What can we learn from the leading county wicket takers in the last 4 years?

[Majestic]

What India can learn is to play Siraj in the WTC final. I am not sure if that is happening though. Siraj is truly a wonderful new bowl bowler.

[Adamant]

6 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Shankar, Chahar are serious miss on this tour and even porel. 

If it was upto me Prasidh n Avesh wud have been in SL and Porel , chahar in england....infact sandeep sharma shud have been taken as a net bowler. 

Bro you are overrating these trundlers. 

Secondly, the most important thing that you fail to realise is that experience and time spent in first class is way more important. These Chahars and Shankars will bowl one good spell and will start bowling trash in the next one, regular test match practice is important. Just because a bowler can move the ball doesn't mean he will be successful in England, you need to hit that 4th stump line consistently, that's what james anderson does. 

 

[express bowling]

37 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

and the biggest reason was warne and mcgrath .

In 2005 england put a decent side and mcgrath got injured , warne was at his best yet they lost . Aussies had Lee n tait ...gillespie wasnt in form and Kasporwiz was much more suited to subcontinental conditions

Aussies didnt had any specfic bowler in rank for england conditions.

 

Im not saying ignore all condition bowler 5 out of 6 has to be all condition or atl;east 4 but that 1-2 pick on condition coz in case of injuries they ll be damn good replacements as conditions are making them better bowler

 

But again ur talking of a diff era, high time things evolve  . If you have that kind of bench strength use it to best.....even aus if they wish to beat India in india start looking at ashton agar for that one tour 

 

 

 

 

The biggest issue with horses for courses approach is that it hinders the development of the next gen all-condition players.

 

Dhawan playing tests in 2017 kept Rahul out of the test side. Rahul had the potential to be an all condition test batsman while Dhawan did not. But that break stopped Rahul's progress as a test batsman.

 

Umesh Yadav playing almost all tests in India resulted in Siraj's debut being pushed back by 2.5 years.

 

Prasidh and Avesh are in the test squad because they are thought to be the next-gen all-condition pacers. It will help them develop faster. 

 

If Sandeep Sharma was there instead then his inclusion would have hindered the development of the next gen all-condition pacers.

 

 

[Adamant]

8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

The biggest issue with horses for courses approach is that it hinders the development of the next gen all-condition players.

 

Dhawan playing tests in 2017 kept Rahul out of the test side. Rahul had the potential to be an all condition test batsman while Dhawan did not. But that break stopped Rahul's progress as a test batsman.

 

Umesh Yadav playing almost all tests in India resulted in Siraj's debut being pushed back by 2.5 years.

 

Prasidh and Avesh are in the test squad because they are thought to be the next-gen all-condition pacers. It will help them develop faster. 

 

If Sandeep Sharma was there instead then his inclusion would have hindered the development of the next gen all-condition pacers.

 

 

Totally agree with you on this, horses for courses is okay but that means you can have a Siraj ahead of Shami, it doesn't mean that you include some 3rd class ranji 115 kph bowler just bcoz you think he might do well in these particular conditions. 

I haven't ever seen a good team do that. 

 

Secondly I am all for choosing Siraj ahead of Shami in eng but I won't be really worried even if Shami gets picked, for me it's a 60:40 kinda deal. 

I know I Know Shami's stats in eng are not that great but I don't think he is the kind of bowler who can damage our chances in a critical match, I trust him to come up with a much better performance than what he usually does in england. So for me selection of Shami isn't a bug issue, that guy is clutch and just bcoz he hasn't done well on two tours doesn't mean he can't improve his performance this time around. 

Sometimes we see too much into conditions specific performance, for all we know Shami can come up with a second innings fifer and i won't be surprised if that happens 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Adamant

[Ankit_sharma03]

35 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

The biggest issue with horses for courses approach is that it hinders the development of the next gen all-condition players.

 

Dhawan playing tests in 2017 kept Rahul out of the test side. Rahul had the potential to be an all condition test batsman while Dhawan did not. But that break stopped Rahul's progress as a test batsman.

 

clealry mentioned u just need to use it for bowlers not batsman 

 

35 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Umesh Yadav playing almost all tests in India resulted in Siraj's debut being pushed back by 2.5 years.

 

Prasidh and Avesh are in the test squad because they are thought to be the next-gen all-condition pacers. It will help them develop faster. 

 

PRasidh n avesh are also seen as white ball bowler that to in immediate future so bowling in whole Lanka tour as main bowler wud have been better then being in england on bench. N for our  batsman in england facing sharma n chahar wud have been better practice 

 

35 minutes ago, express bowling said:

If Sandeep Sharma was there instead then his inclusion would have hindered the development of the next gen all-condition pacers.

 

 

 

problem with TM they cant differentiate ...so the problem isnt in theory but execution . 

[Ankit_sharma03]

43 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Bro you are overrating these trundlers. 

Secondly, the most important thing that you fail to realise is that experience and time spent in first class is way more important. These Chahars and Shankars will bowl one good spell and will start bowling trash in the next one, regular test match practice is important. Just because a bowler can move the ball doesn't mean he will be successful in England, you need to hit that 4th stump line consistently, that's what james anderson does. 

 

 

Chahar isnt a trundler...PK, sandeep is and PK did very well in england . shankar is just a 5th bowler . The only thing thats overrated in england is speed

If you can move the ball and keep bowling in right slots its enough in england. Finding right length is the key anywhere not just england ......umesh can also move the ball but sprays it on leg

In england it swings all day long coz of dukes n changing weather and if its flat like oval use someone like shami . 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

On 5/23/2021 at 9:57 AM, Lone Wolf said:

We don't know what we will get from legend.  He has MoS level potential but can also lose a test or two by going expensive.  Perhaps playing him in WTC won't be wise but against England definately

if he is consistent with his lines and doesnt experiment to much he ll be very very handy.....he is got a good away going delivery and that shud trouble every top batsman. Even Bharat arun mention about him that he falters when he tries to do to much 

[Khota]

Few things you learn:

 

(1) Bowling slow will not get you in the team.

(2) County cricket is crappy.

(3) It is the quality of wkts that count, not quantity.

[ShoonyaSifar]

All it shows is that medium pacers do well in domestic cricket EVERYWHERE especially when a country has a large number of domestic teams. But it doesn't mean you pick many such medium pacers in the national team. England pick Anderson, Broad, Woakes, Archer, Wood, Currans, Jordan, Topley, Plunkett all capable of going 85+, and only Curran going around 80-82 mph but he's picked as an all-rounder.

[Lone Wolf]

5 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

if he is consistent with his lines and doesnt experiment to much he ll be very very handy.....he is got a good away going delivery and that shud trouble every top batsman. Even Bharat arun mention about him that he falters when he tries to do to much 

I think he might play in first test in Trent bridge & one spinner will be benched.  TB is most seam friendly ground over last few years & perhaps will suit him.  I agree that if he keeps thing simple & stay consistent on channel balls he will be great. 

[express bowling]

12 hours ago, Adamant said:

Totally agree with you on this, horses for courses is okay but that means you can have a Siraj ahead of Shami, it doesn't mean that you include some 3rd class ranji 115 kph bowler just bcoz you think he might do well in these particular conditions. 

I haven't ever seen a good team do that. 

 

 

Very well put.

 

 

12 hours ago, Adamant said:

Secondly I am all for choosing Siraj ahead of Shami in eng but I won't be really worried even if Shami gets picked, for me it's a 60:40 kinda deal. 

I know I Know Shami's stats in eng are not that great but I don't think he is the kind of bowler who can damage our chances in a critical match, I trust him to come up with a much better performance than what he usually does in england. So for me selection of Shami isn't a bug issue, that guy is clutch and just bcoz he hasn't done well on two tours doesn't mean he can't improve his performance this time around. 

Sometimes we see too much into conditions specific performance, for all we know Shami can come up with a second innings fifer and i won't be surprised if that happens 

 

 

Agree.

 

My first 3 choices in England would be Bumrah, Siraj and Ishant ... but my 4th choice would be Shami too, especially if Ishant has fitness issues.

 

Shami did not bowl badly last time in England. But it was one of those series where he was not getting wickets despite bowling good balls. Happens on occasions.

[express bowling]

Here is the list of touring pacers with lowest bowling averages in tests in England in the last 10 years. (  Minimum qualification 10 wickets )

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;home_or_away=2;host=1;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=10;qualval1=wickets;spanmax1=25+May+2021;spanmin1=25+May+2011;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

 

 

Considering pacers with bowling averages of 26.x or less ... 

 

1)   There are 11 pacers who have done this.

 

2)   3 Fast bowlers .... 

 

Cummins

Bumrah

Harris

 

3)   1 Fast-medium swing bowler

 

Boult

 

4)  3 Fast-medium seam bowlers

 

Hazlewood

Pandya

Marsh

 

4)  3 Medium Paced swing bowlers 

 

Abbas

Philander

Bhuvi

 

... I don't know what kind of bowler Sohail Khan is.

 

5)  Military-medium Praveen Kumar averages 29.5 .... nothing great. !

 

 

Looks like all kinds of foreign pacers are doing well in England in the recent past.  Medium pacers have not dominated. 

 

Apart from Abbas, no true Military-medium pacer in the list above.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by express bowling

[abc]

On 5/25/2021 at 2:11 PM, express bowling said:

Apart from Abbas, no true Military-medium pacer in the list above.

 

 

 

 

 

Philander??

[express bowling]

12 hours ago, abc said:

Philander??

 

 

Quicker balls around 135 k to 137 k.

 

That is medium pace and not military medium.

[msb1991]

10 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Quicker balls around 135 k to 137 k.

 

That is medium pace and not military medium.

Bhuvi was mainly 120-130kph when he took 6 against England which I think is borderline. But I don't want to get stuck on semantics here. I broadly agree with your points but perhaps I'm slightly less firm in my view than you. 

 

I think you can be successful against top-quality batsmen in England at low speed (120-130kph). But you need to be very special to do that. Height helps, or swing and either way, you need to have very high accuracy. In terms of skills, there is no comparison between someone like Bhuvi and people like Vinay Kumar, for example. Similarly, someone like Chahar just doesn't have that track record of consistently taking FC wickets. To break into a Test team at under 130kph - you need to have a greater onus of proof whereby you've shown ability to perform in multiple countries / conditions and against higher quality opposition (e.g., A Teams). Tbh, this onus of proof is rarely met but there is nothing to say that it cannot be met. Mohammad Asif, for example, was still highly effective toward the end of his career where he was more 125kph than 135kph - but that sort of seam movement is a generational-level talent and so very rare. 

 

Darren Stevens got out Marnus Labuschagne in a recent county fixture LBW. He rarely crosses 75mph and had just smashed 190. So I don't think one can say that a medium-pacer needs a greentop to dismiss a top batsman (not that you've said that). But sometimes on very flat pitches, that bowling can be real fodder and so it helps he's one of the country's best batsmen also and keeps an exceptional economy rate when not taking wickets. The risk with military medium isn't that they can't get out top batsmen - they most certainly can, nor is it that they are totally useless on non-green-tops. The risk is rather that they can be heavily marginalised on very unhelpful tracks, leaving you effectively a bowler short. As we see in Test matches, having a bowler short out of something like injury (or terrible form) can absolutely ruin a team's chances. 

 

But tbh, I think England should pick him for at least one Test against India. I think India's batsmen would struggle against him. 

[sage]

maybe we shouldve rang up RP Singh in Miami