1st Test Nagpur, February 09 - 13, 2023, Australia tour of India - PREMATCH

[speedracer]

56 minutes ago, Vijy said:

declining smith or pre-injury pant (who is absent)?

Pant is as good imo talent wise just not consistent. Pant is more destructive though 

[Stan AF]

@Austin 3:!6

 

Who is opening the match thread???.

[AKane]

3 hours ago, Gollum said:

There's a reason ATGs like Lillee, Roberts rate Vishy above Sunny.

 

There's also a reason why Imran, Botham, Willis rate Sunny above Vishy. 

 

The same series with Simpson had Jeff Thomson. Sunny had 3 hundreds versus Thommo.  BTW Sunny still rates that Thommo as the fastest bowler he ever faced.

 

Yes he had 4 hundreds vs Sylvester Clarke and Norbert Phillip and a raw young Marshall but he also had 2 hundreds and a 90 vs the older great Marshall and co in 1983.

 

Hogg came to India as an all star and Sunny reduced him to a mere mortal in one match. BTW the Sylvester Clarke I saw in Mumbai was real fast as fast as the Bob Willis I saw in Mumbai on 2 occasions or Rod Hogg who was fast too.

 

Sunny struggled against Dennis Lillee and John Snow (who didn't against John Snow at his best!) but then Vishy was horrible vs Pakistan averaging 27 odd or in NZ with 26 odd.

 

Sunny is in many All time XI quoted by Brearley or one by Richie Benaud etc. Vishy?.... not so much.....and neither is Boycott.

 

Your unpopular opinion maybe he is inferior to Boycott.... my unpopular opinion is that he is better than the helmet clad, chest guard clad, this clad, that clad SRT in test cricket.

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by AKane

[SRT100]

Get the feeling, win the toss, win the match.

 

If its a raging turner, batting last will be a nightmare.

 

Also for the love of God, do not ever make Australia follow on under any circumstances. They are waiting for the Kolkata redemption Story.

[zen]

6 hours ago, AKane said:

my unpopular opinion is that he is better than the helmet clad, chest guard clad, this clad, that clad SRT in test cricket.

 

 

If you like Gavaskar, check the thread below:

 

 

[zen]

Since some folks discussed an AT 11, below is my current one: 

 

Batsmen 

Gavaskar - Ind's best test batsman 

Sehwag - Ind's most explosive test opener and a Bradman versus spin 

Pujara - Ind's most impactful test batsman esp. since 1990s 

Tendulkar - Ind's most well rounded multi-format batsman 

Pataudi (c) - Ind's best test captain who played with only one eye ... can play a Kohli or a Dravid or equivalent here 

Pant - Ind's most successful test WK 

Mankad - Ind's best test AR ... Mankad can be slotted anywhere in the batting order - has 100s in Aus & Eng too as an opener iirc

 

Bowlers (no matter what combination one tries, it will fall short of the best attacks relatively speaking)

Bumrah - brings unique set of skills to the table 

Shami - a genuine wicket taker 

3rd pacer - a toss among Srinath, Zak, Kapil (esp. if batting needs to be strengthened at #8), etc.  

A wicket taking wrist spinner - Chandra or Kumble or equivalent

 

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by zen

[LordPrabhzy]

8 hours ago, rollingstoned said:

hazelwood is out of the first test. 

 

Lets see what Boland Tondu does- he was hyped up purely based on his home track bullying.. he will get spanked on Indian pitches.

 

Without Starc and Hazelwood, Australia fans will say India won because of 2nd string aussie bowling line up

[Moochad]

 

I always thought Ashwin had a very unique action, how is Mahesh Pithiya for those who have seen?

[vvvslaxman]

Kane williamson is playing domestic cricket. Wish some of our guys had done that.

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, Moochad said:

 

I always thought Ashwin had a very unique action, how is Mahesh Pithiya for those who have seen?

 

Ashwin can completely modify his action and be successful. He has gone through various actions. 

[vvvslaxman]

15 minutes ago, LordPrabhzy said:

 

Lets see what Boland Tondu does- he was hyped up purely based on his home track bullying.. he will get spanked on Indian pitches.

 

Without Starc and Hazelwood, Australia fans will say India won because of 2nd string aussie bowling line up

 

 

Indian team is like a box of chocolates. you are never going to know what you will get. 

 

 

[R!TTER]

4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Ashwin can completely modify his action and be successful. He has gone through various actions. 

The likes of Jadeja/Ashwin & to a much lesser extent Axar aren't to be judged by their actions, it's their accuracy which is great & that's why they are supremely successful at this level. No copy cat can come close to their accuracy or psychological impact in the middle!

[AKane]

29 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Pataudi (c) - Ind's best test captain who played with only one eye ... can play a Kohli or a Dravid or equivalent here 

 

 

I also think Pataudi and Chandu Borde began the process of  emphasis on fielding. That helped the team a lot. While Borde was an excellent fielder, Pataudi was described as the best fielder in the world by many.

[Gollum]

7 hours ago, AKane said:

 

There's also a reason why Imran, Botham, Willis rate Sunny above Vishy. 

It isn't a clear verdict for Sunny, Roberts and Lillee, two of the pioneers of fast bowling rating Vishy higher must mean something. 

7 hours ago, AKane said:

The same series with Simpson had Jeff Thomson. Sunny had 3 hundreds versus Thommo.  BTW Sunny still rates that Thommo as the fastest bowler he ever faced.

Thommo had lost his express pace by then because of injuries. he was at his fastest in early to mid 70s. 

Anyway it is doubtful if he was better than Pascoe, never mind Lillee. 

 

7 hours ago, AKane said:

Yes he had 4 hundreds vs Sylvester Clarke and Norbert Phillip and a raw young Marshall but he also had 2 hundreds and a 90 vs the older great Marshall and co in 1983.

Sylvester Clarke seriously? That you have to name him to praise Sunny's greatness is a statement in itself. What did he have apart from speed? 

The 1983 series pitches were designed to escape the wrath of WI after the WC win. Some of those pitches would put present Pak pattas to shame.

7 hours ago, AKane said:

Hogg came to India as an all star and Sunny reduced him to a mere mortal in one match. BTW the Sylvester Clarke I saw in Mumbai was real fast as fast as the Bob Willis I saw in Mumbai on 2 occasions or Rod Hogg who was fast too.

Historically Hogg, Clarke are nobodies. Won't make the 4th AT XI of their respective countries. That you have to bring these folks instead of ATGs tells the story, doesn't it?

7 hours ago, AKane said:

Sunny struggled against Dennis Lillee and John Snow (who didn't against John Snow at his best!) but then Vishy was horrible vs Pakistan averaging 27 odd or in NZ with 26 odd.

Vishy suffered at the fag end of his career in Pakistan (his final series before retirement), ok got it. I can take your assessment about him being horrible vs Pak/NZ but that doesn't excuse Sunny being horrible almost every single time he came up against quality bowling/ATGs in live rubbers, non-pattas etc. Doesn't do his reputation a whole lot of good. Better than most batsmen, but for a supposed AT XI contender, bar must be higher.

 

7 hours ago, AKane said:

 

Sunny is in many All time XI quoted by Brearley or one by Richie Benaud etc. Vishy?.... not so much.....and neither is Boycott.

Sunny is overrated. Vishy is rated correctly. That's my whole point.

Have seen Boycott in a few AT XIs as well. 

7 hours ago, AKane said:

 

Your unpopular opinion maybe he is inferior to Boycott.... my unpopular opinion is that he is better than the helmet clad, chest guard clad, this clad, that clad SRT in test cricket

 

Ok cool. Your opinion. IMO Gavaskar owes a lot to Kerry Packer. Still a legend, ATG etc. but most of the myths surrounding him are easy to refute. 

 

My last post on this, we have that Gavaskar thread (by @zen) to continue any discussion. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Gollum

[zen]

31 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

I also think Pataudi and Chandu Borde began the process of  emphasis on fielding. That helped the team a lot. While Borde was an excellent fielder, Pataudi was described as the best fielder in the world by many.

 

Besides fielding and fitness. Pataudi also changed the mindset of Indian players by bringing in the sense of equality (with known white players). He was also the one to promote the spin focused attack (not rank turners though). 

 

 

[AKane]

3 minutes ago, Gollum said:

It isn't a clear verdict for Sunny, Roberts and Lillee, two of the pioneers of fast bowling rating Vishy higher must mean something. 

 

Pioneers of fast bowling? please..... Have you heard of Lindwall, Miller, Davidson, McKenzie? Have you heard of Hall and Griffith?

 

Sunny did not play 3 of 5 matches in 1974-75 due to a Ranji injury in that series vs I think Pandurang Salgaonkar who broke his hand.

 

Yes Sunny had a bad patch in 1981-83  esp after Botham broke his tibia when he hit a cover drive on Sunny at silly point.

 

But for example in 1976 tour of West Indies here are the top run scorers. Holding (3 matches), Roberts (2 matches) and Daniel played that series.

 

Most runs

Player	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
IVA Richards (WI)	4	6	0	556	177	92.66	3	1	0
SM Gavaskar (IND)	4	7	0	390	156	55.71	2	1	0
CH Lloyd (WI)	4	6	0	283	102	47.16	1	2	1
M Amarnath (IND)	4	7	0	279	85	39.85	0	2	0
GR Viswanath (IND)	4	6	0	255	112	42.50	1	1	0

 

 

Compare SRT   performance in 2002 with above against the great and mighty  Mervyn Dillon, Cameron Cuffy , Adam Sanford and Pedro Collins. Series India lost 2-1 like the series in 1976.

 

Most runs

Player	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
CL Hooper (WI)	5	7	0	579	233	82.71	1140	50.78	3	1	0	69	6
S Chanderpaul (WI)	5	7	3	562	140	140.50	1477	38.05	3	3	0	69	0
VVS Laxman (IND)	5	8	2	474	130	79.00	926	51.18	1	4	0	63	0
R Dravid (IND)	5	8	1	404	144*	57.71	1022	39.53	1	2	0	60	0
SR Tendulkar (IND)	5	8	0	331	117	41.37	622	53.21	1	2	3	48	0
SC Ganguly (IND)	5	8	2	322	75*	53.66	747	43.10	0	2	0	35	2

 

 

 

In infamous Kingston test with Holding and Daniel bowling bouncers and beamers with impunity.  Look at Vishy.......

 

India 1st Innings 

BATTING		R	B	M	4s	6s	SR
Sunil Gavaskar	b Holding	66	-	220	9	0	-
Anshuman Gaekwad	retired hurt	81	-	450	-	0	-
Mohinder Amarnath	c Julien b Holding	39	-	-	-	0	-
Gundappa Viswanath	c Julien b Holding	8	-	-	-	0	-
Dilip Vengsarkar	b Holding	39	-	140	-	0	-
Brijesh Patel	retired hurt	14	-	-	-	0	-
Madan Lal	lbw b Daniel	5	-	-	-	0	-
Srinivas Venkataraghavan	lbw b Daniel	9	-	-	-	0	-
Syed Kirmani †	not out	0	-	-	0	0	-
Extras	(b 6, lb 6, nb 21, w 12)	45
TOTAL	104.2 Ov (RR: 2.93)	306/6d

 

India 2nd Innings 

BATTING		R	B	4s	6s	SR
Sunil Gavaskar	c Julien b Holding	2	-	0	0	-
Dilip Vengsarkar	lbw b Jumadeen	21	-	-	0	-
Mohinder Amarnath	st †Murray b Jumadeen	60	-	7	3	-
Madan Lal	b Holding	8	-	-	0	-
Srinivas Venkataraghavan	b Holding	0	-	0	0	-
Syed Kirmani †	not out	0	-	0	0	-
Anshuman Gaekwad	absent hurt	-	-	-	-	-
Gundappa Viswanath	absent hurt	-	-	-	-	-
Brijesh Patel	absent hurt	-	-	-	-	-
Bishan Bedi (c)	absent hurt	-	-	-	-	-
Bhagwath Chandrasekhar	absent hurt	-	-	-	-	-
Extras	(nb 6)	6
TOTAL	26.2 Ov (RR: 3.68)	97

 

 

 

 

 

[R!TTER]

17 minutes ago, AKane said:

Compare SRT   performance in 2002 with above against the great and mighty  Mervyn Dillon, Cameron Cuffy , Adam Sanford and Pedro Collins. Series India lost 2-1 like the series in 1976.

Yes let's compare how sh!t the umpiring was in that series as well, Hooper was run out against Nehra in the Second(3rd?) test, at Barbados, towards the non striker's end & the third umpire - Windian btw, claimed he couldn't see the "line" because of the shadow or sun obscuring his vision 

 

He was at least half a meter short, can you believe that BS 

 

It was also that series where Ridley Jacobs was claiming a bump catch or dodgy stumping as well? I'm sure if you poke enough holes in some's record you can drown the lead balloon of Don as well, just that he played basically 1 (strong) team his entire career & no express pacers like the Windian quartet at their peak!

Edited February 6, 2023 by R!TTER

[AKane]

1 hour ago, R!TTER said:

Yes let's compare how sh!t the umpiring was in that series as well, Hooper was run out against Nehra in the Second(3rd?) test, at Barbados, towards the non striker's end & the third umpire - Windian btw, claimed he couldn't see the "line" because of the shadow or sun obscuring his vision 

 

He was at least half a meter short, can you believe that BS 

 

It was also that series where Ridley Jacobs was claiming a bump catch or dodgy stumping as well? I'm sure if you poke enough holes in some's record you can drown the lead balloon of Don as well, just that he played basically 1 (strong) team his entire career & no express pacers like the Windian quartet at their peak!

 

Welcome to the West Indies where the umpiring was always as bad or worse than Pak. 

 

In Kingston in 1976 where I posted the scorecard for India - in I2 half the Indian team refused to bat as Holding and Daniel were doing beamers and not just bouncers. The umpires let them.......blatantly.

 

They did not try that with Pak because of Imran and Sarfraz.

[zen]

12 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

Welcome to the West Indies where the umpiring was always as bad or worse than Pak. 

 

In Kingston in 1976 where I posted the scorecard for India - in I2 half the Indian team refused to bat as Holding and Daniel were doing beamers and not just bouncers. The umpires let them.......blatantly.

 

They did not try that with Pak because of Imran and Sarfraz.

The point being lost, from the table you posted earlier, is that Laxman, Dravid, & Ganguly still managed to average 50+, while Tendulkar had the lowest average among the 4 at 41. 

It appears as if some delusional fans think only Tendulkar batted for India. 
 

Someone even mentioned his inning against Pak, where he got chances too - Moin missed a straight forward stumping. 

[R!TTER]

29 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

Welcome to the West Indies where the umpiring was always as bad or worse than Pak. 

 

In Kingston in 1976 where I posted the scorecard for India - in I2 half the Indian team refused to bat as Holding and Daniel were doing beamers and not just bouncers. The umpires let them.......blatantly.

 

They did not try that with Pak because of Imran and Sarfraz.

Right, so how does that prove SRT isn't better? Sure helmets have allowed batters to be slightly more "fearless" the counter argument to that is they have (arguably) less time & FoV to watch the ball from the bowler's hand, the grill & helmet on top is hardly the elixir or panacea you're making it out to be - it also has some major disadvantages!