Ankit_sharma03 Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 9 hours ago, vvvslaxman said: KL Rahul at no level has indicated desire to bat down the order. He is the test opener. Opener for his IPL side. It will be a toss up between him and Dhawan. India cannot afford to have 3 oldies forever. Purely based on batting form none of the three should be playing. But Rohit being the captain has to play. hopefully no one listen to him at open he has been KL rahane but in middle he has been KL devillers rollingstoned, Majestic and Stan AF 3
Vijy Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, zen said: Middle order is a wide term to use as it is divided into 2 parts: Upper middle order (#4-5) Lower middle order (#6-7) To make a consistent impact, match winner (or potential match winners being groomed) should be batting in the upper middle order. In lower middle order, the opportunities are relatively less. Upper middle order Primary team India Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies Batting position between 4 and 5 Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 250 and matches played greater than or equal to 20 Ordered by batting average (descending) Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 V Kohli 2009-2020 42 40 6 1748 139* 51.41 1946 89.82 6 9 0 MS Dhoni 2005-2019 110 99 22 3943 134 51.20 4456 88.48 3 29 2 AT Rayudu 2014-2019 25 23 4 766 100 40.31 926 82.72 1 5 2 SS Iyer 2018-2022 23 21 1 785 103 39.25 826 95.03 1 7 0 R Dravid 1996-2007 148 140 18 4689 109* 38.43 6577 71.29 3 40 7 RR Pant 2018-2022 22 20 1 729 125* 38.36 651 111.98 1 5 3 RG Sharma 2007-2012 50 48 9 1450 101* 37.17 1813 79.97 1 11 5 Yuvraj Singh 2000-2017 182 173 20 5625 150 36.76 6411 87.73 11 31 14 AM Rahane 2013-2018 21 20 1 690 89 36.31 810 85.18 0 5 0 A Jadeja 1995-2000 73 67 15 1854 105* 35.65 2542 72.93 3 8 4 DB Vengsarkar 1978-1990 77 74 12 2183 95* 35.20 3177 68.71 0 16 5 M Azharuddin 1985-2000 214 207 30 6216 111* 35.11 8375 74.22 3 42 4 KD Karthik 2006-2019 27 26 9 589 64* 34.64 848 69.45 0 4 2 SV Manjrekar 1988-1996 20 19 3 540 62 33.75 829 65.13 0 3 1 SK Raina 2006-2018 97 86 11 2526 100 33.68 2738 92.25 1 19 5 SR Tendulkar 1989-2007 92 88 14 2476 113 33.45 3231 76.63 3 18 8 M Kaif 2002-2006 32 31 5 764 95* 29.38 1201 63.61 0 6 5 Yashpal Sharma 1980-1985 20 20 2 525 89 29.16 842 62.35 0 3 0 SC Ganguly 1996-2007 26 24 1 581 85 25.26 823 70.59 0 3 1 VG Kambli 1992-2000 51 48 12 864 65 24.00 1249 69.17 0 4 2 SM Patil 1980-1986 33 31 1 688 84 22.93 801 85.89 0 6 3 GR Viswanath 1974-1982 23 23 1 439 75 19.95 830 52.89 0 2 1 N Kapil Dev 1981-1992 43 43 6 723 72 19.54 677 106.79 0 3 2 100s scored in upper middle order = 37 in 1371 innings Lower middle order Primary team India Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies Batting position between 6 and 7 Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 250 and matches played greater than or equal to 20 Ordered by batting average (descending) Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 M Azharuddin 1985-1999 25 20 10 597 108* 59.70 639 93.42 1 1 0 MS Dhoni 2005-2019 179 149 49 4637 139* 46.37 5527 83.89 2 33 4 KM Jadhav 2014-2020 46 34 14 859 120 42.95 777 110.55 1 2 1 HH Pandya 2016-2022 45 29 4 938 92* 37.52 834 112.47 0 7 3 A Jadeja 1992-2000 55 48 10 1303 119 34.28 1732 75.23 1 6 2 YK Pathan 2008-2012 40 28 9 627 123* 33.00 532 117.85 2 3 3 SK Raina 2005-2018 78 68 14 1740 106 32.22 1903 91.43 1 8 7 Yuvraj Singh 2000-2011 61 51 8 1363 98* 31.69 1725 79.01 0 10 2 RA Jadeja 2009-2022 115 84 30 1652 87 30.59 1950 84.71 0 8 6 RJ Shastri 1982-1992 66 55 11 1279 73* 29.06 1662 76.95 0 7 2 RG Sharma 2007-2012 20 18 7 266 58 24.18 347 76.65 0 1 1 RR Singh 1989-2001 86 76 16 1436 75 23.93 1987 72.26 0 6 3 N Kapil Dev 1978-1994 162 142 29 2700 87 23.89 2977 90.69 0 10 11 M Kaif 2002-2006 60 49 10 914 87* 23.43 1219 74.97 0 5 3 IK Pathan 2004-2012 30 24 6 384 47* 21.33 554 69.31 0 0 2 NR Mongia 1994-2000 68 49 17 664 69 20.75 941 70.56 0 1 0 PK Amre 1991-1994 29 23 3 384 55 19.20 609 63.05 0 1 1 AK Sharma 1988-1993 20 18 3 279 52* 18.60 309 90.29 0 2 2 100s scored in lower middle order = 8 in 965 innings azhar had a notable short-ball weakness, but he was a very effective lower MO bat. I used to feel he batted too high in ODIs given his strength vs spin bowling. his ideal position might have been no. 6
vvvslaxman Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, tweaker said: Surya,Pandya Pant are good middle order, late middle order should be made strong and option should be tried in bilateral series At this point form is the only guide we should go with. Hooda was criticized by many not long ago. Now he is appreciated. Not long before he gets a few low scores and gets thrown under the bus. In order to gain confidence of fans they have to do it over a period of time. Not one good innings and 5 flops.
vvvslaxman Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Vijy said: azhar had a notable short-ball weakness, but he was a very effective lower MO bat. I used to feel he batted too high in ODIs given his strength vs spin bowling. his ideal position might have been no. 6 Raina did have right through his career. Managed it until he lost reflexes. If he Iyer works on it he will be a great asset due to his temperament.
Majestic Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Ankit_sharma03 said: hopefully no one listen to him at open he has been KL rahane but in middle he has been KL devillers Problem is there is no certainty of him wanting to play in middle order. The most likely thing that seems to be happening when KLR is back is that he opens and Dhawan gets dropped( if by any chance he gets dropped that's number one thing). Iyer is a fine backup option in ODI, he can take on spinners and rotate the strike, his temperament is good because he has played some knocks when team was 3 down early. SKY is perfect for T20s.
Ankit_sharma03 Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 9 hours ago, Vijy said: azhar had a notable short-ball weakness, but he was a very effective lower MO bat. I used to feel he batted too high in ODIs given his strength vs spin bowling. his ideal position might have been no. 6 when we talk about azhar, waugh we forget they played in an era where 250 was a winning total Today u cant keep ducking surviving so much, u have to keep the momentum going on . Also iyer problem isnt just limited to short ball his strength is just finger spin , he has struggled against wrist spin too Vijy 1
Vijy Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 Just now, vvvslaxman said: Raina did have right through his career. Managed it until he lost reflexes. If he Iyer works on it he will be a great asset due to his temperament. I saw both, and Iyer's seems worse. he needs to at least start ducking, even if not hitting/defending these balls. as of now, I feel he should be a backup, not a starter
Vijy Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 Just now, Ankit_sharma03 said: when we talk about azhar, waugh we forget they played in an era where 250 was a winning total Today u cant keep ducking surviving so much, u have to keep the momentum going on . Also iyer problem isnt just limited to short ball his strength is just finger spin , he has struggled against wrist spin too I also think he will have issues with left-arm swing bowlers, although the sample size is low - maybe the stats say the opposite, but based on what I see, it does not seem convincing
zen Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Vijy said: azhar had a notable short-ball weakness, but he was a very effective lower MO bat. I used to feel he batted too high in ODIs given his strength vs spin bowling. his ideal position might have been no. 6 Azhar's avg is high because of 10 not outs in 20 games (in 50% of the games) ... He has scored like 2 50+ score in 20 innings, which is like 1 in 10 innings (probably less opportunities to convert) Edited July 17, 2022 by zen
Ankit_sharma03 Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 9 hours ago, Majestic said: Problem is there is no certainty of him wanting to play in middle order. The most likely thing that seems to be happening when KLR is back is that he opens and Dhawan gets dropped( if by any chance he gets dropped that's number one thing). With so many opening options avl soon he ll have no choice and he has to play for a while at that slot by that time his numbers will be so good that question will be raised against the logic We may have many opening option but middle order options arent still many (sabko top 3 men khelna hai)
Vijy Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 Just now, zen said: His avg is high because of 10 not outs in 20 games (in 50% of the games) ... He has scored like 2 50+ score in 20 innings, which is like 1 in 10 innings (probably less opportunities to convert) he came in rather late in those matches, hence the not-outs (and lack of 50s). I was looking at the scorecards, and I remember some of those games. he should have been used as a spin/medium pace specialist in his career instead of playing at 4. zen 1
Ankit_sharma03 Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 9 hours ago, vvvslaxman said: Raina did have right through his career. Managed it until he lost reflexes. If he Iyer works on it he will be a great asset due to his temperament. Raina problem was found pretty late and very few teams (like Sa and AUs) cud exploit it and on days they cudnt he use to hammer them bad With Raina it was simple if u dont get him he ll hit u bad Once every team started exploiting it well and his dip actually begin he just went downhill.
Vijy Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 12 minutes ago, zen said: Middle order is a wide term to use as it is divided into 2 parts: Upper middle order (#4-5) Lower middle order (#6-7) To make a consistent impact, match winner (or potential match winners being groomed) should be batting in the upper middle order. In lower middle order, the opportunities are relatively less. Upper middle order Primary team India Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies Batting position between 4 and 5 Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 250 and matches played greater than or equal to 20 Ordered by batting average (descending) Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 V Kohli 2009-2020 42 40 6 1748 139* 51.41 1946 89.82 6 9 0 MS Dhoni 2005-2019 110 99 22 3943 134 51.20 4456 88.48 3 29 2 AT Rayudu 2014-2019 25 23 4 766 100 40.31 926 82.72 1 5 2 SS Iyer 2018-2022 23 21 1 785 103 39.25 826 95.03 1 7 0 R Dravid 1996-2007 148 140 18 4689 109* 38.43 6577 71.29 3 40 7 RR Pant 2018-2022 22 20 1 729 125* 38.36 651 111.98 1 5 3 RG Sharma 2007-2012 50 48 9 1450 101* 37.17 1813 79.97 1 11 5 Yuvraj Singh 2000-2017 182 173 20 5625 150 36.76 6411 87.73 11 31 14 AM Rahane 2013-2018 21 20 1 690 89 36.31 810 85.18 0 5 0 A Jadeja 1995-2000 73 67 15 1854 105* 35.65 2542 72.93 3 8 4 DB Vengsarkar 1978-1990 77 74 12 2183 95* 35.20 3177 68.71 0 16 5 M Azharuddin 1985-2000 214 207 30 6216 111* 35.11 8375 74.22 3 42 4 KD Karthik 2006-2019 27 26 9 589 64* 34.64 848 69.45 0 4 2 SV Manjrekar 1988-1996 20 19 3 540 62 33.75 829 65.13 0 3 1 SK Raina 2006-2018 97 86 11 2526 100 33.68 2738 92.25 1 19 5 SR Tendulkar 1989-2007 92 88 14 2476 113 33.45 3231 76.63 3 18 8 M Kaif 2002-2006 32 31 5 764 95* 29.38 1201 63.61 0 6 5 Yashpal Sharma 1980-1985 20 20 2 525 89 29.16 842 62.35 0 3 0 SC Ganguly 1996-2007 26 24 1 581 85 25.26 823 70.59 0 3 1 VG Kambli 1992-2000 51 48 12 864 65 24.00 1249 69.17 0 4 2 SM Patil 1980-1986 33 31 1 688 84 22.93 801 85.89 0 6 3 GR Viswanath 1974-1982 23 23 1 439 75 19.95 830 52.89 0 2 1 N Kapil Dev 1981-1992 43 43 6 723 72 19.54 677 106.79 0 3 2 100s scored in upper middle order = 37 in 1371 innings Lower middle order Primary team India Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies Batting position between 6 and 7 Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 250 and matches played greater than or equal to 20 Ordered by batting average (descending) Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave BF SR 100 50 0 M Azharuddin 1985-1999 25 20 10 597 108* 59.70 639 93.42 1 1 0 MS Dhoni 2005-2019 179 149 49 4637 139* 46.37 5527 83.89 2 33 4 KM Jadhav 2014-2020 46 34 14 859 120 42.95 777 110.55 1 2 1 HH Pandya 2016-2022 45 29 4 938 92* 37.52 834 112.47 0 7 3 A Jadeja 1992-2000 55 48 10 1303 119 34.28 1732 75.23 1 6 2 YK Pathan 2008-2012 40 28 9 627 123* 33.00 532 117.85 2 3 3 SK Raina 2005-2018 78 68 14 1740 106 32.22 1903 91.43 1 8 7 Yuvraj Singh 2000-2011 61 51 8 1363 98* 31.69 1725 79.01 0 10 2 RA Jadeja 2009-2022 115 84 30 1652 87 30.59 1950 84.71 0 8 6 RJ Shastri 1982-1992 66 55 11 1279 73* 29.06 1662 76.95 0 7 2 RG Sharma 2007-2012 20 18 7 266 58 24.18 347 76.65 0 1 1 RR Singh 1989-2001 86 76 16 1436 75 23.93 1987 72.26 0 6 3 N Kapil Dev 1978-1994 162 142 29 2700 87 23.89 2977 90.69 0 10 11 M Kaif 2002-2006 60 49 10 914 87* 23.43 1219 74.97 0 5 3 IK Pathan 2004-2012 30 24 6 384 47* 21.33 554 69.31 0 0 2 NR Mongia 1994-2000 68 49 17 664 69 20.75 941 70.56 0 1 0 PK Amre 1991-1994 29 23 3 384 55 19.20 609 63.05 0 1 1 AK Sharma 1988-1993 20 18 3 279 52* 18.60 309 90.29 0 2 2 100s scored in lower middle order = 8 in 965 innings dhoni is impressive as expected. jadhav was underrated, especially in SC. Pandya has been excellent. a 50+ score once every 4 innings, batting avg not far from 40, and most importantly a high SR of 112. rollingstoned and Lord 2
vvvslaxman Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Vijy said: I saw both, and Iyer's seems worse. he needs to at least start ducking, even if not hitting/defending these balls. as of now, I feel he should be a backup, not a starter He did make 3 back to back fifties in NZ. Can't be an absolute slouch to do that. When he started his career he didn't look this bad. He smashed Starc all over the off side. I still think it is more of a pre-determined approach that is causing the issue.
Vijy Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 Just now, vvvslaxman said: He did make 3 back to back fifties in NZ. Can't be an absolute slouch to do that. When he started his career he didn't look this bad. He smashed Starc all over the off side. I still think it is more of a pre-determined approach that is causing the issue. NZ pitches are rather flat in ODIs. and they can't exploit bounce so well. anyway, I wish him the best and hope that he improves further. also needs to fix issues vs wrist spin
vvvslaxman Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 Just now, Vijy said: NZ pitches are rather flat in ODIs. and they can't exploit bounce so well. anyway, I wish him the best and hope that he improves further. also needs to fix issues vs wrist spin He makes the form count. That is what i like about him. Consecutive 50s atleast 3 or 4 times. Even in this dbeut test. He made a 100 followed by a 50 in the second innings. That makes a player reliable. Just look through the list of middle order 100 partnerships by INdia in recent times. Majority of them involving Shreyas Iyer. We cannot under-estimate this ability to construct partnerships.
zen Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Vijy said: dhoni is impressive as expected. jadhav was underrated, especially in SC. Pandya has been excellent. a 50+ score once every 4 innings, batting avg not far from 40, and most importantly a high SR of 112. Jadhav could probably have played at his purple patch (and maybe many games in Ind) It is mostly Dhoni & SDP. In terms of consistency - Dhoni made a 50+ score, once in 4 innings; SDP also 1 in 4 innings (and expected to get better) Many players make their debut at 27-28, SDP has already grinded out in international cricket versus top teams rollingstoned and Vijy 2
Vijy Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 Just now, vvvslaxman said: He makes the form count. That is what i like about him. Consecutive 50s atleast 3 or 4 times. Even in this dbeut test. He made a 100 followed by a 50 in the second innings. That makes a player reliable. Just look through the list of middle order 100 partnerships by INdia in recent times. Majority of them involving Shreyas Iyer. We cannot under-estimate this ability to construct partnerships. yes, but most of his successes (barring NZ) came in SC. I felt that the 5th test vs Eng was a truer reflection of where he stands. he's not bad by any means, but he does have some glaring issues at the moment.
vvvslaxman Posted July 17, 2022 Posted July 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Vijy said: yes, but most of his successes (barring NZ) came in SC. I felt that the 5th test vs Eng was a truer reflection of where he stands. he's not bad by any means, but he does have some glaring issues at the moment. Him being a taller guy he can learn to leave it on length or he can adopt Venky Iyer style who lifts his feet and gets on top of the bounce. Yusuf Pathan was another guy who was a sitting duck against short stuff. But he managed it with his height.
Number Posted July 18, 2022 Posted July 18, 2022 This is such a special win. I can't remember last time we chased 250+ after losing top 3 cheaply. Frustrated 1
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