India missing the Jadeja link in this series

[zen]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

Please check Thakur's bowling stats in "SENA" before you start dismissing him.  The bias isn't exactly dripping, its flooding.

 

 

 

zen master usually comments at state 1 (ahead of 2 & 3) and 3 (ahead of 4) ... Most of the posts here are like x does well, he is good, x does bad, drop him 

 

why resist when eventually you would agree?

[sensible-indian]

To be honest, this series is more suited for Jaddu than Ashwin.

 

He would have made more runs and bowled the same amount of overs

 

As for Ashwin, I really dont think he bowled badly at all today.

 

Its just that bowling 3-4 over spells just doesnt work for him and doesnt allow him to get into any sort of rhythm.

 

Today the Saffer commies were going on and on about how he was drying up the runs and controlling the pace which I found hilarious cos I felt the field sets were horrible and too defensive.

 

Hard to imagine that would have been Ashwin's choice considering he is desperate for wickets.

 

Even last game, he looked really good after he got Keegan out.

 

Barely got to bowl after that until the very end.

 

Unless you consider the 2 over spell at the start of the day as a spell.

 

If he doesnt pick up more wickets in the last innings in the limited chance he gets, this may very well be his last SENA game.

 

Such is life.

[sensible-indian]

13 minutes ago, zen said:

 

 

 

zen master usually comments at state 1 (ahead of 2 & 3) and 3 (ahead of 4) ... Most of the posts here are like x does well, he is good, x does bad, drop him 

 

why resist when eventually you would agree?

Arent you the guy who started trashing rohit and he became a Godzilla from 2019?

 

In all formats.

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

To be honest, this series is more suited for Jaddu than Ashwin.

 

He would have made more runs and bowled the same amount of overs

 

As for Ashwin, I really dont think he bowled badly at all today.

 

Its just that bowling 3-4 over spells just doesnt work for him and doesnt allow him to get into any sort of rhythm.

 

Today the Saffer commies were going on and on about how he was drying up the runs and controlling the pace which I found hilarious cos I felt the field sets were horrible and too defensive.

 

Hard to imagine that would have been Ashwin's choice considering he is desperate for wickets.

 

Even last game, he looked really good after he got Keegan out.

 

Barely got to bowl after that until the very end.

 

Unless you consider the 2 over spell at the start of the day as a spell.

 

If he doesnt pick up more wickets in the last innings in the limited chance he gets, this may very well be his last SENA game.

 

Such is life.

 

Spinners need longer spells.  Yes Jaddu probably would not have been a worse choice. But his absence is magnified due to absence of Pant at 6.  Without Pant contributing, Jaddu with tail is as good as Ashwin with tail.. Probably Sundar would have been a good choice.  Even he can't do much if he has no partners.   They can bite the bullet and go with 4 bowlers and Iyer.  Our bowlers and batsmen miss every series due to injuries. It is hard to have a stable line up. In a way these injuries helped us identify players like Thakur, Sundar.  But under Dravid we don't get new blood in place of injured players. 

[zen]

8 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Arent you the guy who started trashing rohit and he became a Godzilla from 2019?

 

In all formats.

Missed the whole SA and NZ tour, the tough first two tests in Aus, and instigated a COVID fear during the 5th test in Eng to play IPL denying India an opportunity to win a rare test series in Eng.

IND failed to book a spot in the SF of ICC T20 with batting failures in the games that counted versus Pak and NZ.

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by zen

[Majestic]

15 hours ago, R!TTER said:

No the bigger issue is his batting - it's tailender level, especially in the last few years!

View overall figures [change view]

Opposition team Australia http://i.imgci.com/espncricinfo/guruRemove.gif or England or New Zealand  or South Africa

Home or away away (home of opposition)  or neutral venue

Start of match date greater than or equal to 31 Jan 2019

Involving any of the players R Ashwin (INDIA)  or RA Jadeja (INDIA)

Qualifications matches played greater than or equal to 5

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
RG Sharma	2021-2021	6	12	1	510	127	46.36	1190	42.85	1	3	0	58	6
KL Rahul	2021-2022	7	13	0	531	129	40.84	1258	42.20	2	2	1	71	3
V Kohli	2020-2022	10	18	0	523	79	29.05	1240	42.17	0	4	1	67	1
RA Jadeja	2020-2021	8	13	2	301	57	27.36	688	43.75	0	2	0	36	3
CA Pujara	2020-2022	13	25	1	655	91	27.29	1983	33.03	0	6	2	86	0
AM Rahane	2020-2022	13	24	1	606	112	26.34	1411	42.94	1	2	3	70	4
GH Vihari	2020-2022	6	11	2	218	55	24.22	636	34.27	0	1	0	33	0
RR Pant	2020-2022	12	21	0	499	97	23.76	879	56.76	0	2	1	57	5
SN Thakur	2021-2022	5	8	0	171	60	21.37	186	91.93	0	2	2	22	7
MA Agarwal	2020-2022	7	13	0	261	60	20.07	547	47.71	0	2	1	39	1
R Ashwin	2020-2022	8	14	1	193	46	14.84	360	53.61	0	0	2	25	0
Mohammed Shami	2020-2022	10	18	4	162	56*	11.57	222	72.97	0	1	4	19	3

 

From 2015 -

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Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or South Africa

Home or away away (home of opposition) or neutral venue

Start of match date greater than or equal to 31 Jan 2015

Involving any of the players R Ashwin (INDIA) or RA Jadeja (INDIA)

Qualifications matches played greater than or equal to 10

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
V Kohli	2018-2022	20	37	0	1449	153	39.16	2942	49.25	3	8	3	170	2
RG Sharma	2018-2021	10	20	2	694	127	38.55	1579	43.95	1	4	0	74	10
CA Pujara	2018-2022	22	42	2	1475	193	36.87	4006	36.81	4	8	5	174	2
RA Jadeja	2018-2021	11	18	3	490	86*	32.66	1013	48.37	0	4	0	58	5
KL Rahul	2018-2022	15	28	0	899	149	32.10	1839	48.88	3	2	2	122	5
RR Pant	2018-2022	18	32	1	945	159*	30.48	1493	63.29	2	2	2	104	15
AM Rahane	2018-2022	21	39	1	999	112	26.28	2361	42.31	1	5	4	107	5
R Ashwin	2018-2022	15	28	3	439	46	17.56	775	56.64	0	0	2	59	1

I don't think Ashwin is seen as an all rounder like Jadeja. So, it is not Ashwin's batting that is a problem here. He got a 46 in one inning and that's enough for a no 8. He is seen as no 8 only away from home and probably a slot higher at home. But it is his bowling where more is expected from him in relative to the expectations we have from Jadeja.

 

But he has clearly disappointed in this series with his bowling. The expectation from him is not to be economical but take wickets and he hasn't done it convincingly in SENA still. 

 

With Jadeja the expectation is slightly different. It is that he will be economical on proper pace friendly  pitches and take wickets on Oval, Sydney type pitches on Day 4 or Day 5. However, alongwith that, he will consistently contribute with bat through his 40s and 50s.

[vvvslaxman]

15 minutes ago, Majestic said:

I don't think Ashwin is seen as an all rounder like Jadeja. So, it is not Ashwin's batting that is a problem here. He got a 46 in one inning and that's enough for a no 8. He is seen as no 8 only away from home and probably a slot higher at home. But it is his bowling where more is expected from him in relative to the expectations we have from Jadeja.

 

But he has clearly disappointed in this series with his bowling. The expectation from him is not to be economical but take wickets and he hasn't done it convincingly in SENA still. 

 

With Jadeja the expectation is slightly different. It is that he will be economical on proper pace friendly  pitches and take wickets on Oval, Sydney type pitches on Day 4 or Day 5. However, alongwith that, he will consistently contribute with bat through his 40s and 50s.

 

When you bowl only 10 or 15% of the total overs with 2 or 3 spells due to the nature of the surfaces you can't do anything.  Maharaja bowled even less overs than Ashwin for SA. Just 26 overs in 6 innings so far. You really think India would use Jadeja for extended spell with 4 seamers in the side? I doubt so. 

[Majestic]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

When you bowl only 10 or 15% of the total overs with 2 or 3 spells due to the nature of the surfaces you can't do anything.  Maharaja bowled even less overs than Ashwin for SA. Just 26 overs in 6 innings so far. You really think India would use Jadeja for extended spell with 4 seamers in the side? I doubt so. 

Where did I said that Jadeja will be used for extended spells? My point is that with the bowl, the expectations are higher from Ashwin and with bat, the expectations are higher from Jadeja.

 

Jadeja would have also taken 3 or 4 wickets only in 5 innings( don't expect him to do anything special) but he would have managed a couple of 40 odd scores and aggregated 150 runs in these five innings. 

 

Also, you can't compare Ashwin to what Maharaj is giving to South Africa. Maharaj won't have made it to the Indian squad let alone a place in XI.

 

The criticism is when Ashwin gives you same result with the bowl as you can get with Jadeja because Jadeja is anyways a better batsman.

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Where did I said that Jadeja will be used for extended spells? My point is that with the bowl, the expectations are higher from Ashwin and with bat, the expectations are higher from Jadeja.

 

Jadeja would have also taken 3 or 4 wickets only in 5 innings( don't expect him to do anything special) but he would have managed a couple of 40 odd scores and aggregated 150 runs in these five innings. 

 

Also, you can't compare Ashwin to what Maharaj is giving to South Africa. Maharaj won't have made it to the Indian squad let alone a place in XI.

 

The criticism is when Ashwin gives you same result with the bowl as you can get with Jadeja because Jadeja is anyways a better batsman.

 Wouldn't you want Sundar instead of Jadeja if batting of Ashwin is the issue?  

[Majestic]

5 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 Wouldn't you want Sundar instead of Jadeja if batting of Ashwin is the issue?  

Naah. I said Sundar over Ashwin if Jadeja is injured. If Jadeja is fit, then obviously Jadeja. 

 

The third suggestion of Sundar over Jadeja is a pointless one because that will not happen as Jadeja is a senior player and he has done pretty fine as all round cricketer in tests to be asked for getting dropped.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Majestic said:

Naah. I said Sundar over Ashwin if Jadeja is injured. If Jadeja is fit, then obviously Jadeja. 

 

The third suggestion of Sundar over Jadeja is a pointless one because that will not happen as Jadeja is a senior player and he has done pretty fine as all round cricketer in tests to be asked for getting dropped.

 

I would back Sundar as he is more a proper batsman.

 

[R!TTER]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

You really think India would use Jadeja for extended spell with 4 seamers in the side? I doubt so. 

So why do you bring up his bowling so often? He clearly scores more than Ashwin, more frequently & in critical situations as well. He takes less wickets but also bowls less overs!

 

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

The third suggestion of Sundar over Jadeja is a pointless one

Jadeja is a proper bowler, despite Ashwin fanboys/girls ever so often unsubstantiated in the air claims he's generally just as good a bowler and much better fielder 

[Jay]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I would back Sundar as he is more a proper batsman.

 

Sundar is a serious serious talent. Kid is immense potential. Moreover Moreover even Keegan Paterson. He can bowl. Best all rounder talent in a long time. Kid is freaking good. Hope injuries don't ruin him.

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, R!TTER said:

So why do you bring up his bowling so often? He clearly scores more than Ashwin, more frequently & in critical situations as well. He takes less wickets but also bowls less overs!

 

Jadeja is a proper bowler, despite Ashwin fanboys/girls ever so often unsubstantiated in the air claims he's generally just as good a bowler and much better fielder 

 

In current form Jaddu is better than Ashwin. No question.  That is a pretty low bar at this point. But critical runs? 2 or 3 important partnerships. Even in one of the partnership he ran the century maker out. Something that was achieved by Thakur more times. Even Sundar couple of times.  Ashwin himself involved in a high pressure partnership with Vihari.  Point here would he have made a difference in the 2nd test. Flat out no. He would be up against a much better attack than he faced in England.  Even there barring a 50 and 40 didn't do much. Sure he can stick around without making runs while watching lower order collapse.  Against NZ got out to Wagner, Boult, Jamieson in recent times. All short balls. Made 9, 16*, 15, 16. Imagine him against Jansen, Rabada at the wanderers. 

[SRT100]

3 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I would back Sundar as he is more a proper batsman.

 

 

Its been so long, I cant even remember how he bats.

 

What kind of fitness and rehab program is being run by the BCCI, where Indians are constantly injured.

[ShoonyaSifar]

Neither Ashwin nor Jadeja, enough opportunities to them in SENA, even at their best both have been below par, barring an exception of two. From the next SENA tour onwards, Sundar has to be the preferred spin option. It's a pity he's been out of the team due to one reason or the other post the home series vs England.

[Majestic]

9 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

I would back Sundar as he is more a proper batsman.

 

I have learnt with time that unless people have performed over a course of 25-30 tests, there is no point in living with any hope. The ones with extreme level of  ability have faltered (KL for example).

[Chakdephatte]

13 hours ago, R!TTER said:

Of course not, just S.E.N.A. away and all except two innings were on challenging surfaces!

India needs a solid middle order to afford him. He will perform better if he comes at 240/5 more often. He is not the one to rescue India from 140/5 type of situations. Or he should be sent higher in some matches, when Pujara is sucking blood out of India's innings, his 30 ball 30 will be more useful.

 

The only thing India is missing are two solid middle order batsmen. Nothing else, especially on this non spinning pitches.

 

 

[Chakdephatte]

12 hours ago, sandeep said:

 

So your critique of Jadeja boils down to - he's not as good as Stokes?  By that token, Virat Kohli is not as good as Steve Smith, should he be thrown out as well? 

 

In low scoring bowler dominated games, Jadeja has repeatedly made vital contributions with the bat.  And we are seeing perfect evidence of the Indian team missing those contributions in the last couple of tests. Yet you are still carrying on about arbitrary comparison with Stokes' batting, and pulled out of the air imaginary statistical benchmarks.  

 

You are the only one comparing. I just said he should be seen as a batting all-rounder so there are more expectations from his batting.

 

But in imaginary world you live, 219 runs in 10 innings is termed good.

 

LOL! at imaginary statistical benchmarks. 35 is believed to be a good average for most no. 6 or below (except wks). It has always been the case.

 

Talking about your lines in bold, his impressive 20s are not enough for long term. Man has just 1 hundred in 50 matches. His innings great contributions was his 86* in London.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Chakdephatte

[AuxiliA]

Jadeja provides best of both worlds. He's a better batsman than Ashwin and a much better test bowler than Sundar (who btw is still a newbie). Being a left hander and the best fielder in the country also goes in his favour.