Given a chance, Umesh might surprise us.

[maniac]

8 minutes ago, sandeep said:

There's a reason for the "2nd innings Shami" meme.  Figure it out.

 

Yes Siraj has been better with red ball over white, and we haven't seen him at the highest level yet. But we do have reasonable insight into his mindset, his repertoire, and his ability to adapt under pressure.  Let's be honest - it hasn't been great.  

 

 

The conservative in me tends to agree with this, but I do like Siraj's potential.  And Umesh has let us down quite a few times in the past.  But he also has shown improvement.  Its a bit of a mess, and I'm hoping the 2nd warm-up game gives us an easier choice.

 

Regardless I hope whoever it is, does well.

Bumrah and Shami are expected to do the heavy lifting anyways.

 

As far as being expensive and wayward are concerned, Saini and Siraj in their short careers have shown that they are equally capable of that as well.

 

Running through line ups I don’t think I have ever seen Saini do that in any format even though I love watching him bowl with pace and aggression. 
 

On top of that if people are making a big deal about Kookaburra ball  and pink ball then how do they expect rookies to adapt to that anyways.

First test it’s a no brainer, sure if he or anyone else sucks then get your debutants.

 

What separates us from other cricketing nations is how valuable and tough it is to earn a cap. Let them earn their cap when they replace Umesh if he sucks and then grab their chance too. Before that Umesh all the way

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by maniac

[Suhaan]

21 minutes ago, sandeep said:

here's a reason for the "2nd innings Shami" meme.  Figure it out

That doesn't mean he has blown hot and cold,its his skill to run through sides in second innings not everyone comes with this skill

21 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Yes Siraj has been better with red ball over white, and we haven't seen him at the highest level yet. But we do have reasonable insight into his mindset, his repertoire, and his ability to adapt under pressure.  Let's be honest - it hasn't been great.  

Yes he has brainfade moments but is yet to be sseenin red ball cricket , completely unfair to judge him on white ball cricket performance

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Suhaan

[Vilander]

Umesh might surprise us for sure.. but not sure if in a good way.

[Suhaan]

11 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

One of the biggest reason we have done well overseas is our tight bowling, Umesh has an eco of 4.53 in Aus...totally unacceptable . Now even siraj can go for runs but not as badly most days as umesh , ill rather have a future player fail then a TTF 

 

Don't know sometimes stats are sole criteria but sometimes they are not?

Why do we fear to play newcomers when old ones are stinking already?

What has this brought Indian cricket to? Do we realise?

[Vickydev]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

Players can evolve and change with time.  You should evaluate them for what they offer today, not what happened x years ago.  

 

Given that we have Bumrah and Shami as our first 2 choices, it becomes an important criteria that the 3rd seamer does 2 things well - execute with discipline to not undo the good work and pressure of the other bowlers - still offer some wicket-taking potential.  Add to this we already have Shami who can be wayward and blow hot and cold often.  That increases the pressure on the 3rd seamer to be even more disciplined.

 

I have high hopes for young Siraj and would have liked nothing better than for him to stake a strong claim for selection.  However, its becoming increasingly clear that Siraj is not a naturally 'smart' bowler who is adept at tactics, nor experienced enough to pick up those smarts.  He's still very promising, but the fact remains that there may be a risk of him struggling to maintain control and discipline in a tough match situation.  His mental strength is a bit of a question mark.  With Umesh, we know that he has improved meaningfully from his spray-gun days, his 'floor' - i.e. the worst case scenario, may be a safer  bet than Siraj's worst case scenario.  

 

tbh, neither Umesh nor Siraj really made a runaway strong case for themselves.  Both bowled well, but not spectacularly so.  

Well said. The third seamer needs to be someone who can keep his end tight, building pressure for the other 2 to do their business. Chip in with maybe a wicket or two in the process. Dont see anybody among the selected bowlers who can do that. 

[Ankit_sharma03]

33 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Don't know sometimes stats are sole criteria but sometimes they are not?

 

Stats is what proves an observation and its very clear over so many yrs umesh is a diff bowler when he has SG in hand and diff when Kookabura or duke , stats just prove it

 

33 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Why do we fear to play newcomers when old ones are stinking already?

 

wahi conservative mindset - playing safe 

 

[cowboysfan]

he has lost a lot of pace too,he should not have been on this tour,he is not suited for flat tracks. 

[putrevus]

The problem with having 3rd pacer who leaks runs is the other two will be overworked.

Bhuvi has never been same test bowler after Dhoni overused him in 2014 England tour.

Bumrah is coming off injury and if he is ineffective or is overused then it will be disastrous.


Shami is more a second innings bowler, tough choices ahead for TM.


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[sandeep]

58 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

completely unfair to judge him on white ball cricket performance

 

Not really.  The reason Siraj struggles in whiteball cricket, is because he has trouble adjusting his attacking red-ball lengths to the different needs of white ball cricket.  If a bowler shows you that he is struggling with applying those type of adjustments, and that too, time and again, then you have to question whether he can make the length adjustments that a successful bowler with Indian Ranji experiences, needs to make, for the more bouncier Australian wickets.  Or the various fine-tuning tweaks required to try and shut down the scoring zones of certain batsmen who may be well set when he gets the ball in hand as the 3rd seamer.  These aren't "unfair" observations, they are what they are.  Reasonable projections and concerns based on what we have seen him do so far.

 

This is not to deny Siraj's potential and promise as a red ball bowler - I feel that he is an attacking bowler by instinct - a guy who targets the stumps and looks to take wickets.  And is plenty quick.  A bowler like that can be very useful if he is able to deploy and execute his skillset accurately and consistently.  

 

FWIW I hope he gets to play and does well.  We are all fans here, nothing more I'd like to see than a young Siraj putting up a nice debut, maybe a 5-fer.  But my perspective and opinion have reasonable logic to them - calling them "unfair" needs more evidence than what you have provided.

[sandeep]

28 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Stats is what proves an observation and its very clear over so many yrs umesh is a diff bowler when he has SG in hand and diff when Kookabura or duke , stats just prove it

 

 

wahi conservative mindset - playing safe 

 

Did either of you worthies bother watching Umesh and Siraj bowl against Aus A yesterday? 

[putrevus]

They cannot play all four fast bowlers as 150 /4 will be 170 all out.

Jadeja being hurt might force them to go with four fast bowlers.

Ashwin has been useless with bat.


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[Suhaan]

34 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Not really.  The reason Siraj struggles in whiteball cricket, is because he has trouble adjusting his attacking red-ball lengths to the different needs of white ball cricket.  If a bowler shows you that he is struggling with applying those type of adjustments, and that too, time and again, then you have to question whether he can make the length adjustments that a successful bowler with Indian Ranji experiences, needs to make, for the more bouncier Australian wickets.  Or the various fine-tuning tweaks required to try and shut down the scoring zones of certain batsmen who may be well set when he gets the ball in hand as the 3rd seamer.  These aren't "unfair" observations, they are what they are.  Reasonable projections and concerns based on what we have seen him do so far.

 

This is not to deny Siraj's potential and promise as a red ball bowler - I feel that he is an attacking bowler by instinct - a guy who targets the stumps and looks to take wickets.  And is plenty quick.  A bowler like that can be very useful if he is able to deploy and execute his skillset accurately and consistently.  

 

FWIW I hope he gets to play and does well.  We are all fans here, nothing more I'd like to see than a young Siraj putting up a nice debut, maybe a 5-fer.  But my perspective and opinion have reasonable logic to them - calling them "unfair" needs more evidence than what you have provided.

This absolutely unfair,

have you really seen him bowl with red ball?

If you had,you would have never written such a long post that too based on his white ball cricket.Even greats of the game couldn't do justice with all formats

Not saying Siraj will run through Aussie line up,yes he looked nervous in t20 cricket but unfortunately has always been seen playing white ball cricket on national tv enough for the masses to hold an opinion

Why one has to draw similarity between t20s and tests?they are quite different

You can bowl with aggressive field placements throughout a test

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Suhaan

[putrevus]

Playing Siraj or Saini is not an attacking option at all.


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[Ankit_sharma03]

6 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Did either of you worthies bother watching Umesh and Siraj bowl against Aus A yesterday? 

have u ever watched umesh bowl in practice games, he is the DK of practice games....

Have u watched umesh bowl overseas his whole career, infact away from india .....now ur telling to forget all that for one particular day when many players try different things in practice games rather focussing on what they do . 

Also have u seen umesh bowl when their is help , watch that binny 6 fer game scorecard or Ind-sl 2017 kolkata test , u knw why he struggles coz he tries even more whereas u have to keep simple

 

yes i did watch and its some thing that i have seen time n again . The kind of performances umesh has had away from india he shud run through sides to be considered 

[putrevus]

People who scream about being conservative need to understand if talent is just a toss up then you are better off going with experience.

I would always choose guy like Pant over Saha. But Umesh over Saini or Siraj.

I would fast track Tyagi over guys like Siraj and Saini.Unfortunately Tyagi is too raw and inexperienced.


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[Ankit_sharma03]

Also when is this circle going to end - 

They are not experienced so lets bench them in Eng 

They are not experienced so lets bench them in NZ

Shami and umesh are irreplaceable in Indian condition

They are not experienced so lets bench them in Aus

 

So when are they suppose to play and become experienced player, Siraj has done everything one can ask for in A games

[sandeep]

27 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

This absolutely unfair,

have you really seen him bowl with red ball?

If you had,you would have never written such a long post that too based on his white ball cricket.Even greats of the game couldn't do justice with all formats

Not saying Siraj will run through Aussie line up,yes he looked nervous in t20 cricket but unfortunately has always been seen playing white ball cricket on national tv enough for the masses to hold an opinion

 

I have watched his red ball bowling in Indian FC, as well as A tours.  

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

lso when is this circle going to end - 

 

 

So when are they suppose to play and become experienced player, Siraj has done everything one can ask for in A games

 

Selection in a key test series, is not about what they have "done" in the past in A games or whatever.  It is solely about what  they can do for the team in that upcoming match.  Current, form, fitness, rhythm, skill levels, adaptability - all of this unquestionably plays a role.  So does team balance.

 

Let's take a hypothetical scenario where it was Shami who was out injured instead of Ishant, and the question was who should partner Bumrah and Ishant as the 3rd seamer.  It would be an absolute slam dunk for me to slot in Siraj as the 3rd pacer then.  But that's NOT the situation right now.  Can you appreciate the difference in selection criteria for those 2 different scenarios? Try and think about that for a minute.  

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

31 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

Selection in a key test series, is not about what they have "done" in the past in A games or whatever.  It is solely about what  they can do for the team in that upcoming match.  Current, form, fitness, rhythm, skill levels, adaptability - all of this unquestionably plays a role.  So does team balance.

 

hows is this current form analyzed on one days of bowling knowing in past Umesh has done this time n again after Practice games.

N what has changed from past ? If anything his pace is not same n bouncer also not as good as it was on his 1st Aus tour....Had this guy come from a county stint performing i still would have bought it but they all are coming from lockdown n IPL....so where is form n fitness check? and adaptability seriously ?? if that was umesh strength he wud have never struggled in LOI or test away from India 

 

31 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

Let's take a hypothetical scenario where it was Shami who was out injured instead of Ishant, and the question was who should partner Bumrah and Ishant as the 3rd seamer.  It would be an absolute slam dunk for me to slot in Siraj as the 3rd pacer then.  But that's NOT the situation right now.  Can you appreciate the difference in selection criteria for those 2 different scenarios? Try and think about that for a minute.  

 

 

Be it anyone Umesh is a strict no no Away from India

Umesh vs Siraj is not about role its about Proven failure vs giving someone a chance 

 

What has ppl seen of siraj to even judge him ?? If u say u have seen his A game well then u shud know he took 40 wkts in 5 games across conditions against diff A sides 

 

Oh yea i remember since u said ppl wont throw wkts in red ball like tripathi did it in that game ..here see shaw dismissal 

 

 

 

 

[adi B]

Is tyagi in the squad?I'd pick him above any of the other 3 .

But if not, I'd pick umesh purely because of his knack of breaking partnerships (although he's bad in Australia) ,I believe saini and siraj will be destroyed in australia ,Siraj night be useful in the D/N match