The Indian Pace Bowling Pool need more Bounce Bowlers ... We suffered in South Africa because we could not use bounce as a weapon against ther top 6 batters

[express bowling]

9 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Even Bhuvi can prolly bounce current Pujara

 

Those 2 vicious snorters by Sen would have dismissed almost any top batter. 

[express bowling]

Bump

 

The tall, hit the deck, bounce bowlers of SA ( who get bounce off length balls too and don't have to pitch too short for bounce )  used this pitch with uneven bounce much much better than us.

 

Bumrah wants to be a swing bowler these days. Not hitting the deck hard with good length balls. Gets bounce only wiith short balls 

 

Siraj and Shardul were always like this. Moreover Shardul is short and lacks pace.

 

Prasidh, our only tall bounce bowler, lacked accuracy and intensity.

 

CONDITIONS  NEED .... 3 or 4 accurate, hit the deck pacers, atleast a couple of them tall. 

 

WE HAVE .... 2 fast swing bowlers, 1 medium paced swing bowler and 1 inaccurate tall, hit the deck pacer.

 

Till the time we rectify this, we will never win consistently in SENA. Even in England and NZ, pitches flatten out in the 2nd innings and atleast 2 accurate hit the pacers are needed. 

 

When we won in Australia in 2018/19 then all our 3 pacers were hitting the deck hard for bounce and seam movement and Ishant was tall. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by express bowling

[express bowling]

We need to create a pool of tall, hit the deck quicks and pick 2 or 3 among them for SENA tests and ODIs.  [  3 in Australia and SA .. 2 in England and NZ  ]

 

We never know who will come good and who will fail and who will get injured, which is why a pool is needed. 

 

Our A-team now has atleast 4 such pacers .... Harshit, Avesh, Akashdeep, Kaverappa. Prasidh played too.  Then there are Mayank Y, Tyagi and Sen.  

[putrevus]

Dale Steyn or Vernon Philander are not hit the deck bowlers. They have done extremely well in SA. 
 

Bowlers need to have ability to get batsmen out , seam or swing it does not matter.

 

No need to have any hit the deck bowlers only.

[express bowling]

58 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Dale Steyn or Vernon Philander are not hit the deck bowlers. They have done extremely well in SA. 
 

No need to have any hit the deck bowlers only.

 

 

1)   I did not say ONLY. We don't have this type at all. There is no one who is tall, hit the deck and accurate.  When Steyn or Philander played, they had tall, hit the deck quicks to complement them. 

 

2)  Anyone who had seen Steyn bowl knows that he had this ability to bash the pitch very hard when the ball stopped swinging. And he did this at 90 mph+.

 

3)  Philander, though medium paced and medium height, was a seam bowler for the first 80% of his career. He hit the deck for seam movement and did not look for Swing except his last 2 years. He himself was talking about this in commentary multiple times. 

 

Too many people don't understand the difference between swing bowlers and seam bowlers. 

[express bowling]

1)    A good pace attack needs a combination of tall bouncy pacers and shorter skiddy pacers. 

 

2)   Matches in SENA need more of the tall, bouncy variety.   Matches in Asia need more of the shorter skiddy variety. (  Applicable for tests and ODIs  ).

 

3)  We have lots and lots of shorter skiddy pacers. 

 

We need to build the other variety too. 

 

It is as simple as that. 

[rollingstoned]

Bounce is what has allowed Australia to prevent an upset today. Without it they were losing this game. 

[BlueBlood]

29 minutes ago, express bowling said:

1)    A good pace attack needs a combination of tall bouncy pacers and shorter skiddy pacers. 

 

2)   Matches in SENA need more of the tall, bouncy variety.   Matches in Asia need more of the shorter skiddy variety. (  Applicable for tests and ODIs  ).

 

3)  We have lots and lots of shorter skiddy pacers. 

 

We need to build the other variety too. 

 

It is as simple as that. 

 

This is all BS. You need a plan against each batsman and make sure you frustrate them enough to make mistakes.

 

Marco Jansen had no business making the runs he did. Nor did Elgar.

 

It shows poor captaincy, preparation and planning against each batsman.

Same with Rabada, it's shocking the batsmen didn't come with a plan against him. He is a known commodity unlike Nandre Burget.

 

It's simple, the team is extremely burnt out and lacking confidence after WC Final loss. Dravid is also probably on his way out so just doesn't have the passion any more.

 

My guess is they are hoping a miracle victory in T20 world cup coming up so all things are forgotten.

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

 

This is all BS. You need a plan against each batsman and make sure you frustrate them enough to make mistakes.

 

Marco Jansen had no business making the runs he did. Nor did Elgar.

 

It shows poor captaincy, preparation and planning against each batsman.

Same with Rabada, it's shocking the batsmen didn't come with a plan against him. He is a known commodity unlike Nandre Burget.

 

It's simple, the team is extremely burnt out and lacking confidence after WC Final loss. Dravid is also probably on his way out so just doesn't have the passion any more.

 

My guess is they are hoping a miracle victory in T20 world cup coming up so all things are forgotten.

 

 

 

Planning is needed and needed big time. 

 

But to execute those plans, one needs proper personnel. This is not a video game. 

 

Elgar and Jansen have issues against ball bouncing into their ribs. That should have been the plan to get them out. But we did not have bowlers who can do this / who want to do this consistently.  

[Mesky99]

3 hours ago, express bowling said:

We need to create a pool of tall, hit the deck quicks and pick 2 or 3 among them for SENA tests and ODIs.  [  3 in Australia and SA .. 2 in England and NZ  ]

 

We never know who will come good and who will fail and who will get injured, which is why a pool is needed. 

 

Our A-team now has atleast 4 such pacers .... Harshit, Avesh, Akashdeep, Kaverappa. Prasidh played too.  Then there are Mayank Y, Tyagi and Sen.  

Neither tyagi or sen are hit the deck bowlers, tyagi is skiddy, wayward but presents good seam positioning, sen gets it to seam but his shoulder at release is always drifting down leg, pace decreases when he bowls back of a length, hangaregekar hits the pitch hard but not tall, yudvir another option

[express bowling]

11 minutes ago, Mesky99 said:

Neither tyagi or sen are hit the deck bowlers, tyagi is skiddy, wayward but presents good seam positioning, sen gets it to seam but his shoulder at release is always drifting down leg, pace decreases when he bowls back of a length, hangaregekar hits the pitch hard but not tall, yudvir another option

 

 

Sen is someone who bowls 3 types of deliveries primarily.

 

Used to go for outswing with the new ball .... attack the stumps with skiddy deliveries with indip when ball is old and can do this as he has a,slightly round arm action .... but can also get the ball to rear up nastily from length or back of a length from time to time with a certain regularity. Can do this because of his pace and height even though he isn't a classic high arm action pacer. 

 

Check put how he dismissed Pujara twice in the penultimate Irani Cup. This is the kind of delivery we need on flat pitches with some bounce or pitches with uneven bounce.

 

Tyagi keeps changing his action and bowling style every year. His original action aided swing more. Then he worked with Steffan Jones and started hitting the deck really hard with a different action. He has gone back to his older action now but still can hit the deck really hard whenever he wants. And his height and pace helps this cause. 

[AKane]

Person most utilizing short ball is the slowest and shortest Thakur.

 

He has literally sacrificed his career at the alter of short bowling. Previously he bowled the channel and got wickets with that. He could swing the ball at decent pace.

 

Now 1 or 2 out of 6 balls each over are short balls. It is like he is obsessed with bouncers - cringe worthy  bouncers. He is not an Andy Roberts (pace wise) or Curtly Ambrose (ht wise). He is scaring no one. An occasional bouncer may surprise them but generally they can rock back and clobber his attempted short balls. 

 

I don't know whose advice he is following but I noticed this change in his bowling since Dravid became coach plus maybe...maybe...his desire to do something in T20 and by extension of course IPL.  He did not bowl like this under Shastri.

Edited December 29, 2023 by AKane

[AKane]

Someone should advise all Indian pace bowlers to stay off of the drug of the short pitched delivery and focus on good pace with movement off the wicket or in the air. Good pace is must. Just work hard on the basics of the game - inswing, outswing, cutters, off pitch movement - not sacrificing pace.

 

The occasional short pitched ball to batsmen standing outside the crease is okay but batsmen these days are so well padded up with chest guard and arm guard and high tech helmets that no one is scared of short pitched bowling especially bowled by lulu lemons like Thakur.

 

Even Aus overdid the short balls vs Pujara at Gabba. Pujara soaked them up on his body and eventually the effort in bowling short took a toll on the Aus bowlers who were spent after the tea break.

Edited December 29, 2023 by AKane

[Suhaan]

5 hours ago, AKane said:

Someone should advise all Indian pace bowlers to stay off of the drug of the short pitched delivery and focus on good pace with movement off the wicket or in the air. Good pace is must. Just work hard on the basics of the game - inswing, outswing, cutters, off pitch movement - not sacrificing pace.

 

The occasional short pitched ball to batsmen standing outside the crease is okay but batsmen these days are so well padded up with chest guard and arm guard and high tech helmets that no one is scared of short pitched bowling especially bowled by lulu lemons like Thakur.

 

Even Aus overdid the short balls vs Pujara at Gabba. Pujara soaked them up on his body and eventually the effort in bowling short took a toll on the Aus bowlers who were spent after the tea break.

Yes basics should be right and stock deliveries should mostly be relentless

Everything else comes as surprise

[Rightarmfast]

23 hours ago, putrevus said:

Dale Steyn or Vernon Philander are not hit the deck bowlers. They have done extremely well in SA. 
 

Bowlers need to have ability to get batsmen out , seam or swing it does not matter.

 

No need to have any hit the deck bowlers only.

You need a combination. The ability to get batsmen out happens either because a bowler has either :

Excess speed

Excess swing or seam movement at will

Unnerving bounce

Uncomfortable angle (Could be bowling left hand, or creating bounce from difficult angles)

By default, the bowler needs to maintain good lengths, and generally good line.

 

One bowler cant have it all. You need to try finding a combination of such bowlers. 

 

[Rightarmfast]

7 hours ago, AKane said:

Someone should advise all Indian pace bowlers to stay off of the drug of the short pitched delivery and focus on good pace with movement off the wicket or in the air. Good pace is must. Just work hard on the basics of the game - inswing, outswing, cutters, off pitch movement - not sacrificing pace.

 

The occasional short pitched ball to batsmen standing outside the crease is okay but batsmen these days are so well padded up with chest guard and arm guard and high tech helmets that no one is scared of short pitched bowling especially bowled by lulu lemons like Thakur.

 

Even Aus overdid the short balls vs Pujara at Gabba. Pujara soaked them up on his body and eventually the effort in bowling short took a toll on the Aus bowlers who were spent after the tea break.

Bouncers are effective, however if bowled at difficult lengths they become deadly. I think the Indian bowlers tend to bowl too short. An uneven bounce or excess bounce from full length delivery can be more lethal. But that can only happen if you are tall and have natural bounce as a bowler.

[Adamant]

Lelo bhai bounce bowler Prasidh

[Adamant]

As I have always said, bowlers should be picked in SENA on horses for courses basis. 

 

Bhuvi has done more in two test than the likes of Siraj, Prasidh will do. 

 

Absence of someone like Ishant Sharma is the only reason why our bowling lineup has gotten weaker. 

 

Ishant was not a bounce based bowler, he used to obtain swing, a lot of it while acting as a stock bowler bowling in the right areas. 

 

We are missing a bowler who can keep it tight and not a bounce or express bowler, we don't require them. 

 

Just get a good bowler who knows how to keep it tight. 

 

 

[Adamant]

 

 

Also, as we are in the generation of least talented indian youngsters, I think the only bowler who comes close to having good control on lime and length is........ Mukesh Kumar. 

 

Yes, you speed worshippers wont like it, but that's what it is

 

Strictly speaking of South African, English and Nz conditions. 

 

Mukesh is our best bet

[Adamant]

On 12/29/2023 at 10:09 AM, express bowling said:

Bump

 

The tall, hit the deck, bounce bowlers of SA ( who get bounce off length balls too and don't have to pitch too short for bounce )  used this pitch with uneven bounce much much better than us.

 

Bumrah wants to be a swing bowler these days. Not hitting the deck hard with good length balls. Gets bounce only wiith short balls 

 

Siraj and Shardul were always like this. Moreover Shardul is short and lacks pace.

 

Prasidh, our only tall bounce bowler, lacked accuracy and intensity.

 

CONDITIONS  NEED .... 3 or 4 accurate, hit the deck pacers, atleast a couple of them tall. 

 

WE HAVE .... 2 fast swing bowlers, 1 medium paced swing bowler and 1 inaccurate tall, hit the deck pacer.

 

Till the time we rectify this, we will never win consistently in SENA. Even in England and NZ, pitches flatten out in the 2nd innings and atleast 2 accurate hit the pacers are needed. 

 

When we won in Australia in 2018/19 then all our 3 pacers were hitting the deck hard for bounce and seam movement and Ishant was tall. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's no need of any more bounce based bowler, we were doing fine with Ishant, Bunrah and Bhuvi in 2018

We require a bowler with control over line and length. 

 

Prasidh, who according to you is a perfect bounce based bowler failed bcoz he doesn't have the right control. 

 

Bhuvi would have tore them a new one here, pls analyse things properly instead of always going for pace and bounce