We celebrate Ashwin for his home test dominance - but Rangana Herath for SL has been equally dominant ( if not better ) - Indian hype ?

[rangeelaraja]

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;home_or_away=1;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

List of highest wicket takers in home conditions.

 

Herath has similar number of wickets ( 280 odd )  in a similar number of innings bowled ( 91/92) , taken 2 more 5W halls and 1 more 10W hall than Ashwin with a slightly inferior bowling average.

 

I know he has retired 2 years ago, but we never saw the  same global hype around Herath's bowling performances as we do for Ashwin.

 

Is it because of how are media and fans hype India given our massive size ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Vijy]

31 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;home_or_away=1;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

List of highest wicket takers in home conditions.

 

Herath has similar number of wickets ( 280 odd )  in a similar number of innings bowled ( 91/92) , taken 2 more 5W halls and 1 more 10W hall than Ashwin with a slightly inferior bowling average.

 

I know he has retired 2 years ago, but we never saw the  same global hype around Herath's bowling performances as we do for Ashwin.

 

Is it because of how are media and fans hype India given our massive size ?

 

 

 

 

 

There are different reasons. First, if you read some Eng papers in particular (but also others), you will see that there's no real praise for Ashwin; just a grudging "acknowledgment" that he is a HTB (which is not accurate in the past few yrs). Second, Herath has indeed been underrated to some extent - I think he is possibly the best SLA in the 21st century, although Jaddu has done remarkably too. Third, Herath's avg is about 2 pts more and his SR is 4 pts higher - for great bowlers, even these smaller differentials matter (e.g., take a bowler who averages 24 and one who has 22). Fourth, Ashwin has a better track record in many countries outside home compared to Herath (except for a couple like SA). Herath was so-so even in rest of SC - nearly 30 in Pak and UAE, around 54 in Ind, and over 40 in Bang. I think whatever praise Ashwin has earned has grown with his increasing skill outside India.

[rangeelaraja]

45 minutes ago, Vijy said:

There are different reasons. First, if you read some Eng papers in particular (but also others), you will see that there's no real praise for Ashwin; just a grudging "acknowledgment" that he is a HTB (which is not accurate in the past few yrs). Second, Herath has indeed been underrated to some extent - I think he is possibly the best SLA in the 21st century, although Jaddu has done remarkably too. Third, Herath's avg is about 2 pts more and his SR is 4 pts higher - for great bowlers, even these smaller differentials matter (e.g., take a bowler who averages 24 and one who has 22). Fourth, Ashwin has a better track record in many countries outside home compared to Herath (except for a couple like SA). Herath was so-so even in rest of SC - nearly 30 in Pak and UAE, around 54 in Ind, and over 40 in Bang. I think whatever praise Ashwin has earned has grown with his increasing skill outside India.

 

 

With your own arguments - Herath was a greater bowler than Anil Kumble in home conditions  - he has a slightly better average, much better strike rate,  more 5W / innings and same number of 10W/match ( inspite of playing lesser games).

 

 

I don't think that is true.

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Ashwin has done well in all the subcontinental conditions like Srilanka/Bangladesh. Herath's record is poor both in Bangladesh and India. At home he is poor against India.  Look at Herath's record in West Indies comapre with Ashwin's.

 

Ashwin away

in SL  21.54 avge/41.1 SR

in WI 23.17 avge/46.2 SR

in BD 19.00 avge/37.2 SR

Herath away

in Ind  54.33 avge/97.7 SR

in WI  72.66 avge/206 SR

in BD 40.15 avge/67.6 SR

 

Ashwin vs SL in India is his worst home record against any country which is 29

Herath vs India in SL is his worst home record against any country which is 44

[rangeelaraja]

14 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Ashwin has done well in all the subcontinental conditions like Srilanka/Bangladesh. Herath's record is poor both in Bangladesh and India. At home he is poor against India.  Look at Herath's record in West Indies comapre with Ashwin's.

 

Ashwin away

in SL  21.54 avge/41.1 SR

in WI 23.17 avge/46.2 SR

in BD 19.00 avge/37.2 SR

Herath away

in Ind  54.33 avge/97.7 SR

in WI  72.66 avge/206 SR

in BD 40.15 avge/67.6 SR

 

Ashwin vs SL in India is his worst home record against any country which is 29

Herath vs India in SL is his worst home record against any country which is 44

 

 

I am talking only about home test dominance, if other sub-continental pitches is also factored, then Kumble's record is also very ordinary in  Srilanka and Pakistan.

 

Kumble away

in SL  44.63 avge/93.0 SR

in Pak 42.41 avge/68.3 SR

 

 

Also you missed out Herath's relatively better performance in UAE utterly flat tracks against Pakistan from 2011-2017

Herath away

In UAE against Pak   28.65 avg/68.1 SR

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

I am talking only about home test dominance, if other sub-continental pitches is also factored, then Kumble's record is also very ordinary in  Srilanka and Pakistan.

 

Kumble away

in SL  44.63 avge/93.0 SR

in Pak 42.41 avge/68.3 SR

 

 

Also you missed out Herath's relatively better performance in UAE utterly flat tracks against Pakistan from 2011-2017

Herath away

In UAE against Pak   28.65 avg/68.1 SR

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is just Pakistan. Kumble played vs Pakistan in the era of Inzamam/Anwar/Younis khan/Moyo.  This side is not the same. Current Pakistan team has deep scars against Herath.

[zen]

3 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

Is it because of how are media and fans hype India given our massive size ?

 

Ind is full of Home ATGs ... If Axar plays for some time, he could join the list too

[rangeelaraja]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

It is just Pakistan. Kumble played vs Pakistan in the era of Inzamam/Anwar/Younis khan/Moyo.  This side is not the same. Current Pakistan team has deep scars against Herath.

 

 

Correction.  Kumble never played a single away test match in Pakistan with Anwar playing. Anwar retired in 2001.

 

Herath also faced Misbah and Younis  for most of the tests vs. Pak in UAE ( both Younis and Misbah arguably best players of spin from Pak ) 

 

Pound for Pound - Axar outbowled Ashwin vs. England  - with better numbers. Ashwin took  a few more wickets because he played an extra test.

 

Even when Jaddu has been in the XI, he has managed to run through sides often in situations where Ashwin has not been able to penetrate batting line ups.

 

There will always be exceptions and 1-2 bad away tours.

 

The point is -as dominant as Ashwin is in his home conditions - Herath was equally as dominant in his home conditions  - without the exceptional hype.

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by rangeelaraja

[Majestic]

39 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

Correction.  Kumble never played a single away test match in Pakistan with Anwar playing. Anwar retired in 2001.

 

Herath also faced Misbah and Younis  for most of the tests vs. Pak in UAE ( both Younis and Misbah arguably best players of spin from Pak ) 

 

Pound for Pound - Axar outbowled Ashwin vs. England  - with better numbers. Ashwin took  a few more wickets because he played an extra test.

 

Even when Jaddu has been in the XI, he has managed to run through sides often in situations where Ashwin has not been able to penetrate batting line ups.

 

There will always be exceptions and 1-2 bad away tours.

 

The point is -as dominant as Ashwin is in his home conditions - Herath was equally as dominant in his home conditions  - without the exceptional hype.

 

What about

 

Ashwin kept outbowling and outperforming Herath in his own country, Sri Lanka? How you describe that?

 

Ashwin averaged 18 in that series, while Herath averaged 31 and Ashwin was player of series.

[rangeelaraja]

32 minutes ago, Majestic said:

What about

 

Ashwin kept outbowling and outperforming Herath in his own country, Sri Lanka? How you describe that?

 

Ashwin averaged 18 in that series, while Herath averaged 31 and Ashwin was player of series.

 

 

A series here and there cannot define a player.  So stop clutching at straws. 

 

Both Swann ( avg 24 ) and Panesar ( avg 26 )  comprehensively out-bowled Ashwin  ( avg 52 ) in 2012 in India.

England in India 2012 - Swann and Panesar outperform Ashwin.

 

 

Does that make them better bowlers ?

[Rasgulla]

When ever see this name all i hear is "Rangana Rangana Rangana" - Sanga. In my head 

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

Correction.  Kumble never played a single away test match in Pakistan with Anwar playing. Anwar retired in 2001.

 

Herath also faced Misbah and Younis  for most of the tests vs. Pak in UAE ( both Younis and Misbah arguably best players of spin from Pak ) 

 

Pound for Pound - Axar outbowled Ashwin vs. England  - with better numbers. Ashwin took  a few more wickets because he played an extra test.

 

Even when Jaddu has been in the XI, he has managed to run through sides often in situations where Ashwin has not been able to penetrate batting line ups.

 

There will always be exceptions and 1-2 bad away tours.

 

The point is -as dominant as Ashwin is in his home conditions - Herath was equally as dominant in his home conditions  - without the exceptional hype.

 

 

Herath picked 66% of his wickets at home on just 2 grounds. 102 wickets at Galle, 84 at the SSC. India has wide range of  surfaces. Not all of them will help spinners. Some will be very good good for batting. He is a home track bully on only slow/low pitches like premadasa stadium. 

[Vijy]

5 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

With your own arguments - Herath was a greater bowler than Anil Kumble in home conditions  - he has a slightly better average, much better strike rate,  more 5W / innings and same number of 10W/match ( inspite of playing lesser games).

 

 

I don't think that is true.

 

 

 

you just focused on one of my four arguments and did not respond to the other three. and it's possible that herath is better than kumble in home conditions because he took nearly 200 wkts on just 2 tracks which were consistently designed to be turners. whereas kumble did not pick nearly 100 wkts on a single ground in india.

[Majestic]

2 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

 

A series here and there cannot define a player.  So stop clutching at straws. 

 

Both Swann ( avg 24 ) and Panesar ( avg 26 )  comprehensively out-bowled Ashwin  ( avg 52 ) in 2012 in India.

England in India 2012 - Swann and Panesar outperform Ashwin.

 

 

Does that make them better bowlers ?

Okay then you look at their entire career and Ashwin has better record still.

 

Ashwin has outperformed Lyon and Herath in the series played against each other in their backyard again and again.

 

Ashwin also has better record than Herath overall. Herath averages 28, Swann 29 and Ashwin 25.

 

[Vk1]

can we check his home stats removing BD,ZIM and WI ?

[Vijy]

15 minutes ago, Vk1 said:

can we check his home stats removing BD,ZIM and WI ?

one should remove Pak too since they usually run away screaming when they saw mr. roly-poly (aka herath) rolling in.

[Trichromatic]

And Herath was also rated highly during 2010s. He was named "Herath the destroyer" for a reason.

[Trichromatic]

5 hours ago, zen said:

 

Ind is full of Home ATGs ... If Axar plays for some time, he could join the list too

 

Doesn't work in cricket.

 

It's so easy that any XYZ can play N number of matches and replicate top performances.

 

Only if cricketing performances were linear and extrapolation was so easy.

[Lone Wolf]

Probably coz Herath struggled in India..  Though he didn't play much.  Herath is surely an ATG for lankan cricket.  That Galle 2015 performance vs India is his only match winning one. 

[Trichromatic]

3 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Probably coz Herath struggled in India..  Though he didn't play much.  Herath is surely an ATG for lankan cricket.  That Galle 2015 performance vs India is his only match winning one. 

 

Assumption of the thread is that Herath didn't have same hype at home.

 

And we are trying to answer that assumption.

 

But is that assumption even correct? Herath was always considered big threat even when SL were defending low totals.