Ravi Ashwin admiration society.

[Gollum]

4 hours ago, R!TTER said:

Jadeja is still the better bowler on flat Asian pitches - case in point Kanpur vs NZ last year, or SL in Mohali this year. And I've posted the numbers on flat tracks against SA, Eng, Oz in India numerous times. Yes Jadeja's regressed overall as a bowler but he's still better on flat pitches, away from Asia I wouldn't pick either just for their spin right now!

Who decides what is a flat track what is not? This is too simplistic a way to look at cricket, Was Ind-NZ 2016 Indore a flat track? Or Ind vs Eng 2016 Mumbai...even more examples post 2019 series against RSA (extremely high scoring pitches). Pitch can turn a mile and still be high scoring because of even nature (eg. consistent comfy bounce) of the pitch (common in Mumbai)....there are high scoring turners, low scoring non-turners, fast turners, low turners, bounce is a factor, as is two-paced nature......firstly impossible to agree upon classification of pitches., we'll all have our theories, then how do you map the flat pitches @sensible-indianfeel free to weigh in, I remember you once educating me about this in context of 2012 Mumbai test. 

 

Jadeja is the better bowler when it comes to exploiting footmarks  hence more likelier to do well on day 5 even if pitch is overall sedate, Ashwin is better on moist wickets, that explains his day 1 record in SENA.

 

Jadeja is slightly better in using angles, Ashwin is better in using overhead conditions (drift)....though both can do the converse as well.

 

Match up advantage for Jadeja against RHBs, for Ashwin against LHBs, advantage Jaddu. 

 

Jadeja is the better defensive bowler, Ashwin is the better attacking option, however Ashwin can bowl dry spells, so an overall advantage for him.

 

Jadeja has to prove in leading the attack, Ashwin is generally more experienced in being the senior, or first option by the skipper. Real test for Jadeja when Ashwin leaves the scene and Jadeja will be seen as our first spinner, setting the tone, guiding younger, less experienced Axar and Kuldeep. 

 

Jadeja is a more traditional spinner in the way he goes about things, Ashwin not so much and despite being an offie bowls much straighter lines to target both edges, which is tough to do sans doosra (in this aspect he is a true successor of Swann.)

 

Stylistically Jadeja is more McGrath, Ashwin is more Akram. 

 

Too many nuances.....

 

Truth be told, apart from Warne and Murali, all spinners struggle when there isn't assistance, pointless to argue who is less worse. Those 2 are in a different league, the rung below them has several candidates and they all have pros/cons.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Gollum

[Vijy]

14 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Who decides what is a flat track what is not? This is too simplistic a way to look at cricket, Was Ind-NZ 2016 Indore a flat track? Or Ind vs Eng 2016 Mumbai...even more examples post 2019 series against RSA (extremely high scoring pitches). Pitch can turn a mile and still be high scoring because of even nature (eg. consistent comfy bounce) of the pitch (common in Mumbai)....there are high scoring turners, low scoring non-turners, fast turners, low turners, bounce is a factor, as is two-paced nature......firstly impossible to agree upon classification of pitches., we'll all have our theories, then how do you map the flat pitches @sensible-indianfeel free to weigh in, I remember you once educating me about this in context of 2012 Mumbai test. 

 

Jadeja is the better bowler when it comes to exploiting footmarks  hence more likelier to do well on day 5 even if pitch is overall sedate, Ashwin is better on moist wickets, that explains his day 1 record in SENA.

 

Jadeja is slightly better in using angles, Ashwin is better in using overhead conditions (drift)....though both can do the converse as well.

 

Match up advantage for Jadeja against RHBs, for Ashwin against LHBs, advantage Jaddu. 

 

Jadeja is the better defensive bowler, Ashwin is the better attacking option, however Ashwin can bowl dry spells, so an overall advantage for him.

 

Jadeja has to prove in leading the attack, Ashwin is generally more experienced in being the senior, or first option by the skipper. Real test for Jadeja when Ashwin leaves the scene and Jadeja will be seen as our first spinner, setting the tone, guiding younger, less experienced Axar and Kuldeep. 

 

Jadeja is a more traditional spinner in the way he goes about things, Ashwin not so much and despite being an offie bowls much straighter lines to target both edges, which is tough to do sans doosra (in this aspect he is a true successor of Swann.)

 

Stylistically Jadeja is more McGrath, Ashwin is more Akram. 

 

Too many nuances.....

 

Truth be told, apart from Warne and Murali, all spinners struggle when there isn't assistance, pointless to argue who is less worse. Those 2 are in a different league, the rung below them has several candidates and they all have pros/cons.

I would say that chandra was pretty good in all conditions (it's just that most places were graveyards for spin) and so was laker.

[Gollum]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

I would say that chandra was pretty good in all conditions (it's just that most places were graveyards for spin) and so was laker.

Think Chandra is a a bit overrated here. Did well in Aus but which Aus? Luckily for him and Gavaskar, Indian fans overlook which Aus we faced in 1977-78

 

NZ was a rank minnow back then.

 

WI gave us spin friendly pitches for most part in 1976 before Lloyd decided enough was enough in Sabina Park.

 

Did somewhat well in Eng, nothing out of the world but better than what most Indian spinners have managed there.

[Vijy]

6 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Think Chandra is a a bit overrated here. Did well in Aus but which Aus? Luckily for him and Gavaskar, Indian fans overlook which Aus we faced in 1977-78

 

NZ was a rank minnow back then.

 

WI gave us spin friendly pitches for most part in 1976 before Lloyd decided enough was enough in Sabina Park.

 

Did somewhat well in Eng, nothing out of the world but better than what most Indian spinners have managed there.

none of the opposition was great, but he did what he could - you can only play who's in front of you. and pitches were not that friendly for spin; mostly flatter tracks everywhere.

[R!TTER]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Who decides what is a flat track what is not? This is too simplistic a way to look at cricket, Was Ind-NZ 2016 Indore a flat track?

The scores should give you a fair indicator, would they not? Or is there any other criteria? And yes you can easily check which of them has generally been the worse spinner on flat tracks just by looking at their bowling - you brought up Indore I can count at least 5 such games post 2015/16 - including the two I mentioned.

 

 

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Ashwin is generally more experienced in being the senior, or first option by the skipper.

Ashwin's best figures have been on tracks where there's considerable amount of turn! And if you want hard numbers here they are -

 

To provide additional information, I have listed five high wicket-takers who missed out on the top ten. Shane Warne, James Anderson and Broad have WQI averages higher than 1.02, while Courtney Walsh and Murali just about break even. Murali took a lot of late-order wickets. Kumble has an average WQI value of around 0.99. Overall, spinners find it difficult to get on to the table. Ravindra Jadeja is the highest-placed spinner, in 14th place, with an average WQI of 1.037.

 

https://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story/1320218/the-real-value-of-wickets---can-anyone-match-mcgrath

 

If you've watched both of them play on flat tracks you wouldn't even bring this up! Spin it as  much as you may Jadeja is the better spinner & has higher qualify wickets (more % from top order) in tests 

 

If you want to continue this useless song & dance be my guest 

[Gollum]

14 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

The scores should give you a fair indicator, would they not? Or is there any other criteria? And yes you can easily check which of them has generally been the worse spinner on flat tracks just by looking at their bowling - you brought up Indore I can count at least 5 such games post 2015/16 - including the two I mentioned.

 

 

Ashwin's best figures have been on tracks where there's considerable amount of turn! And if you want hard numbers here they are -

 

To provide additional information, I have listed five high wicket-takers who missed out on the top ten. Shane Warne, James Anderson and Broad have WQI averages higher than 1.02, while Courtney Walsh and Murali just about break even. Murali took a lot of late-order wickets. Kumble has an average WQI value of around 0.99. Overall, spinners find it difficult to get on to the table. Ravindra Jadeja is the highest-placed spinner, in 14th place, with an average WQI of 1.037.

 

https://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story/1320218/the-real-value-of-wickets---can-anyone-match-mcgrath

 

If you've watched both of them play on flat tracks you wouldn't even bring this up! Spin it as  much as you may Jadeja is the better spinner & has higher qualify wickets (more % from top order) in tests 

 

If you want to continue this useless song & dance be my guest 

No I don't agree with you...but anyway time permitting I will read that article, it looks too long!!!! And I didn't just bring up Indore, I haven't even looked closely at all the tests featuring them, those were examples. 

 

Maybe we can take this discussion further another day.

Edited December 25, 2022 by Gollum

[vvvslaxman]

There is no way this charade can be allowed to continue depending on Ashwin/Jadeja/Thakur.  Nowadays off spin has become one of the least useful skill. Even England banked on Root more than their specialist off spinner in the recent series.  We have to give more chances to Sundar. He already has shown signs of all round capabilities at first class level

 

As a 17 year old 

 

88 & 42  and  11 wicket haul in D/N match Duleep Trophy

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/duleep-trophy-2017-18-1118603/india-red-vs-india-blue-1118611/full-scorecard

[speedracer]

20 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

There is no way this charade can be allowed to continue depending on Ashwin/Jadeja/Thakur.  Nowadays off spin has become one of the least useful skill. Even England banked on Root more than their specialist off spinner in the recent series.  We have to give more chances to Sundar. He already has shown signs of all round capabilities at first class level

 

As a 17 year old 

 

88 & 42  and  11 wicket haul in D/N match Duleep Trophy

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/duleep-trophy-2017-18-1118603/india-red-vs-india-blue-1118611/full-scorecard

Sundar looks like a special talent. He could become a great batsman who can bowl a bit or he can become a Greta bowler who can bat a bit. Up to him to choose.

[Vilander]

That well left against pak, now the clutch inning against BD to win a series. Definition of street smart cricketer. 

[Vilander]

Duplicate

Edited December 26, 2022 by Vilander

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, speedracer said:

Sundar looks like a special talent. He could become a great batsman who can bowl a bit or he can become a Greta bowler who can bat a bit. Up to him to choose.

no, he cannot become a great bowler - too limited in his arsenal.

 

but he can become a clutch VVS-like batter, and also bowl tidily.

[speedracer]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

no, he cannot become a great bowler - too limited in his arsenal.

 

but he can become a clutch VVS-like batter, and also bowl tidily.

Agreed. Still think he can develop as bowler too but yes he can be a an atg in batting if he is given the license and the backing from management. A true special talent

 

Edited December 26, 2022 by speedracer

[cricspirit]

Sundar is the most injured young player I have seen. I liked his display of batting talent for the few occasions he dug in. However unless he can improve fitness, he cant be a regular in any Indian side. His bowling is ok but there is Axar there fighting for that spot of bowling all-rounder. 

 

Task for Sundar is simple - Stay fit, display skills to be a top 5 batter. Then we will finally have a top order bat who can bowl.

 

 

Unfortunately Ashwin- Jadeja will leave a hole for India to fill. No two other spinners provide the same range of utility. A admire Ashwin for his bowling but enjoy his batting too. I feel he could not get enough runs from the batting talent he had.

Edited December 26, 2022 by cricspirit

[Vijy]

1 hour ago, cricspirit said:

Sundar is the most injured young player I have seen. I liked his display of batting talent for the few occasions he dug in. However unless he can improve fitness, he cant be a regular in any Indian side. His bowling is ok but there is Axar there fighting for that spot of bowling all-rounder. 

 

Task for Sundar is simple - Stay fit, display skills to be a top 5 batter. Then we will finally have a top order bat who can bowl.

 

 

Unfortunately Ashwin- Jadeja will leave a hole for India to fill. No two other spinners provide the same range of utility. A admire Ashwin for his bowling but enjoy his batting too. I feel he could not get enough runs from the batting talent he had.

axar and saurabh are both SLA who can bat. they are not as good as Jaddu with the bat, but will do okay in home conditions. Replacing Jaddu like-for-like is very difficult.

Ashwin is an offie, and offies are going to die out altogether pretty soon

[Vk1]

couple of good years and Ashwin has the realistic chance of retiring with a career average of <24 

[Vilander]

On 12/25/2022 at 8:19 PM, cricspirit said:

Sundar is the most injured young player I have seen. I liked his display of batting talent for the few occasions he dug in. However unless he can improve fitness, he cant be a regular in any Indian side. His bowling is ok but there is Axar there fighting for that spot of bowling all-rounder. 

 

Task for Sundar is simple - Stay fit, display skills to be a top 5 batter. Then we will finally have a top order bat who can bowl.

 

 

Unfortunately Ashwin- Jadeja will leave a hole for India to fill. No two other spinners provide the same range of utility. A admire Ashwin for his bowling but enjoy his batting too. I feel he could not get enough runs from the batting talent he had.

 

Ashwin Jadeja - Axar Sundar , in reverse got both bases covered

[speedracer]

On 12/26/2022 at 12:57 PM, Vijy said:

axar and saurabh are both SLA who can bat. they are not as good as Jaddu with the bat, but will do okay in home conditions. Replacing Jaddu like-for-like is very difficult.

Ashwin is an offie, and offies are going to die out altogether pretty soon

Sundar

 

Axar

Saurabh 

 

 

Agreed jaddu will be hard to replace but I think sundar has serious potential to be an atg batsman who can bowl a bit. But to be a match winner like jaddu with the ball, I don't know. 

 

Ash can be replaced I suppose but man these 2 are gods of Asia. Made us invincible. Pace attack ofocurse played a huge role too. There is just no respite. 

 

Fully fit firing shami siraj chukrah the ipl man if he comes back then you got to deal with jaddu and Ash maestro. If you survive them then there will be axar. If sundar is ready then he can chip in too. Absolute ruthless killing instinct. 

 

I mean credit to these 2 and bowling for us being able to win despite carrying t passengers in batting. Imagine if we actually replaced those 4 bozos, even a goat tier side won't stop this team.

[Suhaan]

1 hour ago, speedracer said:

Fully fit firing shami siraj chukrah the ipl man if he comes back then you got to deal with jaddu and Ash maestro.

Chukrah,Who are you referring to?

 

I believe,Bumrah

Are you serious?from which angle does he look like one?

[speedracer]

35 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Chukrah,Who are you referring to?

 

I believe,Bumrah

Are you serious?from which angle does he look like one?

Bunrah and no he does not chuck one bit. When I am pissed about him missing games I call him chuckrah.