Have pujara, kohli, rahane REALLY replaced dravid, sachin and vvs

[Stan AF]

^^^^ You want them to play 50 more tests??

[sage]

3 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

The fact that Sachin averaged in 50's even in the 90's shows the talent & skill level of the man.  Except maybe Waugh I don't remember anyone averaging 50 during that period.  I don't belong to that generation or neither I have seen Sachin bat in his prime...  Whatever I have seen with Kohli never really impressed me.  Rahane when he came to the scene did look like he had the flair in his batting but what a waste he turned out to be. 

Count Duckula remains the most overrated batsman India ever produced. 

saying just averaged 50 is putting it lightly, man was a maestro

 

[Lone Wolf]

49 minutes ago, sage said:

saying just averaged 50 is putting it lightly, man was a maestro

 

Damn Lara Sachin Waugh in a league of their own..  SRT obv Decade of dominance by the trio

[Stan AF]

2 hours ago, sage said:

saying just averaged 50 is putting it lightly, man was a maestro

 

Thalaivar actually played very less # of tests in his prime. Useless BCCI. He should have played atleast 80 tests in this time period.

 

Steve Waugh was a batsman reborn for his 2nd half of his career. The 200 against West Indies totally brought out a beast in him.

Lara was the true prince of batting. On song, there's no better batsman to watch in full flow. The aussies -west indies duels in the 90s and 2003/04 series were good fun.

[zen]

Dravid and Tendulkar have lost India tons of games overseas. In long careers, they would have some success here and there esp. against a relatively weak Eng and an over the hill WI.
 

The batsman who made the biggest impact was Sehwag, his innovative opening style put the opposition on the back foot many times esp. in subcon. Even in SENA,  At Melbourne for example, he scored a 195 but the rest did not quite measure up.
 

Fans saw massive failures against any attack of high quality -> SA 1996, Pak 1998/9, Aus 1999,  NZ 2002, SL against Murali, from the top of the mind recall. India even failed in Zim. 
 

They would do well in Aus in 2003/4 with McGrath-Warne missing. Playing tons of games, 100-200 tests, including lining up to play against teams like BD and playing generally in a high scoring period for cricket later on, allowed them to make up their averages. 

In SA this time, a KL and a Pant scored 100s too, much like how some of the previous generation would play one knock per series on many occasions. 
 

Edited January 15, 2022 by zen

[rkt.india]

5 hours ago, New guy said:

You know that was because of bowling and not batting. With this bowling they would have won those series

 

Once again just being contradictory for the sake of it 

Same way we don't know how would they have performed in the current era with the bat where barely 3-4 batsmen average 50 in works cricket.

[SK_IH]

7 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Watching Kohli bat in this Cape town test.. . His technical flaws & lack of strokes were exposed like never before.  Ngidi Jansen kept giving him room for a decent square cut & flash plenty of times.  Likes of Sachin & Sehwag would have scored plenty of runs square of the wicket.  There was zero threat of LBW's.  Cover drives were risky option.  Even Peterson scored majority of his runs on backfoot. 

Manju has thoroughly exposed this fraud on cricinfo...  And said if he had backfoot game he would have scored 130 odd easily on this track..  While he showed great patience..  But even he knew he eventually had to score but didn't had strokes to counter the lengths they were bowling..  And then the big booming loose cover drive came. 

Yep, this wannabe ATG is dependent on those good looking cover drives. He is a very elegant batsman but he has glaring loopholes/weaknesses to be considered in the elite league. Add to all that, he always goes missing when the going gets tough. So there is absolutely nothing going for him 

[zen]

3 hours ago, sage said:

saying just averaged 50 is putting it lightly, man was a maestro

 

 

Many of those non-Indian batsmen played "relatively" more against quality teams for e.g. Aus and WI would tussle for supremacy. Below is how India played its tests in 90s:

Primary team India

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 1999

Totals in terms of batting team

Ordered by matches won (descending)

 

By host country

Team	Span	Mat		Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
India	1990-1999	30	17	5	0	8	3.400	39.12	3.08	48	633	83
in India
India	1993-1999	6	1	0	0	5	-	54.03	3.08	8	537	366
in Sri Lanka
India	1991-1999	7	0	6	0	1	0.000	24.44	2.75	13	483	110
in Australia
India	1990-1996	6	0	2	0	4	0.000	38.86	3.30	10	606	211
in England
India	1990-1999	6	0	2	0	4	0.000	37.36	3.24	11	482	164
in New Zealand
India	1992-1997	7	0	3	0	4	0.000	24.52	2.42	13	410	66
in South Africa
India	1997-1997	5	0	1	0	4	0.000	34.22	2.43	7	436	81
in West Indies
India	1992-1998	2	0	1	0	1	0.000	25.33	2.27	3	307	173
in Zimbabwe

 

 

Against high quality attacks overseas, Indian batsmen would usually struggle (apart from an inning here and there like how KL and Pant scored a 100 in SA this time) 

Edited January 15, 2022 by zen

[Vijy]

33 minutes ago, zen said:

Dravid and Tendulkar have lost India tons of games overseas. In long careers, they would have some success here and there esp. against a relatively weak Eng and an over the hill WI.
 

The batsman who made the biggest impact was Sehwag, his innovative opening style put the opposition on the back foot many times esp. in subcon. Even in SENA,  At Melbourne for example, he scored a 195 but the rest did not quite measure up.
 

Fans saw massive failures against any attack of high quality -> SA 1996, Pak 1998/9, Aus 1999,  NZ 2002, SL against Murali, from the top of the mind recall. India even failed in Zim. 
 

They would do well in Aus in 2003/4 with McGrath-Warne missing. Playing tons of games, 100-200 tests, including lining up to play against teams like BD and playing generally in a high scoring period for cricket later on, allowed them to make up their averages. 

In SA this time, a KL and a Pant scored 100s too, much like how some of the previous generation would play one knock per series on many occasions. 
 

NZ 2002 - the attack was okay, but it was the pitches that were at fault. they were even worse than some rank turners (e.g., nagpur '04). hard to see any batter on either side doing well.

Pak 1998/99 - this is true. however, if the tail had stuck around, SRT's 100 in chennai would be a match-winning knock

SA '96 - also correct. overall a failure, but the SRT-Azhar partnership was scintillating. SA '10 also had a very strong attack and SRT was in prime form.

SL against Murali-Mendis - only Sehwag and Gambhir did well

 

On balance, while some of the players who debuted in late 90s may have stat-padded, this is not true for those players like Waugh, SRT, and Lara, who did well throughout the 90s against some excellent attacks and/or difficult pitches. Obviously all of them have failures if one wants to cherry-pick stats. Only person whose stats would stand up to scrutiny would be Bradman because he was pretty good even in his weakest series (Bodyline)

[zen]

17 minutes ago, Vijy said:

NZ 2002 - the attack was okay, but it was the pitches that were at fault. they were even worse than some rank turners (e.g., nagpur '04). hard to see any batter on either side doing well.

Pak 1998/99 - this is true. however, if the tail had stuck around, SRT's 100 in chennai would be a match-winning knock

SA '96 - also correct. overall a failure, but the SRT-Azhar partnership was scintillating. SA '10 also had a very strong attack and SRT was in prime form.

SL against Murali-Mendis - only Sehwag and Gambhir did well

 

On balance, while some of the players who debuted in late 90s may have stat-padded, this is not true for those players like Waugh, SRT, and Lara, who did well throughout the 90s against some excellent attacks and/or difficult pitches. Obviously all of them have failures if one wants to cherry-pick stats. Only person whose stats would stand up to scrutiny would be Bradman because he was pretty good even in his weakest series (Bodyline)

 

Tendulkar has not done too well against high quality attacks apart from an inning here and there in a series ... He made up his numbers versus a relatively weak Eng and maybe NZ, a couple of 100s against 92 Aus, and an over the hill post 1995 WI 

 

Lara and Steve Waugh were actually playing a lot against each other in high intensity series. That battle for supremacy between Aus and WI in 90s is probably some of the most intense cricket that I have seen ... Aus-SA series were interesting too 

 

Primary team Australia  or West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 1999

Totals in terms of batting team

Ordered by matches won (descending)

Overall figures

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
Australia	1991-1999	23	9	9	0	5	1.000	29.32	2.87	43	531	105
West Indies	1991-1999	23	9	9	0	5	1.000	28.06	3.03	43	606	51

 

 

 

Tendulkar did not play in too many high intensity series. Even in the once he played in, he hit one good inning here and there. Which is why I take overall career stats (even from a period) with a grain of salt as they fail to account for the quality of opposition, intensity of the series, impactful knocks, and so on 

 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by zen

[Vijy]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Tendulkar has not done too well against high quality attacks apart from an inning here and there in a series ... He made up his numbers versus a relatively weak Eng and maybe NZ, a couple of 100s against 92 Aus, and an over the hill post 1995 WI 

 

Lara and Steve Waugh were actually playing a lot against each other in high intensity series. That battle for supremacy between Aus and WI in 90s is probably some of the most intense cricket that I have seen ... Aus-SA series were interesting too 

 

Primary team Australia  or West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 1999

Totals in terms of batting team

Ordered by matches won (descending)

Overall figures

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
Australia	1991-1999	23	9	9	0	5	1.000	29.32	2.87	43	531	105
West Indies	1991-1999	23	9	9	0	5	1.000	28.06	3.03	43	606	51

 

 

 

Tendulkar did not play in too many high intensity series. Even in the once he played in, he hit one good inning here and there. Which is why I take overall career stats (even from a period) with a grain of salt as they fail to account for the quality of opposition, intensity of the series, impactful knocks, and so on 

 

 

how is that his fault? it's true that he did not, but india was not seen as a major enough test nation in the 90s. I actually feel that he missed out on cashing on some of his best years. he had his failures to be sure, but so did most others (e.g., waugh and lara on turning pitches in india). as I wrote before, there is no batter who has scored against strong opposition consistently barring bradman and smith to a lesser extent.

 Gavaskar's batting also declined once the WI pace quartet was assembled. most of his runs came against weaker WI squads in the 70s.

 

Anyway, I have noticed that we have very different viewpoints on this particular front, which is fine. It is highly unlikely that we will change each others viewpoints.

[zen]

Just now, Vijy said:

how is that his fault? it's true that he did not, but india was not seen as a major enough test nation in the 90s. I actually feel that he missed out on cashing on some of his best years. he had his failures to be sure, but so did most others (e.g., waugh and lara on turning pitches in india). as I wrote before, there is no batter who has scored against strong opposition consistently barring bradman and smith to a lesser extent.

 Gavaskar's batting also declined once the WI pace quartet was assembled. most of his runs came against weaker WI squads in the 70s.

 

Anyway, I have noticed that we have very different viewpoints on this particular front, which is fine. It is highly unlikely that we will change each others viewpoints.

 

Tendulkar even in the opportunities he got, he failed to make it count big time in a series (apart from scoring a 100 here and there like how Pant did in the last test) 

 

If someone is going to ask me, who were the two best batsmen of 90s - I would be inclined to say Lara and S Waugh for playing so much high intensity cricket and performing in it. S Waugh even won Aus a series in Pak in 98 for e.g. 

 

This is not just based on stats but also through following almost every game in the 90s 

 

 

 

 

[CG]

16 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Tendulkar has not done too well against high quality attacks apart from an inning here and there in a series ... He made up his numbers versus a relatively weak Eng and maybe NZ, a couple of 100s against 92 Aus, and an over the hill post 1995 WI 

 

Lara and Steve Waugh were actually playing a lot against each other in high intensity series. That battle for supremacy between Aus and WI in 90s is probably some of the most intense cricket that I have seen ... Aus-SA series were interesting too 

 

Primary team Australia  or West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 1999

Totals in terms of batting team

Ordered by matches won (descending)

Overall figures

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
Australia	1991-1999	23	9	9	0	5	1.000	29.32	2.87	43	531	105
West Indies	1991-1999	23	9	9	0	5	1.000	28.06	3.03	43	606	51

 

 

 

Tendulkar did not play in too many high intensity series. Even in the once he played in, he hit one good inning here and there. Which is why I take overall career stats (even from a period) with a grain of salt as they fail to account for the quality of opposition, intensity of the series, impactful knocks, and so on 

 

 

Cricket is team sport.The Indian pace bowling attack was only srinath in 90s we could not have any high intensity series.I Remember Sachin Being Best Batsman In 1999 Series in Aus And Even when we toured WI in 90s.England Conditions were diff and suited there type of medium pacers like mulaly,Gough,caddick.

[zen]

2 minutes ago, CG said:

Cricket is team sport.The Indian pace bowling attack was only srinath in 90s we could not have any high intensity series.I Remember Sachin Being Best Batsman In 1999 Series in Aus And Even when we toured WI in 90s.England Conditions were diff and suited there type of medium pacers like mulaly,Gough,caddick.

 

For India, he was

 

[Vijy]

12 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Tendulkar even in the opportunities he got, he failed to make it count big time in a series (apart from scoring a 100 here and there like how Pant did in the last test) 

 

If someone is going to ask me, who were the two best batsmen of 90s - I would be inclined to say Lara and S Waugh for playing so much high intensity cricket and performing in it. S Waugh even won Aus a series in Pak in 98 for e.g. 

 

This is not just based on stats but also through following almost every game in the 90s 

 

 

 

 

Same here. That's why I said it is unlikely we would convince each other because these experiences are subjective. I would put Waugh in one of the two best batters in 90s though. Lara played 17 out of his 65 tests in 90s against a weak Eng (and had an avg of about 80), which I do not regard personally as high-intensity series.

[zen]

19 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Same here. That's why I said it is unlikely we would convince each other because these experiences are subjective. I would put Waugh in one of the two best batters in 90s though. Lara played 17 out of his 65 tests in 90s against a weak Eng (and had an avg of about 80), which I do not regard personally as high-intensity series.

 

WI was a top side of 90s so it had a reputation to live up to too ... Eng-WI were rated more highly than Eng-Ind. Someone like Tendulkar's best performances in 90s were against Eng and SL (played almost 1/3rd of his games in 90s versus them; almost 50% of games versus Eng-SL-NZ), so if we are not considering WI-Eng as high intensity, nothing much needs to be said about Ind-Eng 

Edited January 15, 2022 by zen