How many current players would make it to our All-time Indian Test XI?

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, ShoonyaSifar said:

No more derailing the thread as neither Jadeja nor Irfan are good enough to be in the all time 11. 

 

Good. Agree with that Main point was Jadeja vs Kapil dev.

[Lord]

5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I have corrected it. Yes fact that he was sent up the order with such elite batting line up should tell you how they rated him. He has opened in India made 93. Jadeja is at best a no.7 batsman. Not going to be doing any good up the order. Can he survive new ball opening? No way.  Mishra got 81 as well. Agarkar has 100. But they are lower order batsman. They are not going to trust them to open an innings or come at no.3, With 3 triple centuries in domestic he is more a proper batsman than Sundar who did not even play any first class for 4 years when he made Test debut.  He as a bowler definitely excelled.

yes Mishra,Agarkar etc had one odd innings. Jadeja has played more.

 

Opening in India is totally different.the reason why even Sehwag struggled in Eng/NZ.

 

Jadeja has played 2nd new ball many times.There is no proof he cant play new ball in India. You are just making assumptions.

[R!TTER]

1 hour ago, Vk1 said:

Jadeja cannot pick wickets in overseas and if he does.. it will be tailenders or when the batsmen throw their bats

Right, like Ashwin?

 

1 hour ago, Vk1 said:

I would pick Ashwin over Jadeja anytime when you have Kapil Dev in the  team

You would, but not everyone I'm sure of that.

[express bowling]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

 

you seen Gavaskar but not Kapil?

 

 

I have seen Kapil play but did not pick him.

[express bowling]

4 hours ago, Vijy said:

I agree that one should have 2 ARs. It's just that I think Kapil+Jaddu is better than Ashwin+Jaddu. Ashwin has done better lately, but not over his entire career. One of the stipulations in the all-time XI is that people should be selected based on performance over entire career.

 

 

 

And this is one of the biggest reasons I have not chosen Kapil as a pure bowler. He was really good as a bowler from 1979 to 1983. But after that he had knee issues and became more of a support bowler who was economical but not really striking that well except a series here snd there. I think from 1984 to 1994, Kapil was really awesome as a test bowler only in the 1985 and 1991-92 series in Australia and the 1989 tour of the WI.

 

Strangely enough, despite being a pure swing bowler, Kapil was below par in both England and NZ. While he did well in Australia and the WI as well as in India.

 

As a batsman, Kapil wasn't that consistent. He was very hit or miss. Simply brilliant about 20% of the time, ok about 10% of the time and below average about 70% of the time. He used to throw away his wicket on crucial juncture often enough. 

 

He was more of a No.8 for that reason and started batting at 8 later on. 

 

Since you said that no " / " is allowed, I had to leave him out based on my liking for consistent performers.

 

In tests outside Asia, my team would be  ( choosing only players that I have watched play )

 

1. Gavaskar

2. Sehwag

3. Dravid

4. Tendulkar

5. Kohli

6. Pant

7. Jadeja

8. Kapil

9. Srinath

10. Shami

11. Bumrah 

 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by express bowling

[vvvslaxman]

3 hours ago, Vk1 said:

Jadeja cannot pick wickets in overseas and if he does.. it will be tailenders or when the batsmen throw their bats.. I would pick Ashwin over Jadeja anytime when you have Kapil Dev in the  team

It is a no brainer

 

[Vk1]

3 hours ago, R!TTER said:

Right, like Ashwin?

 

You would, but not everyone I'm sure of that.

even Ashwin does that but Ashwin also picks crucial top order wickets.. frankly I don't remember any crucial contribution from Jadeja with the ball in overseas except for Sydney 2021

[Jay]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

It is a no brainer

 

Jadeja was really good vs Aussies last time. 

[vvvslaxman]

17 minutes ago, Jay said:

Jadeja was really good vs Aussies last time. 

 

Yes. He has done well. Not denied. Would like to see how he does as a bowler without Ashwin in the side,  like a lead spinner. Since 2011. Max Wickets in a single match.  9 plus wickets in a match list. When you are talking about ATG you need to have outstanding series, Break through performances. Since he is "better at home" shouldn't he have more such performances?

 

 

 

It is not that easy to win that many man of the series regardless where you play who you play against as the history shows.  

 

 

 

6th fastest to reach 100 wickets  2nd since 1935

3rd fastest to reach 200 wickets

Fastest to reach 300 wickets

2nd fastest to reach 400 wickets

 

So yea. His record speaks for himself. This arbitrary filter is not going to diminish his calibre. Not like others set the stage on fire in those parts. 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by vvvslaxman

[mancalledsting]

Bumrah 

Kohli 

Pant 

 

debatable: Shami 

 

Gavaskar 

Sehwag 

Dravid 

Sachin 

Kohli (c) 

Laxman

Pant (wk)

Kapil 

Zaheer 

Kumble 

Bumrah

 

[Majestic]

Both Jadeja and Ashwin are overrated cricketer.

 

Jadeja is a good support bowler and a darter, that's it. What were his batting and bowling stats in England when he had to fill the role as a sole spinner? 

 

With bat, his stats are inflated mostly by runs at home.

 

In SENA conditions, they both have been jokers of highest quality. Ashwin bats like tailender and Jadeja bowls like part timer.

 

To conclude, in SENA, Jadeja is a Moeen Ali level bits and pieces cricketer while Ashwin is hopeless in ever thing he does in SENA. All he has done his entire career in SENA is cash on the weakest Aussie batting lineup of all-time in 2018 series.

 

Give me Kumble in SENA, he has done much better than both of them there with about 4-5 fifers to his name and that too at a better bowling average even without any support.

 

Ashwin and Jadeja average close to 40 in SENA even with support.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Majestic

[First class]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Yes. He has done well. Not denied. Would like to see how he does as a bowler without Ashwin in the side,  like a lead spinner. Since 2011. Max Wickets in a single match.  9 plus wickets in a match list. When you are talking about ATG you need to have outstanding series, Break through performances. Since he is "better at home" shouldn't he have more such performances?

 

 

 

It is not that easy to win that many man of the series regardless where you play who you play against as the history shows.  

 

 

 

6th fastest to reach 100 wickets  2nd since 1935

3rd fastest to reach 200 wickets

Fastest to reach 300 wickets

2nd fastest to reach 400 wickets

 

So yea. His record speaks for himself. This arbitrary filter is not going to diminish his calibre. Not like others set the stage on fire in those parts. 

 

Ashiwin has been a great spinner in home condition but overall a very ordinary one in SENA .

 

Chandrasekhar has been India's best spinner overseas. 

Chandra was definitely the biggest match-winner for India abroad for a long period of time. He snaffled 42 wickets in the 5 overseas winning Tests that he was a part of. Considered as a progeny, 

 Viv Richards told in an interview that Chandrasekhar and Dennis Lillee were the most difficult bowlers he had faced. 

It is not to be mentioned that Chandra has played big roles in Indian Test victories. His 6/38 got India their first Test win in England. He followed it up with 8 wickets against New Zealand to seal an India win. Each and every win had Chandra's footprint. India chased down 406 against West Indies in PoS and Chandra had a match haul of 8 wickets. It was then the turn of Australia to taste his magic as Chandra ended with figures of 12/104 to help India win the Melbourne Test. Chandra ended his Test career with 242 wickets in 58 Test matches.

[vvvslaxman]

10 minutes ago, First class said:

Ashiwin has been a great spinner in home condition but overall a very ordinary one in SENA .

 

Chandrasekhar has been India's best spinner overseas. 

Chandra was definitely the biggest match-winner for India abroad for a long period of time. He snaffled 42 wickets in the 5 overseas winning Tests that he was a part of. Considered as a progeny, 

 Viv Richards told in an interview that Chandrasekhar and Dennis Lillee were the most difficult bowlers he had faced. 

It is not to be mentioned that Chandra has played big roles in Indian Test victories. His 6/38 got India their first Test win in England. He followed it up with 8 wickets against New Zealand to seal an India win. Each and every win had Chandra's footprint. India chased down 406 against West Indies in PoS and Chandra had a match haul of 8 wickets. It was then the turn of Australia to taste his magic as Chandra ended with figures of 12/104 to help India win the Melbourne Test. Chandra ended his Test career with 242 wickets in 58 Test matches.

 

 

WHat very ordinary lol INdia has been using spinners for holding job. IN Chandra's das there were no seamers. It was all up to spinners to take wickets one way or the other. ROles are different. Genuine wrist spinners have an edge in any conditions more than finger spinners. But Ashwin can turn the ball both ways with legal action. In the last 5 years he has better average than Shami in 3 SENA countries. INdian spinners hardly play any role overseas other than holding job. 

[vvvslaxman]

38 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Both Jadeja and Ashwin are overrated cricketer.

 

Jadeja is a good support bowler and a darter, that's it. What were his batting and bowling stats in England when he had to fill the role as a sole spinner? 

 

With bat, his stats are inflated mostly by runs at home.

 

In SENA conditions, they both have been jokers of highest quality. Ashwin bats like tailender and Jadeja bowls like part timer.

 

To conclude, in SENA, Jadeja is a Moeen Ali level bits and pieces cricketer while Ashwin is hopeless in ever thing he does in SENA. All he has done his entire career in SENA is cash on the weakest Aussie batting lineup of all-time in 2018 series.

 

Give me Kumble in SENA, he has done much better than both of them there with about 4-5 fifers to his name and that too at a better bowling average even without any support.

 

Ashwin and Jadeja average close to 40 in SENA even with support.

 

Kumble went missing in I ndia itself several matches not to mention in Srilanka/Pakistan. Infact he was targeted in many matches.

[Majestic]

16 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Kumble went missing in I ndia itself several matches not to mention in Srilanka/Pakistan. Infact he was targeted in many matches.

Mahela and Sanga would attack Ashwin and Jadeja also if they tour Sri Lanka on some absolute flat pattas. They have been lucky to tour there when they all were on verge of retiring or their career was over and SL were awful side. 

 

Also Younis Khan would have made a mockery of Ashwin the spinner. So, Ashwin is lucky that India are not playing Pakistan. He would have probably averaged mid-40s against Pakistan too.

 

In Australia, Kumble's achievement vs the greatest Australian side ever in 2003 absolutely demolishes anything Ashwin has done in SENA, including the wickets he got vs the weakest Australian side ever in 2018.

 

Kumble also has great performances in South Africa too. Ashwin has got nothing except a beating of lifetime in 458 chase by South Africa some years back. Ashwin is the biggest home bully of all-time.

 

When Ashwin goes to SENA, he does nothing. Can't bat, can't bowl, can't field. Only sit on shade and be spectator without paying the spectator fees!

Edited January 2, 2022 by Majestic

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Mahela and Sanga would attack Ashwin and Jadeja also if they tour Sri Lanka on some absolute flat pattas. They have been lucky to tour there when they all were on verge of retiring or their career was over and SL were awful side. 

 

Also Younis Khan would have made a mockery of Ashwin the spinner. So, Ashwin is lucky that India are not playing Pakistan. He would have probably averaged mid-40s against Pakistan too.

 

In Australia, Kumble's achievement vs the greatest Australian side ever in 2003 absolutely demolishes anything Ashwin has done in SENA, including the wickets he got vs the weakest Australian side ever in 2018.

 

Kumble also has great performances in South Africa too. Ashwin has got nothing except a beating of lifetime in 458 chase by South Africa some years back. Ashwin is the biggest home bully of all-time.

 

Based on your own argument how is Bumrah/Shami better than bowlers from other eras? I can also say Mahela , Younish Khan, Inzama will thash our seamers.

 

This was in zimbabwe. Mind you we clean swept in 2005. Look at Kumble's figures.. We have seen Kumble's bowling through 2000s. Fantastic bowler. But many teams figured out his style and treate him like a seamer instead of a genuine leggie. That is why his average against almost all teams are 30 except Zimbabwe/NZ. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by vvvslaxman

[Majestic]

19 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Based on your own argument how is Bumrah/Shami better than bowlers from other eras? I can also say Mahela , Younish Khan, Inzama will thash our seamers.

 

This was in zimbabwe. Mind you we clean swept in 2005. Look at Kumble's figures.. We have seen Kumble's bowling through 2000s. Fantastic bowler. But many teams figured out his style and treate him like a seamer instead of a genuine leggie. That is why his average against almost all teams are 30 except Zimbabwe/NZ. 

Your example is not enough to prove any point. It is a one off. Any bowler can have a random failure. Ashwin flopped vs Australia in 2017 home series. But that doesn't make him any less home bully. 

 

Kumble has performed and took 20 wickets away from home in Australia vs the greatest Australian side of all-time in 2003. In a pace bowling friendly condition, he carried the Indian attack single handedly. Here is what the batting lineup reads,

 

Hayden( borderline ATG)

Langer

Ponting( ATG)

Martyn

S Waugh( ATG)

Katich

Gilchrist( ATG)

 

In the same match, Stuart Macgill figures read 0-146 while kumble took 8 wickets on the flattest deck in Sydney Test.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-australia-2003-04-62294/australia-vs-india-4th-test-64062/full-scorecard

 

Clearly, that performance inflicted India a massive chance of winning the series in Australia against that batting lineup but because of no support, he had to feel disappointed. Ashwin simply don't have any performance of that caliber. 

 

 Regarding  Younis and Mahela, they were great players of spin. Younis played Murali well too. On flatter UAE wickets, he could have easily gotten the better of Ash-Jadeja just like how he got the better of Kumble -Bhajji pair.

 

Bumrah/Shami is completely different case. You are talking about seamers and those two have great success vs several elite batsman in their backyard and won matches and taken fifers in SENA.

 

Ashwin has 0 fifers in SENA. Kumble has 5, one of them vs the greatest batting lineup of all-time. Even Harbhajan has fifers in New Zealand and South Africa and has won test matches overseas.

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Majestic

[R!TTER]

31 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Based on your own argument how is Bumrah/Shami better than bowlers from other eras? I can also say Mahela , Younish Khan, Inzama will thash our seamers.

 

They will, it's unquestionably true that without DRS & T20 Ashwin's stats would not be what they are today! Back in Kumble's era we had 1 Mumbai in 2004, how many such tracks you remember Ashwin's played on? Then how many flat tracks do you remember Ashwin did well against good teams? Unless you acknowledge pitches, DRS & the fall in test batting as major contributing factors to Ashwin's numbers we won't go anywhere with this useless back & forth. Conversely his batting would yield better results, same goes for Jadeja.

[Jay]

Lol don't tarnish the image of our goat pace attack to boost your favourite spinners stats. Our goat attack (pace) will kill batsmen from all eras. Period. 

 

As for spinners. Don't think Yousuf and Younis would have fared all that well vs ash and jaddu in Asia with drs in play.

 

Kumble dint play in drs era. He may have gotten more wickets too. He also don't have the support of our goat pace attack which is easily a top 5 All time great level bowling attack. 

[vvvslaxman]

15 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Your example is not enough to prove any point. It is a one off. Any bowler can have a random failure. Ashwin flopped vs Australia in 2017 home series. But that doesn't make him any less home bully. 

 

Kumble has performed and took 20 wickets away from home in Australia vs the greatest Australian side of all-time in 2003. In a pace bowling friendly condition, he carried the Indian attack single handedly. Here is what the batting lineup reads,

 

Hayden( borderline ATG)

Langer

Ponting( ATG)

Martyn

S Waugh( ATG)

Katich

Gilchrist( ATG)

 

In the same match, Stuart Macgill figures read 0-146 while kumble took 8 wickets on the flattest deck in Sydney Test.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-australia-2003-04-62294/australia-vs-india-4th-test-64062/full-scorecard

 

Clearly, that performance inflicted India a massive chance of winning the series in Australia against that batting lineup but because of no support, he had to feel disappointed. Ashwin simply don't have any performance of that caliber. 

 

 Regarding  Younis and Mahela, they were great players of spin. Younis played Murali well too. On flatter UAE wickets, he could have easily gotten the better of Ash-Jadeja just like how he got the better of Kumble -Bhajji pair.

 

Bumrah/Shami is completely different case. You are talking about seamers and those two have great success vs several elite batsman in their backyard and won matches and taken fifers in SENA.

 

Ashwin has 0 fifers in SENA. Kumble has 5, one of them vs the greatest batting lineup of all-time. Even Harbhajan has fifers in New Zealand and South Africa and has won test matches overseas.

 

Gee whiz why is his career performance overseas is not exactly SENA bullying as you try to portray. It is a well known fact Leggies have a distinct advantage in bouncier conditions. Even with that

 

Kumble

 

In Austrlaia  37.73@65.3 strike rate

In England   41.41@87.4 strike rate

In NZ           40.27@104.4 strike rate

In SA            32.02@844 Strike rate

In Pakistan   42.41@68.3 strike rate

In SL            44.63@93.0 strike rate

In Windies   31.28@66.0 Strike rate

 

In Bangladesh 16.53@32.4 strike rate

In Zimbabwe  29.14@66.0 strike rate

 

So we have to believe he was overseas "bully" because he had a good match? Even i would pick Kumble if only Chandrasekar is not the other spinner. You don't go with two leggies. Our forum is old enough to see how we reacted when he was not performing well.