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Dispelling the last great Pakistani myth: that they have historically been a better team than India

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On 10/29/2022 at 7:22 AM, Gollum said:

Historically Pak has been a better team than India, not because they were something special but because we sucked so bad. We haven't had a fast bowling culture for 90% of our cricket history, beat that. Forget H2H rivalry, historically Pak has a better record against major cricket nations. Sure they resorted to dark arts like ball tampering, chucking etc., but even accounting for that they have the edge. Indian team was dreadful in 50s/60s and for most parts of 70s, 80s, 90s in test cricket. In between 1985 to 2001 we only had a couple of overseas test wins, one each in Lanka/Bangladesh.....Bangladesh in last 15 odd years has multiple test wins in WI/Lanka and didn't they recently win a test in NZ?

 

We have been better since the turn of the millennium, and the gap will only get wider especially in the format that counts, test cricket. Personally don't give much weightage to white ball results except 50 overs WCs, we should win more WCs in coming years and close the gap with the greatest cricket nation, Australia. But what is disgraceful is that even Sri Lanka has a better win % in test cricket...how does one explain that?

 

Even in modern (astroturf era) field hockey, Pak has been historically better. If you look at the overall picture, till mid 60s we were better, then they were ahead till mid 2000s, now again pendulum turned in our favor the last 15 odd years. Mid-70s/80s Pak hockey team was something, they had an aura like the legendary WI cricket team of that era. Credit where due.

 

In these 2 main (for us, not for rest of the world) sports which both India and Pakistan are passionate about, Pakistan has the edge, though we will eventually surpass them. No need to get defensive or sugarcoat/cherrypick selective stats to make us look better than we are.

 

In almost all other major sports, we are comfortably ahead, as can be seen in medal table in Olympics, Asian Games, CWG etc. That gap will only widen and India will soon be competing with sporting powerhouses on equal footing. That is what interests me, I am expecting a double digit medal count in Paris 2024 and from then on Indian sports will take off to another level. Cricket will take a backseat when that happens, only reason why SC people are so crazy about this minor, irrelevant sport is because historically we haven't had sporting culture/achievements to speak of. At least for India that will change soon enough and we will stop giving too much importance to these rivalries with mediocre Pakistan. Focus will change at that point to how we can compete with much greater sporting countries like Canada, South Korea, Brazil, Spain, Cuba, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, NZ, Kenya in 2028/2032. When we have multiple Neeraj Chopras, Mirabais, Sindhus etc., we'll stop giving bhaav to 90% of Indian cricket/cricketers. Our ultimate aim must be to consistently finish in top 10 (top 5 may be a bridge too far unless we are the home nation) in Olympics medal table and make ourselves worthy enough to host an Olympics, fervently wish all of us see this happen in our lifetime. 

 

SC is the worst region on this planet when it comes to sports (and most other things, topic for another day), cricket is a minor sport played by a handful of nations, most of which come from SC. Hope that in coming years India sets itself apart from these silly comparisons with Pakistan, and aims for much greater things. Our benchmark must be much higher. 

I’m expecting top 5 finish by 2048 and hosting 2036 and 2040. Thing is medal counts won’t go up by just 1-2 for india. They will grow exponentially.

 

our shooting and wrestling contingents are almost there. In a decades time I expect 10-15 from these two alone.

 

as far as cricket is concerned we have a higher w/l ratio in odi and t20i (odi happened a few years ago). Plus we have more titles. So we are already a superior loi team than them historically. H2h doesn’t matter as it is lopsided due to Pakistan india not playing regularly now (in 2010s Ind pak h2h is 15-5). Our h2h against a lot of teams is better than theirs in odi.

 

in test cricket our w/l ratio will cross theirs in 2-3 years plus we have won test series in more countries so even there we are historically better.

 

as far as hockey is concerned they might have been good in the 70s-80s but the greatest hockey team was the Indian team that won six consecutive golds.

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3 hours ago, deathmonger said:

I’m expecting top 5 finish by 2048 and hosting 2036 and 2040

Aur time lagega. For that we need to diversify. Athletics, swimming, gymnastics, diving, cycling, fencing, judo, taekwondo, rowing, sailing, TT will have at least 60% of total medals I guess. Unless we make big breakthroughs in some of these sports, no chance. Tough to see that happen so soon. 

3 hours ago, deathmonger said:

 

our shooting and wrestling contingents are almost there. In a decades time I expect 10-15 from these two alone.

Our shooting is overrated, zero in 2016, zero in Tokyo. There were 15 gold medals for grabs.

 

Wrestling mein again we are a big fat zero in Greco-Roman (we can't even win a single qualification match for Olympics, that's our level). Bas freestyle hi karte hai, we are still a long way behind. Followed the recent World Wrestling Championship in Serbia? India got only 2 bronze medals, both by repechage, way way behind USA, Japan, Iran....and this time Russia didn't participate. The person who teched Bajrang (Yianni) couldn't find a place in his national team (USA), and funny thing he also beat Bajrang 3 years ago when he was a teenager (and NCAA champion).

In short, long long way to go even in freestyle wrestling, competition bahut tagda hai. 

 

10-15 from these 2?

Rio mein 1, Tokyo mein 2, best was London (4)....

3 hours ago, deathmonger said:

as far as cricket is concerned we have a higher w/l ratio in odi and t20i (odi happened a few years ago). Plus we have more titles. So we are already a superior loi team than them historically. H2h doesn’t matter as it is lopsided due to Pakistan india not playing regularly now (in 2010s Ind pak h2h is 15-5). Our h2h against a lot of teams is better than theirs in odi.

 

in test cricket our w/l ratio will cross theirs in 2-3 years plus we have won test series in more countries so even there we are historically better.

Test cricket is main for me, that shows the true worth of  any cricket nation. We are behind Lanka, and will take us at least 10 years to surpass Pakistan (due to huge sample size, number of test matches per year, draws etc.). They have more series wins in SENA, better W/L in SENA. They did better in WI when WI cricket was at its prime. 

3 hours ago, deathmonger said:

 

as far as hockey is concerned they might have been good in the 70s-80s but the greatest hockey team was the Indian team that won six consecutive golds.

Good is an understatement, they were GOAT level in the 70s and 80s. If not for the emergence of Dutch in 90s and Australians/Germans soon after the all time XI would be 75% Pakistani. 

Indian team that won 6 consecutive golds played another sport called grass hockey, nothing in common with modern hockey. Also competition was way less back then. They were like Bradman's invincibles, Pak of 70s/80s was like GOAT WI. To do what they did on astro against the goras, against gora umpiring, you have to give them full credit. Not just the wins, but the way they won those WCs and Olympics, crush the opponents in first half and toy with them in second half. Look at the H2H of Pak against the gora teams, compare with Ind...despite their steep decline last 2 decades, they lead H2H against almost all teams, don't even want to talk about India's H2Hs.

 

 

1978 WC

1982 WC

1984 Olympics

 

Only missed out on 1980 because of international politics...that weak Indian team won gold. What Pak hockey achieved in that period of time surpasses anything Indian hockey has ever achieved. You can't compare 40s/50s competition with modern era. 

 

Netherlands of 90s in my mind is GOAT team, 2 WCs and 2 Olympic golds in that decade, not just statistically, they learnt Pak brand of hockey and perfected it for modern game, teams now want to emulate that Dutch team, influence/legacy also matters. Germany overachieved by winning 4 in 2002-12....maybe throw in Australia (underachieved in Olympics)...and Pak of late 70s till mid 80s. These are the greatest teams of modern hockey, Pak 2nd, Dutch 1st. 

Edited by Gollum
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Shouldn't draw equivalence of Pak hockey team with their cricket team. No unfair methods employed by them in hockey, just pure skills, artistry, athleticism, poetry in motion. 

 

Shahbaz Ahmed Sr., Hassan Sardar, both GOATs, both greater than any cricketer produced by Pakistan. 

Edited by Gollum
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31 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Shouldn't draw equivalence of Pak hockey team with their cricket team. No unfair methods employed by them in hockey, just pure skills, artistry, athleticism, poetry in motion. 

 

Shahbaz Ahmed Sr., Hassan Sardar, both GOATs, both greater than any cricketer produced by Pakistan. 

 

All protein rich diet with jazba junoon ka kamaal

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On 10/29/2022 at 2:52 AM, Gollum said:

Historically Pak has been a better team than India, not because they were something special but because we sucked so bad. We haven't had a fast bowling culture for 90% of our cricket history, beat that. Forget H2H rivalry, historically Pak has a better record against major cricket nations. Sure they resorted to dark arts like ball tampering, chucking etc., but even accounting for that they have the edge. Indian team was dreadful in 50s/60s and for most parts of 70s, 80s, 90s in test cricket. In between 1985 to 2001 we only had a couple of overseas test wins, one each in Lanka/Bangladesh.....Bangladesh in last 15 odd years has multiple test wins in WI/Lanka and didn't they recently win a test in NZ?

 

We have been better since the turn of the millennium, and the gap will only get wider especially in the format that counts, test cricket. Personally don't give much weightage to white ball results except 50 overs WCs, we should win more WCs in coming years and close the gap with the greatest cricket nation, Australia. But what is disgraceful is that even Sri Lanka has a better win % in test cricket...how does one explain that?

 

Even in modern (astroturf era) field hockey, Pak has been historically better. If you look at the overall picture, till mid 60s we were better, then they were ahead till mid 2000s, now again pendulum turned in our favor the last 15 odd years. Mid-70s/80s Pak hockey team was something, they had an aura like the legendary WI cricket team of that era. Credit where due.

 

In these 2 main (for us, not for rest of the world) sports which both India and Pakistan are passionate about, Pakistan has the edge, though we will eventually surpass them. No need to get defensive or sugarcoat/cherrypick selective stats to make us look better than we are.

 

In almost all other major sports, we are comfortably ahead, as can be seen in medal table in Olympics, Asian Games, CWG etc. That gap will only widen and India will soon be competing with sporting powerhouses on equal footing. That is what interests me, I am expecting a double digit medal count in Paris 2024 and from then on Indian sports will take off to another level. Cricket will take a backseat when that happens, only reason why SC people are so crazy about this minor, irrelevant sport is because historically we haven't had sporting culture/achievements to speak of. At least for India that will change soon enough and we will stop giving too much importance to these rivalries with mediocre Pakistan. Focus will change at that point to how we can compete with much greater sporting countries like Canada, South Korea, Brazil, Spain, Cuba, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, NZ, Kenya in 2028/2032. When we have multiple Neeraj Chopras, Mirabais, Sindhus etc., we'll stop giving bhaav to 90% of Indian cricket/cricketers. Our ultimate aim must be to consistently finish in top 10 (top 5 may be a bridge too far unless we are the home nation) in Olympics medal table and make ourselves worthy enough to host an Olympics, fervently wish all of us see this happen in our lifetime. 

 

SC is the worst region on this planet when it comes to sports (and most other things, topic for another day), cricket is a minor sport played by a handful of nations, most of which come from SC. Hope that in coming years India sets itself apart from these silly comparisons with Pakistan, and aims for much greater things. Our benchmark must be much higher. 

India was the third best test team in the late 70s, again ranked 2/3 in the mid 90s, best odi team from 85/86, india has a better record against all the major test nations than Pakistan, our record in wi, SA, aus and sl is superior than them, in the 70s we beat eng in eng and wi, we draw a series against aus in the 80s, even in the 90s home record was terrific, Pakistan lost to aus, sl, Zimbabwe, drew with England in the 90s and early 2000s, overrated team they were.

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Re test teams the Pakistani teams never seemed to be that dominant at home but competitive abroad, whilr even some ordinary Indian teams through the decades were quite dominant at home eg the 90s team. What is damning is them being a complete non factor in Australia though for a long time now which should not have happened for their fast bowling edge that they had. 

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5 hours ago, Ravi_Shastri said:

Showing world cup stats etc doesn't change the fact that they have a better head-to-head against us because they have been a better team than us from mid 80s till 2000.

Nothing to be ashamed of that.

We are the better team now.

Simple

Ashamed of what exactly?

 

Nobody is denying that they overall have the better HTH record in ODIs. It just doesnt offset the fact that India have more WCs, more CTs and more Asia Cups to go WITH a bettet hth record where it matters most. Pakistan would give 20 of their coca cola cup wins for a chance to win WC 2011 semi or WC 1996 semi lol.

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2 hours ago, Dil Dil India said:

Ashamed of what exactly?

 

Nobody is denying that they overall have the better HTH record in ODIs. It just doesnt offset the fact that India have more WCs, more CTs and more Asia Cups to go WITH a bettet hth record where it matters most. Pakistan would give 20 of their coca cola cup wins for a chance to win WC 2011 semi or WC 1996 semi lol.

Nobody denied India has performed much better than Pak in icc events

why are mixing up debates?

btw

cricket is not just world cups

For you and many others of this generation might be “cool” thing to say “darling bilateral series suck” etc

yet every one of those create 100 page threads for these called “meaningless” bilaterals.

 

some of the most memorable moments in Indian cricket also happened in these tournaments like Sachin’s desert storm.

 

.

 

Edited by Ravi_Shastri
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9 hours ago, Ravi_Shastri said:

Nobody denied India has performed much better than Pak in icc events

why are mixing up debates?

btw

cricket is not just world cups

For you and many others of this generation might be “cool” thing to say “darling bilateral series suck” etc

yet every one of those create 100 page threads for these called “meaningless” bilaterals.

 

some of the most memorable moments in Indian cricket also happened in these tournaments like Sachin’s desert storm.

 

.

 

Shastri jaani, it seems you are being deliberately dense. You are the only one mixing up stuff.

 

What I said: 

 

Pakistan have a superior HTH ODI record (slightly) but India have more WCs, more trophies AND a better HTH when it matters most. The argument is not that the coca cola kitply and pav bhaji trophies didnt matter at all. Every time an Indian player steps on the field even against Kenya it matters. That is not the point.

 

The point is the Pakistani argument about the slight overall HTH making everything else redundant is deliberately deceitful and intellecually dishonest...much like your your post.

 

Let me know if you actually have an argument other than claiming nonsense I didnt say or allude to in the slighest.

Edited by Dil Dil India
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16 hours ago, Gollum said:

Aur time lagega. For that we need to diversify. Athletics, swimming, gymnastics, diving, cycling, fencing, judo, taekwondo, rowing, sailing, TT will have at least 60% of total medals I guess. Unless we make big breakthroughs in some of these sports, no chance. Tough to see that happen so soon. 

Our shooting is overrated, zero in 2016, zero in Tokyo. There were 15 gold medals for grabs.

 

Wrestling mein again we are a big fat zero in Greco-Roman (we can't even win a single qualification match for Olympics, that's our level). Bas freestyle hi karte hai, we are still a long way behind. Followed the recent World Wrestling Championship in Serbia? India got only 2 bronze medals, both by repechage, way way behind USA, Japan, Iran....and this time Russia didn't participate. The person who teched Bajrang (Yianni) couldn't find a place in his national team (USA), and funny thing he also beat Bajrang 3 years ago when he was a teenager (and NCAA champion).

In short, long long way to go even in freestyle wrestling, competition bahut tagda hai. 

 

10-15 from these 2?

Rio mein 1, Tokyo mein 2, best was London (4)....

Test cricket is main for me, that shows the true worth of  any cricket nation. We are behind Lanka, and will take us at least 10 years to surpass Pakistan (due to huge sample size, number of test matches per year, draws etc.). They have more series wins in SENA, better W/L in SENA. They did better in WI when WI cricket was at its prime. 

Good is an understatement, they were GOAT level in the 70s and 80s. If not for the emergence of Dutch in 90s and Australians/Germans soon after the all time XI would be 75% Pakistani. 

Indian team that won 6 consecutive golds played another sport called grass hockey, nothing in common with modern hockey. Also competition was way less back then. They were like Bradman's invincibles, Pak of 70s/80s was like GOAT WI. To do what they did on astro against the goras, against gora umpiring, you have to give them full credit. Not just the wins, but the way they won those WCs and Olympics, crush the opponents in first half and toy with them in second half. Look at the H2H of Pak against the gora teams, compare with Ind...despite their steep decline last 2 decades, they lead H2H against almost all teams, don't even want to talk about India's H2Hs.

 

 

1978 WC

1982 WC

1984 Olympics

 

Only missed out on 1980 because of international politics...that weak Indian team won gold. What Pak hockey achieved in that period of time surpasses anything Indian hockey has ever achieved. You can't compare 40s/50s competition with modern era. 

 

Netherlands of 90s in my mind is GOAT team, 2 WCs and 2 Olympic golds in that decade, not just statistically, they learnt Pak brand of hockey and perfected it for modern game, teams now want to emulate that Dutch team, influence/legacy also matters. Germany overachieved by winning 4 in 2002-12....maybe throw in Australia (underachieved in Olympics)...and Pak of late 70s till mid 80s. These are the greatest teams of modern hockey, Pak 2nd, Dutch 1st. 

Dude I follow sports. Like I said it won’t be a linear jump but an exponential. India keeps winning bronzes in freestyle and womens but if you look at performance in u23, u20 and u16 the performances keep getting better and better including Greco Roman. In a decades time these kids will come up and give you 5-6.

 

shooting was a choke job last time but like I said they are almost there winning everywhere else. Just need to get over this hurdle and in a decades time they will be 5-6. It won’t be linear but all at same time.

 

indias w/l record in tests will take 2-3 years to overtake Pakistan not 10. Just check the stats. 
 

also you are contradicting yourself. You quote wins in wi when wi was strong and then also wins in sena. Thing is they have only won in E and N and that too when they were weak. This is similar to how we have won so much in WI. We have also won series in England and Australia when they were strong - 2007 and 2021 and drawn against prolly the GOAT SA team in 2011.

 

1930s/1940s/1950s Ind team is greater than any 70s/80s Pakistani team. Six consecutive golds is no joke. Just cause you didn’t see it doesn’t mean it never happened. People still consider Brad man the GOAT even though it was in a different era and “had less competition”. Dhyan Chands hockey team is the GOAT team. No one remembers Pakistani hockey including Pakistani themselves.

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Until the culture of making demi gods of batsmen changes, we will never be a force to reckon with.

 

Someone like Bumrah or Zaheer Khan should have been the demi gods as their contributions are always ignored and that goes through even in FC level and IPL without bowler friendly pitches other than slow and low pitches.

 

Look at Haris Rauf and how he is encouraged. Umran Malik our only guy who could bowl at this pace was discarded completely. Every kid wants to be a fast bowler in Pakistan or an all rounder.

 

In India everyone wants to be a KL Rahul, Rohit Sharma or Kohli. This is the problem as cricket like many other sports the better the fielding and defence (bowling) the better the team performs.

 

Look at even the mighty Aussies in the 90's and early 2000's it was their bowling that won them games and not batting. Bevan rescued them off of impossible situations as even the GOAT Aussies had weakness in batting.

 

So in the long run sure we can get away with winning some bilaterals in pattas but eventually people will get bored on high scoring matches (as we are seeing in IPL viewership going down) and want spicy pitches like we are seeing in Aus. At that point, we will not be able to catch up.

 

If you see the teams, the minute it became easier to bat and pitches had nothing for bowlers, India became a better team vs. Pak. The minute the pitches had something for fast bowlers like the CT game with Aamir, we lost out.

 

Now coming back to Olympics a nation of 1 billion + people and we have to compare ourselves to Pak or Bangladesh. That's laughable.

 

We had a world class football player in Baichung Bhutia and people made fun of him as a non-Indian Chinese instead of making him a national hero. This sort of stupidity and ignorance is what will bring the country down forever.

 

Compare ourselves to a China or a Brazil. That's a fair comparison and we are seriously lagging.

 

That all comes down to no proper encouragement or facilities. Right from schooling when we were very interested in sports like Soccer or running, the schools put all resources in the cricket teams.

 

In China, Singapore, US etc. the freaks of nature kids who perform really well naturally in a sport like Michael Phelps are sent to the best schools and academies to train on government's dime. In India this never happens unless the kids come from a relatively rich background. Even then, winning a gold medal in olympics is not the same as hitting a century in IPL for ads, celebrity and demi god worship.

 

So I am 100% in confident in saying until the culture of society changes, we will never be in top 10 in Olympics even in 2050. Most of the talented players in all sports, will end up working as techies or immigrating out of India and tell stories to their grand kids about how they won medals in their school days.

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1 hour ago, BlueBlood said:

Until the culture of making demi gods of batsmen changes, we will never be a force to reckon with.

 

Someone like Bumrah or Zaheer Khan should have been the demi gods as their contributions are always ignored and that goes through even in FC level and IPL without bowler friendly pitches other than slow and low pitches.

 

Look at Haris Rauf and how he is encouraged. Umran Malik our only guy who could bowl at this pace was discarded completely. Every kid wants to be a fast bowler in Pakistan or an all rounder.

 

In India everyone wants to be a KL Rahul, Rohit Sharma or Kohli. This is the problem as cricket like many other sports the better the fielding and defence (bowling) the better the team performs.

 

Look at even the mighty Aussies in the 90's and early 2000's it was their bowling that won them games and not batting. Bevan rescued them off of impossible situations as even the GOAT Aussies had weakness in batting.

 

So in the long run sure we can get away with winning some bilaterals in pattas but eventually people will get bored on high scoring matches (as we are seeing in IPL viewership going down) and want spicy pitches like we are seeing in Aus. At that point, we will not be able to catch up.

 

If you see the teams, the minute it became easier to bat and pitches had nothing for bowlers, India became a better team vs. Pak. The minute the pitches had something for fast bowlers like the CT game with Aamir, we lost out.

 

Now coming back to Olympics a nation of 1 billion + people and we have to compare ourselves to Pak or Bangladesh. That's laughable.

 

We had a world class football player in Baichung Bhutia and people made fun of him as a non-Indian Chinese instead of making him a national hero. This sort of stupidity and ignorance is what will bring the country down forever.

 

Compare ourselves to a China or a Brazil. That's a fair comparison and we are seriously lagging.

 

That all comes down to no proper encouragement or facilities. Right from schooling when we were very interested in sports like Soccer or running, the schools put all resources in the cricket teams.

 

In China, Singapore, US etc. the freaks of nature kids who perform really well naturally in a sport like Michael Phelps are sent to the best schools and academies to train on government's dime. In India this never happens unless the kids come from a relatively rich background. Even then, winning a gold medal in olympics is not the same as hitting a century in IPL for ads, celebrity and demi god worship.

 

So I am 100% in confident in saying until the culture of society changes, we will never be in top 10 in Olympics even in 2050. Most of the talented players in all sports, will end up working as techies or immigrating out of India and tell stories to their grand kids about how they won medals in their school days.

We will easily be top 10 in 2050.

 

you are making a big mistake comparing to first world countries - they have been first world for decades now so their society doesn’t change.


india is a rapidly growing economy so society changes rapidly as well. 
 

sports proficiency is all dependent on per capita income. Brazil and China are much richer countries. They are 0.75+ hdi and usd 8k-12k countries. We are 0.65 and usd 2.5k. We will reach that level in the 2040s and you will see changes.

 

compare Tokyo 2020 to Sydney 2000 and see the changes. See the cricket teams, the hockey teams etc. Now 20-30 years later imagine where they will be.

 

check out south Korea’s medal hauls in the 1970s.

 

Societal changes follow economic growth. Singapore South Korea Taiwan etc were all third world countries once.

Edited by deathmonger
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20 hours ago, Gollum said:

 

Test cricket is main for me, that shows the true worth of  any cricket nation. We are behind Lanka, and will take us at least 10 years to surpass Pakistan (due to huge sample size, number of test matches per year, draws etc.). They have more series wins in SENA, better W/L in SENA. They did better in WI when WI cricket was at its prime. 

 

 

Aren't they yet to win a series in Australia and South Africa? Then how come they have more wins in SENA?

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1 hour ago, BlueBlood said:

 

Look at even the mighty Aussies in the 90's and early 2000's it was their bowling that won them games and not batting. Bevan rescued them off of impossible situations as even the GOAT Aussies had weakness in batting.

 

 

 

:hysterical:

Edited by MechEng
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