We celebrate Ashwin for his home test dominance - but Rangana Herath for SL has been equally dominant ( if not better ) - Indian hype ?

[Gollum]

12 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

You guys completely miss the point. 

 

We have for the longest time accused Murali  ( and now Herath ) of getting 100's of cheap test wickets ( which he has no doubt).

We as in ICF community? Some of us here have discounted Murali's record only because of chucking (we do the same with Ajmal, Harbhajan) and excessive matches against 2000s BD and Taibu's Zimbabwe. 

 

I don't remember us talking about 'cheap wickets' in any other context and hardly any criticism directed towards Herath regarding the same. Herath had a legal action, didn't feast on D grade teams like Murali. He is rated fine, deserved acclaim, nothing more, nothing less. 

Quote

But we don't apply the same standards to our spinnners who get their share of cheap wickets like Ashwin has.

Ashwin, Jadeja get plenty of flak and excessive, often undeserved criticism for their home/away skew. Again when you say 'we' who are you referring to? I wasn't sure of that, hence my long post previously. 

Quote

Regarding Ashwin vs. Herath in Lanka - cannot judge someone just based on one head to head - he has succeeded against all other teams at home.

I didn't mention that in my post. 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Gollum

[zen]

12 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

You guys completely miss the point. 

 

We have for the longest time accused Murali  ( and now Herath ) of getting 100's of cheap test wickets ( which he has no doubt).

 

But we don't apply the same standards to our spinnners who get their share of cheap wickets like Ashwin has.

 

Regarding Ashwin vs. Herath in Lanka - cannot judge someone just based on one head to head - he has succeeded against all other teams at home.

 

Just like Murali and Warne become powerless in India against our batters ( does not mean they are lesser bowlers - arguably 2 of the greatest spinners ever ) 

 

 

As you would not judge how good Herath is based on how SL fans rate him, you would not judge how good Ashwin is on how Ind fans rate him ... Only a handful of fans would want to have honest discussions on cricket  

Edited March 8, 2021 by zen

[Vijy]

13 minutes ago, zen said:

 

It could be more like others should have bowled or played more ... Ind may need to chose its spinner, esp. if only 1, more wisely 

yes, on single spinner pitches, it should be jadeja (and 2-spinner pitches should be Ashwin & Jaddu). I think TM has, however, reversed this policy.

[rangeelaraja]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

We as in ICF community? Some of us here have discounted Murali's record only because of chucking (we do the same with Ajmal, Harbhajan) and excessive matches against 2000s BD and Taibu's Zimbabwe. 

 

I don't remember us talking about 'cheap wickets' in any other context and hardly any criticism directed towards Herath regarding the same. Herath had a legal action, didn't feast on D grade teams like Murali. He is rated fine, deserved acclaim, nothing more, nothing less. 

Ashwin, Jadeja get plenty of flak and excessive, often undeserved criticism for their home/away skew. Again when you say 'we' who are you referring to? I wasn't sure of that, hence my long post previously. 

I didn't mention that in my post. 

 

 

I meant we as in Indian fans ( ICF and otherwsie)  media, commentators etc. who just see things one way.

[Gollum]

1 minute ago, rangeelaraja said:

I meant we as in Indian fans ( ICF and otherwsie)  media, commentators etc. who just see things one way.

Ok then, I addressed that in my earlier post, ignore the last para of that essay. 

[vvvslaxman]

Agree with Gollum. This is an absurd topic. Indian fans ofcourse will celebrate their biggest match winner. 8 man of the series awards already.  A bowler with an average in the mid 20s something Indian fans craved for. That too after 400 plus wickets. 

 

In history

 

6th fastest to reach 100 wickets (2nd fastest to reach 100 wickets post world war behind yasir shah)

3rd fastest to reach 100 wickets 

Fastest to reach 300 wickets

2nd fastest to reach 400 wickets

 

These are incredible achievements. Ofcourse he deserves every ounce of hype. I am sure Srilankans hype Herath as much as we hype Ashwin. Why does it bother you? Ashwin also for a period did do well in the limited overs as well.  Impressive IPL records as well.

 

AMong spinners for India

 

111 ODIs  32.91 avge 4.91 ER  Only Kuldeep/Kumble have better averages than this among 100 plus wicket takers

  46 T20is  22.94 avge 6.97 ER  Second highest wicket taker in India for T20s among spinners. Chahal first who goes 8.29 per over. Ashwin 6.97 per over. 

 

Add his batting. Some of his innings were produced when India desperately needed. 

 

He is an out and out match winner that we should be proud of.

 

Herath can take a hike. If you want to worship him nobody is stopping you. Don't drag Ashwin down to hype Herath.

 

 

 

 

 

[rangeelaraja]

49 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Agree with Gollum. This is an absurd topic. Indian fans ofcourse will celebrate their biggest match winner. 8 man of the series awards already.  A bowler with an average in the mid 20s something Indian fans craved for. That too after 400 plus wickets. 

 

In history

 

6th fastest to reach 100 wickets (2nd fastest to reach 100 wickets post world war behind yasir shah)

3rd fastest to reach 100 wickets 

Fastest to reach 300 wickets

2nd fastest to reach 400 wickets

 

These are incredible achievements. Ofcourse he deserves every ounce of hype. I am sure Srilankans hype Herath as much as we hype Ashwin. Why does it bother you? Ashwin also for a period did do well in the limited overs as well.  Impressive IPL records as well.

 

AMong spinners for India

 

111 ODIs  32.91 avge 4.91 ER  Only Kuldeep/Kumble have better averages than this among 100 plus wicket takers

  46 T20is  22.94 avge 6.97 ER  Second highest wicket taker in India for T20s among spinners. Chahal first who goes 8.29 per over. Ashwin 6.97 per over. 

 

Add his batting. Some of his innings were produced when India desperately needed. 

 

He is an out and out match winner that we should be proud of.

 

Herath can take a hike. If you want to worship him nobody is stopping you. Don't drag Ashwin down to hype Herath.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Relax dude. Don't get hyper. Your Blood pressure will shoot up. You are taking a critical analysis on a cricketer as if someone has hurled a personal insult to you.

 

No one is here to worship anyone.

 

Let Axar also play 47 home test matches , like the England series - he will break all those fastest multiple of 100 records.

 

No one is denying Ashwin's great performances for India pivoted around home dominance.

 

Unlike you I don't believe in mindless, senseless hyping. I look for quality beyond bare raw home numbers and if you don't, you don't understand cricket. 

 

Celebrating a player is one thing. Losing objectivity, unexplained hyping  and having double standards is another. 

 

For example for ODIS - there has not been a better spinner than Saqlain Mushtaq. 

 

I dont know a single spinner who was slotted by the captain to bowl in the death overs because he was so hard to hit out  - even more so than express pacers bowling yorkers.

 

I remember in several matches we played Pakisthan in the late 90's and 2000's our batters then who were otherwise phenomenal against spinners - struggled to hit out against Saqlain in the death overs.  He was that good. Averaged 21.78 in ODIS with the ball.

 

Was the inventor of the doosra and was the ONLY spinner I know stood toe to toe with Anil Kumble in terms of dominating on Indian soil before injuries ruined his career.

 

Don't forget that Ashwin was throughly outbowled in both the innings by Moin Ali in Rose Bowl in 2018.

 

I am not judging him by his bad numbers only   - i am just saying we hype players too much. When an Asian batsman totally utterly dominates on Asia soil but becomes 50 % less outside Asia,  we are quick to adjudicate him as flat track bully, but one become very sensitive when it is pointed out that our spinner has a lopsided home-away record.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[zen]

8 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Don't forget that Ashwin was throughly outbowled in both the innings by Moin Ali in Rose Bowl in 2018.

Forget overseas, Ashwin went missing in the first inning in Chennai, when as an experienced spinner, he should have put his hand up. If you usually perform when pitch supports you 90-100%, what is the point 

[Vijy]

22 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Relax dude. Don't get hyper. Your Blood pressure will shoot up. You are taking a critical analysis on a cricketer as if someone has hurled a personal insult to you.

 

No one is here to worship anyone.

 

Let Axar also play 47 home test matches , like the England series - he will break all those fastest multiple of 100 records.

 

No one is denying Ashwin's great performances for India pivoted around home dominance.

 

Unlike you I don't believe in mindless, senseless hyping. I look for quality beyond bare raw home numbers and if you don't, you don't understand cricket. 

 

Celebrating a player is one thing. Losing objectivity, unexplained hyping  and having double standards is another. 

 

For example for ODIS - there has not been a better spinner than Saqlain Mushtaq. 

 

I dont know a single spinner who was slotted by the captain to bowl in the death overs because he was so hard to hit out  - even more so than express pacers bowling yorkers.

 

I remember in several matches we played Pakisthan in the late 90's and 2000's our batters then who were otherwise phenomenal against spinners - struggled to hit out against Saqlain in the death overs.  He was that good. Averaged 21.78 in ODIS with the ball.

 

Was the inventor of the doosra and was the ONLY spinner I know stood toe to toe with Anil Kumble in terms of dominating on Indian soil before injuries ruined his career.

 

Don't forget that Ashwin was throughly outbowled in both the innings by Moin Ali in Rose Bowl in 2018.

 

I am not judging him by his bad numbers only   - i am just saying we hype players too much. When an Asian batsman totally utterly dominates on Asia soil but becomes 50 % less outside Asia,  we are quick to adjudicate him as flat track bully, but one become very sensitive when it is pointed out that our spinner has a lopsided home-away record.

 

 

 

 

 

 

it's not just our spinners. many of our pacers are also HTBs, who have much better records at home than abroad. this is ICF as gollum has pointed out, so obviously there is more interest in praising Indian cricketers as opposed to players from other countries. however, most serious ICFers I know would not rate ashwin with someone like warne for instance.

[Vijy]

12 minutes ago, zen said:

Forget overseas, Ashwin went missing in the first inning in Chennai, when as an experienced spinner, he should have put his hand up. If you usually perform when pitch supports you 90-100%, what is the point 

yes, he went missing. it's to be expected when he was coming from a serious injury in Oz. perhaps you didn't watch how he bowled in the first 2 tests there. no one is perfect and will perform every single innings. even bradman struggled against high-quality spin (e.g., verity, hollies) and on bowling-friendly tracks (where headley/McCabe were better).

 

On the one hand, there are ICFers who hype Ashwin more than Murali & Warne. on the other, there are people who will keep continuously harping on Jo'burg, Rose Bowl, and so on. Fact of the matter is that Ashwin is one of Ind's best spinners at home in our entire cricketing history. but this does not mean he is automatically jim laker, shane warne, bill o'reilly, etc.

[zen]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Fact of the matter is that Ashwin is one of Ind's best spinners at home in our entire cricketing history. but this does not mean he is automatically jim laker, shane warne, bill o'reilly, etc.

Ashwin is a good but I have stopped rating Ind spinner post 1990 (when you saw Raju and Joshi make hay) as great. To me they are the poster boys of “lions at home, lambs abroad” tag line long associated with Ind cricket. 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, zen said:

Ashwin is a good but I have stopped rating Ind spinner post 1990 (when you saw Raju and Joshi make hay) as great. To me they are the poster boys of “lions at home, lambs abroad” tag line long associated with Ind cricket. 

it's true that gupte, chandra do have solid overseas records compared to those who debuted in 1990 onwards. If Jadeja is given a continuous run, I believe he could become one of them too. I think his overseas record in the past 2-3 yrs is very good - around 26 bowling avg in SENA.

[rangeelaraja]

16 minutes ago, zen said:

Ashwin is a good but I have stopped rating Ind spinner post 1990 (when you saw Raju and Joshi make hay) as great. To me they are the poster boys of “lions at home, lambs abroad” tag line long associated with Ind cricket. 

 

 

Exactly !!!! You hit the nail on the head my friend. 

 

The moment a bowler  ( doesn't matter spinner / fast bowler/ medium pacer  ) etc...is seen as 2nd class bowler by his own captain in another country's soil - immediately i will apply many asterix to that bowlers greatness.

 

Did Australia ever treat Glenn Mcgrath as second class bowler in Asian conditions which favor spinners. Hell no. He has infact performed superbly in India as a frontline bowler even in Indian conditions.

 

Did Australia ever treat Shane Warne as a second class bowler in South African and NZ conditions  that are not friendly for spinner ?. Hell no.

Shane Warne's numbers on the seaming pitches in South Africa and NZ are better than most fast bowlers ( avg in early 20's ) 

 

This is called greatness.

 

Beyond the mindless brainless hyping where you fill in your shoes on home tracks and are a 2nd class bowler outside your home shores for most of your career.

 

Thats not greatness. 

 

And here we have people saying how great is he ...fastest 200 , 300, etc etc. 

 

Difference between people who understand cricket and who don't.

Edited March 8, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[vvvslaxman]

4 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Relax dude. Don't get hyper. Your Blood pressure will shoot up. You are taking a critical analysis on a cricketer as if someone has hurled a personal insult to you.

 

No one is here to worship anyone.

 

Let Axar also play 47 home test matches , like the England series - he will break all those fastest multiple of 100 records.

 

No one is denying Ashwin's great performances for India pivoted around home dominance.

 

Unlike you I don't believe in mindless, senseless hyping. I look for quality beyond bare raw home numbers and if you don't, you don't understand cricket. 

 

Celebrating a player is one thing. Losing objectivity, unexplained hyping  and having double standards is another. 

 

For example for ODIS - there has not been a better spinner than Saqlain Mushtaq. 

 

I dont know a single spinner who was slotted by the captain to bowl in the death overs because he was so hard to hit out  - even more so than express pacers bowling yorkers.

 

I remember in several matches we played Pakisthan in the late 90's and 2000's our batters then who were otherwise phenomenal against spinners - struggled to hit out against Saqlain in the death overs.  He was that good. Averaged 21.78 in ODIS with the ball.

 

Was the inventor of the doosra and was the ONLY spinner I know stood toe to toe with Anil Kumble in terms of dominating on Indian soil before injuries ruined his career.

 

Don't forget that Ashwin was throughly outbowled in both the innings by Moin Ali in Rose Bowl in 2018.

 

I am not judging him by his bad numbers only   - i am just saying we hype players too much. When an Asian batsman totally utterly dominates on Asia soil but becomes 50 % less outside Asia,  we are quick to adjudicate him as flat track bully, but one become very sensitive when it is pointed out that our spinner has a lopsided home-away record.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Players are hyped after 3 tests. Ashwin being one of the most overexposed bowler (thanks to IPL) in the last 10 years cannot be hyped after 400 wickets? Seriously.  This is another absurd reply.  No name bowlers have outbowled warne/herath/murali in India. So this "outbowling" nonsense has to stop. In many instances some amazing fast bowlers don't get wickets but bowlers at other end reap rewards. That doesn't mean they are being "out bowled".   Also extrapolating someone's career based on first 3 tests is another nonsense.  More you get exposed easier will be for the batsmen. When Mendis made debut Bedi said he will take 500 wickets. Where is he now?  Seriously what is the point of your thread? He has bagged 32 wickets and won his 8th man of the series. You are opening a thread saying "why are we not sucking up to Herath" lol What is the point of this thread? Tell me? 

[rangeelaraja]

4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Players are hyped after 3 tests. Ashwin being one of the most overexposed bowler (thanks to IPL) in the last 10 years cannot be hyped after 400 wickets? Seriously.  This is another absurd reply.  No name bowlers have outbowled warne/herath/murali in India. So this "outbowling" nonsense has to stop. In many instances some amazing fast bowlers don't get wickets but bowlers at other end reap rewards. That doesn't mean they are being "out bowled".   Also extrapolating someone's career based on first 3 tests is another nonsense.  More you get exposed easier will be for the batsmen. When Mendis made debut Bedi said he will take 500 wickets. Where is he now?  Seriously what is the point of your thread? He has bagged 32 wickets and won his 8th man of the series. You are opening a thread saying "why are we not sucking up to Herath" lol What is the point of this thread? Tell me? 

You are the one sucking upto Ashwjn. 

I don’t suck up to any player, I am just exposing the hypocrisy of fanboys like you. 
 

YOU CAN KEEP HARPING 8th man of the match series, fastest 200, 300 etc. 

 

Read my last response above -  when someone is a 2nd class bowler as soon as he leaves his comfort shores - he cannot be great in the truest sense.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

You are the one sucking upto Ashwjn. 

I don’t suck up to any player, I am just exposing the hypocrisy of fanboys like you. 
 

YOU CAN KEEP HARPING 8th man of the match series, fastest 200, 300 etc. 

 

Read my last response above -  when someone is a 2nd class bowler as soon as he leaves his comfort shores - he cannot be great in the truest sense.

 

 

 

OFcourse we suck up to our biggest match winner. In the recent series losses it is the batsmen that went missing. Not the bowlers. Kohli went missing in several tests overseas. Tendulkar went missing too. It was Dravid that helped some fine overseas wins. 

[rangeelaraja]

56 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

OFcourse we suck up to our biggest match winner. In the recent series losses it is the batsmen that went missing. Not the bowlers. Kohli went missing in several tests overseas. Tendulkar went missing too. It was Dravid that helped some fine overseas wins. 

 

Your problem is you don’t see beyond raw numbers.

 

Yasir Shah has 5 man of the series award in a mere 45 test matches.  Kumble has only 4 in 132 test matches. That must make Yasir Shah a better bowler according to your logic.

 

For the millionth time Nobody is taking anything away from Ashwin who is an ATG bowler for us. 

 

I am just putting things in perspective - the truely great bowlers are frontline bowlers in all conditions across the world. 

 

Ashwin is NOT in that class - he can keep filling up his boots at home.

Edited March 9, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[kohli]

Because overall ashwin is miles better than Herath.herath played 15 more test & took only 24 more wickets compared to ashwin. Ashwin avg 24 >> herath avg 28.

[Majestic]

Ashwin outperforming Herath in Sri Lanka and India both is not the only factor for him to be rated ahead of Herath. It is one of several other factors.

 

Ashwin also has an overall career better average and if you consider top 8 teams, Herath stats further go for the toss.

 

Herath is a SL great but Ashwin is a better bowler than him, has played more tougher games than him in his overall career and when you count his batting, he is a genuine ATG. 

[R!TTER]

On 3/7/2021 at 8:43 PM, rangeelaraja said:

Is it because of how are media and fans hype India given our massive size ?

 

I rate Jadeja (at home) higher - always have, just on top of my head here's some exceptional performances from him :

 

Bangalore vs SA 2015, Delhi (1st innings) same series, Eng at Chennai 2016, Ranchi 2017 vs Oz - in each case wickets were flat/dead as dodo & jadeja vastly oubowled ethical mind.

 

This is why I rate Jadeja so high 

 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Home or away home venue

Start of match date between 10 Feb 2015 and 10 Feb 2021

Innings in match 1st innings

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 3

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
UT Yadav	2016-2019	11	11	202.0	31	695	26	6/88	10/133	26.73	3.44	46.6	1	1
RA Jadeja	2015-2019	12	12	284.4	43	805	27	5/124	10/154	29.81	2.82	63.2	1	1
R Ashwin	2015-2021	13	12	385.3	50	1079	29	6/112	12/167	37.20	2.79	79.7	1	1

 

Now this is slightly unfair on Ashwin as Jadeja didn't play the first Chennai test but can anyone deny Ashwin was below subpar that game? And here's the kicker, against non minnows

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or South Africa

Home or away home venue

Start of match date between 10 Feb 2015 and 10 Feb 2021

Innings in match 1st innings

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 10

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 3 of 3

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
RA Jadeja	2015-2017	8	8	239.4	37	665	24	5/124	10/154	27.70	2.77	59.9	1	1
UT Yadav	2016-2017	7	7	137.5	19	488	15	4/32	6/71	32.53	3.54	55.1	0	0
R Ashwin	2015-2021	9	9	317.0	35	920	22	6/112	12/167	41.81	2.90	86.4	1	1

Edited March 9, 2021 by R!TTER