of discrimination when a certain caste (or class if you will) of Muslims are debarred from entering a mosque because of the advent of their supposed 'low birth'. Or denied entry in a communal kitchen etc.In general kind of discriminatory practices that the Harijans/ Dalits have been subjected to for ages. In fact the practice birth based segregation is considered abhorrent in the Holy Quran and has no canonical sanction. Quite the opposite, it can lead to punitive measures.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Mariyam

[someone]

3 hours ago, Mariyam said:

The word is *Pasmanda*

It doesn't mean degraded. It means backward/ slow in the context of learning.

 

Not denying the existence of class (or caste) in Muslims in India. Identity of Muslims wrt castes is difficult to ascertain because many have opted to drop out their original occupation based surnames be them Hindu or Muslims. Many don't use surnames at all. And in the absence of surnames anyone can claim anything. 

Hence these identities are generally fluid.

 

There is discrimination among/by Muslims in India. Against those who aren't Muslims. Also against those who are Muslims of a different denomination.

But I have *never* heard of discrimination when a certain caste (or class if you will) of Muslims are debarred from entering a mosque because of the advent of their supposed 'low birth'. Or denied entry in a communal kitchen etc.In general kind of discriminatory practices that the Harijans/ Dalits have been subjected to for ages. In fact the practice birth based segregation is considered abhorrent in the Holy Quran and has no canonical sanction. Quite the opposite, it can lead to punitive measures.

Dalits will disagree with you. They face discrimination and stigma even after conversion.

 

And they also use caste to have a global and extreme implication. Calling other Muslims as kafirs by birth,  and using all kinds of violence, exploitation against them...

[coffee_rules]

On 7/21/2020 at 1:36 AM, Mariyam said:

The word is *Pasmanda*

It doesn't mean degraded. It means backward/ slow in the context of learning.

 

Not denying the existence of class (or caste) in Muslims in India. Identity of Muslims wrt castes is difficult to ascertain because many have opted to drop out their original occupation based surnames be them Hindu or Muslims. Many don't use surnames at all. And in the absence of surnames anyone can claim anything. 

Hence these identities are generally fluid.

 

There is discrimination among/by Muslims in India. Against those who aren't Muslims. Also against those who are Muslims of a different denomination.

But I have *never* heard of discrimination when a certain caste (or class if you will) of Muslims are debarred from entering a mosque because of the advent of their supposed 'low birth'. Or denied entry in a communal kitchen etc.In general kind of discriminatory practices that the Harijans/ Dalits have been subjected to for ages. In fact the practice birth based segregation is considered abhorrent in the Holy Quran and has no canonical sanction. Quite the opposite, it can lead to punitive measures.

Thanks for correcting. They might not be discriminating whom they consider Muslims, but certainly the Harijans are kept out of social lives. Do these classes intermingle socially and do they marry each other? I am told they marry only among their class, just like the endogamy in Hindu castes. I am not talking about cousin marriages here.

Edited July 22, 2020 by coffee_rules

[chewy]

Ambedkar had a simple and effective solution, but coward orthodoxy didn't want to loose their power and rejected his ideas. Including Gandhi.

 

Ideas of Ambedkar still has time.

 

Maybe declare all dharmics Brahmins.

 

It is nauseating how so many in India take pride being in a varna one above another, puke worthy.

 

As Ambedkar said, Hindus will never unite because there is no integration force to unite all varnas and sub-varnas during times of trouble, Unlike Muslims, Christians, Communists and patriotism etc

 

Abolish this whole nonsense of hereditary pujararis and pandits. 

 

 

[coffee_rules]

2 hours ago, chewy said:

 

Abolish this whole nonsense of hereditary pujararis and pandits. 

 

 

Yeah right! Gangs of pujaris and pandits are going around wielding guns and forcing the Dalits to follow the caste system. As said earlier, the severe problem is human rights violations caused by OBCs and other UCs (zamindars etc) to Dalits, but ha sabka shrey jaata hain in brahmanon ko!

[diga]

2 hours ago, chewy said:

Abolish this whole nonsense of hereditary pujararis and pandits. 

BTW Its the temple committee which appoints priests .. and  devotion & cleanliness is the paramount criterion for choosing one. 

  

In most Karnataka temples, I have not seen many sons following their fathers to become temple priest. Most have moved onto other professions or migrated to other temples.

[coffee_rules]

After, the Dravida thread deteriorated, moving the discussion here.

 

@sandeep It is not present in big cities. When I grew up in the 80s and 90s, caste was around. Especially in family talk and politics especially. It is there in politics even now, big time. But NOT in schools and colleges, I went to. So, we never learnt what the caste is of each other. It didn't matter even in professional life too. But in govt offices, banks, caste is big. Esp when certain communities get promotion over others and when they get jobs because of reservation. It has vanished in families now, in big cities as inter-caste/community marriages are on the rise. It is a good sign, to abrogate the whole caste system.  At a individual level, we should stop hating based on caste , that too in 2020. Not to say, it gets to that, when we discuss the politics of the region, about EVR or Lallu, who wore their caste/caste politics  on their sleeve.  I am glad that at a societal level, caste discussions are shunned and talked in hushed voices, I am not saying the problem is solved, it is far from being solved in India.

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

On 7/23/2020 at 7:25 AM, coffee_rules said:

Yeah right! Gangs of pujaris and pandits are going around wielding guns and forcing the Dalits to follow the caste system. As said earlier, the severe problem is human rights violations caused by OBCs and other UCs (zamindars etc) to Dalits, but ha sabka shrey jaata hain in brahmanon ko!

Every powerful community's $HIt stinks.  From royalty to priests to zamindars.  

 

End result is that the truly oppressed, the truly economically and socially disadvantaged classes, always have a steeper climb to make it out.