Let’s do a fair assessment of : Ashwin & Jaddu vs. Kumble- Bhajji on Indian pitches.

[rangeelaraja]

Advantage that Ashwin Jaddu have had:

 

- More penetrative  fast bowling support - Bumrah / Shami / Umesh .. Siraj….

it is hard to prove if pitches are more favorable now than then. 
 

but close followers of Indian test cricket would recollect too many pata wickets at the time of Jumbo / Bhajji , where even **** teams used to easily score over 400 - and we had to rely on quick scoring by Sehwag / Gambhir and lower order to force a win. essentially we had to outbat visiting teams mostly. 
 

the one big credit to Ashwin/ Jaddu is that they have collectively decimated Lanka in Lanka winking us series after series - something that Kumble -Bhajji failed to do. They were not super penetrative in Lanka 

 

@vvvslaxman

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by rangeelaraja

[wanted_desi]

I remember Harbhajan being decent till 2005 or so, after that he was more of just a passenger in the team. 

[Texan]

7 minutes ago, wanted_desi said:

I remember Harbhajan being decent till 2005 or so, after that he was more of just a passenger in the team. 

Agreed. Harbhajan was overrated and played far too long despite not being wicket taking. I remember a series in Pakistan where he went wicketless and despite that continued playing for so long.

 

Kumble was a champion bowler. I think more than the pitches, I feel the bigger disadvantage that Kumble had compared to the current lot is DRS. Had DRS been around during Kumble's prime, he would have got so many more LBW decisions than what he did. In the 90s, it was a common practice for batsmen to pad up to balls that pitched outside off and umpires were very reluctant to give LBW decisions. I remember when WI toured in 1994, Jimmy Adams kept padding up to Kumble and getting away with it and ended up scoring a truckload of runs.

 

I think based on the records, I would say Ashwin is probably as good as Kumble in Indian conditions. Jadeja as a pure bowler, would probably be a notch below them, but don't forget Jadeja's contributions with the bat. Harbhajan is several notches below these three and very lucky to even be spoken of in the same breath as these guys.

[vvvslaxman]

31 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

Advantage that Ashwin Jaddu have had:

 

- More penetrative  fast bowling support - Bumrah / Shami / Umesh .. Siraj….

it is hard to prove if pitches are more favorable now than then. 
 

but close followers of Indian test cricket would recollect too many pata wickets at the time of Jumbo / Bhajji , where even **** teams used to easily score over 400 - and we had to rely on quick scoring by Sehwag / Gambhir and lower order to force a win. essentially we had to outbat visiting teams mostly. 
 

the one big credit to Ashwin/ Jaddu is that they have collectively decimated Lanka in Lanka winking us series after series - something that Kumble -Bhajji failed to do. They were not super penetrative in Lanka 

 

@vvvslaxman

 

 

 

 

Harbhajan's effectiveness dwindled once his doosra was banned. It is no secret he had dodgy action and rightfully his action went through scrutiny. He literally had no other skills. Kumble on the other hand at times could bowl seam up deliveries. But he had this limitation of not being able to turn the ball.   Younis Khan worked him out by treating him like a seamer. He literally slog swept everything Kumble thrown at him.  One more thing. Back then India had a lot more back up bowlers.  Look at this match where Kumble got injured. All the 11 players bowled !!  Sachin bowled 34 overs. Laxman bowled 16 overs. 

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-west-indies-2002-62311/west-indies-vs-india-4th-test-63987/full-scorecard

[rangeelaraja]

26 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

 

Harbhajan's effectiveness dwindled once his doosra was banned. It is no secret he had dodgy action and rightfully his action went through scrutiny. He literally had no other skills. Kumble on the other hand at times could bowl seam up deliveries. But he had this limitation of not being able to turn the ball.   Younis Khan worked him out by treating him like a seamer. He literally slog swept everything Kumble thrown at him.  One more thing. Back then India had a lot more back up bowlers.  Look at this match where Kumble got injured. All the 11 players bowled !!  Sachin bowled 34 overs. Laxman bowled 16 overs. 

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-west-indies-2002-62311/west-indies-vs-india-4th-test-63987/full-scorecard

 

Harbhajan has a huge chip on his shoulder ( read jealousy ) with Ashwin usurping his own legacy. 

 

He is always bitter with Ashwins achievements and insinuates that he would have over 600 test wickets easily had if got Ashwin like home wickets 

[Suhaan]

24 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Harbhajan has a huge chip on his shoulder ( read jealousy ) with Ashwin usurping his own legacy. 

 

He is always bitter with Ashwins achievements and insinuates that he would have over 600 test wickets easily had if got Ashwin like home wickets 

It is not like we didn't serve dry pitches ever,even in those he used to get outbowled by other fellow spinners

Remember Amit Misra clearly outbowling him

On top of that despite being a chucker ,he couldn't milk it to wickets

 

He was pretty average

[rangeelaraja]

1 minute ago, Suhaan said:

It is not like we didn't serve dry pitches ever,even in those he used to get outbowled by other fellow spinners

Remember Amit Misra clearly outbowling him

On top of that despite being a chucker ,he couldn't milk it to wickets

 

He was pretty average

 

Pragyan Ojha also outbowled him. 

[speedracer]

2 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

Advantage that Ashwin Jaddu have had:

 

- More penetrative  fast bowling support - Bumrah / Shami / Umesh .. Siraj….

it is hard to prove if pitches are more favorable now than then. 
 

but close followers of Indian test cricket would recollect too many pata wickets at the time of Jumbo / Bhajji , where even **** teams used to easily score over 400 - and we had to rely on quick scoring by Sehwag / Gambhir and lower order to force a win. essentially we had to outbat visiting teams mostly. 
 

the one big credit to Ashwin/ Jaddu is that they have collectively decimated Lanka in Lanka winking us series after series - something that Kumble -Bhajji failed to do. They were not super penetrative in Lanka 

 

@vvvslaxman

 

 

Bhaji is a chucker.

Kumble is a legend. Also drs played a major role. I am sure kumble would have sub 25 average too if he was paired with our world class pace attack and one of jaddu or ash. Kuldeep is kumble esque if not better. Has serious potential in red ball. 

[speedracer]

2 hours ago, Texan said:

Agreed. Harbhajan was overrated and played far too long despite not being wicket taking. I remember a series in Pakistan where he went wicketless and despite that continued playing for so long.

 

Kumble was a champion bowler. I think more than the pitches, I feel the bigger disadvantage that Kumble had compared to the current lot is DRS. Had DRS been around during Kumble's prime, he would have got so many more LBW decisions than what he did. In the 90s, it was a common practice for batsmen to pad up to balls that pitched outside off and umpires were very reluctant to give LBW decisions. I remember when WI toured in 1994, Jimmy Adams kept padding up to Kumble and getting away with it and ended up scoring a truckload of runs.

 

I think based on the records, I would say Ashwin is probably as good as Kumble in Indian conditions. Jadeja as a pure bowler, would probably be a notch below them, but don't forget Jadeja's contributions with the bat. Harbhajan is several notches below these three and very lucky to even be spoken of in the same breath as these guys.

Agre with this.

[neel roy]

7 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Harbhajan has a huge chip on his shoulder ( read jealousy ) with Ashwin usurping his own legacy. 

 

He is always bitter with Ashwins achievements and insinuates that he would have over 600 test wickets easily had if got Ashwin like home wickets 

People forget one thing. In those days BCCI was not unified. They used to have elections for president. There were no ipls and every state association was loggerhead with other. Shahshank Manohar made India lose a test series by preparing a green track in nagpur just to spite Dalmiya. Can you even believe this now. India would have rolled ovetlr Aus in 2004 if BCCI prepared spin pitches and when they finally did in last test it was all done. Now every state association is unified and wants India to win. BCCI keeps them happy with useless t20 matches.. things have changed. In past Captains were terrified of groundsmen and used to be afraid what they ll prepare. I remember there was a bengal groundsman subir mukherjee who was even bigger than dalmiya and he prepared a green track in eden against saf where they thumped us in one test ( 1996 series)..today if you prepare a bad pitch for even a t20 and the captain ( Pandya) just criticises the pitch you are FIRED. Thats the hold BCCI has now on state association and pitches..

[vvvslaxman]

7 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

Harbhajan has a huge chip on his shoulder ( read jealousy ) with Ashwin usurping his own legacy. 

 

He is always bitter with Ashwins achievements and insinuates that he would have over 600 test wickets easily had if got Ashwin like home wickets 

 

Twitter trolling by Yuvi/Bhajji against Ashwin is a well documented fact. There was once Ashwin was PKXI captain and sat Yuvi out after his string of low scores. When reporters asked him whether he was rested Ashwin said he was dropped or something like that. Since then Yuvraj has been bagging Ashwin. Bhajji has his own reasons. So they together constantly try to discredit Ashwin at every chance. But not without consequences. They get trolled by fans.

[vvvslaxman]

6 minutes ago, neel roy said:

People forget one thing. In those days BCCI was not unified. They used to have elections for president. There were no ipls and every state association was loggerhead with other. Shahshank Manohar made India lose a test series by preparing a green track in nagpur just to spite Dalmiya. Can you even believe this now. India would have rolled ovetlr Aus in 2004 if BCCI prepared spin pitches and when they finally did in last test it was all done. Now every state association is unified and wants India to win. BCCI keeps them happy with useless t20 matches.. things have changed. In past Captains were terrified of groundsmen and used to be afraid what they ll prepare. I remember there was a bengal groundsman subir mukherjee who was even bigger than dalmiya and he prepared a green track in eden against saf where they thumped us in one test ( 1996 series)..today if you prepare a bad pitch for even a t20 and the captain ( Pandya) just criticises the pitch you are FIRED. Thats the hold BCCI has now on state association and pitches..

 

That incident was for a specific reason.  Eden gardens behaving like that is not new to us. 1996 world cup, 1999 Test match, 1987 world cup semi final. South Africa was cheered and Graeme smith said that it was like a home ground. Entire state was against INdian side

[rangeelaraja]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Twitter trolling by Yuvi/Bhajji against Ashwin is a well documented fact. There was once Ashwin was PKXI captain and sat Yuvi out after his string of low scores. When reporters asked him whether he was rested Ashwin said he was dropped or something like that. Since then Yuvraj has been bagging Ashwin. Bhajji has his own reasons. So they together constantly try to discredit Ashwin at every chance. But not without consequences. They get trolled by fans.

 

Ashwin should always be in all key strategy meetings in all important series in all formats.

His cricketing and general intelligence is very rare in Indian cricket. 

[vvvslaxman]

6 hours ago, speedracer said:

Bhaji is a chucker.

Kumble is a legend. Also drs played a major role. I am sure kumble would have sub 25 average too if he was paired with our world class pace attack and one of jaddu or ash. Kuldeep is kumble esque if not better. Has serious potential in red ball. 

 

Kumble rarely turned the ball. Kuldeep turns massively. Kuldeep is one of a kind. Wish he had plady more tests for us.

[rangeelaraja]

6 hours ago, speedracer said:

Agre with this.

Are you Jay ?

[neel roy]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

That incident was for a specific reason.  Eden gardens behaving like that is not new to us. 1996 world cup, 1999 Test match, 1987 world cup semi final. South Africa was cheered and Graeme smith said that it was like a home ground. Entire state was against INdian side

1996 w cup : groundsman pleaded before match with azhar to bat first

1996 saf series: eden gardens curator said i ll prepare my own pitch

2005 odi against saf i guess : ganguly not playing

1999 test : that was a good pitch but shoaib was the difference. Those two balls are etched in history and even in his youtube channel..

[vvvslaxman]

10 minutes ago, neel roy said:

1996 w cup : groundsman pleaded before match with azhar to bat first

1996 saf series: eden gardens curator said i ll prepare my own pitch

2005 odi against saf i guess : ganguly not playing

1999 test : that was a good pitch but shoaib was the difference. Those two balls are etched in history and even in his youtube channel..

 

In 1999 that  collision which resulted in Tendulkar being run out which caused a riot. They evacuated the stadium 

[speedracer]

25 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Twitter trolling by Yuvi/Bhajji against Ashwin is a well documented fact. There was once Ashwin was PKXI captain and sat Yuvi out after his string of low scores. When reporters asked him whether he was rested Ashwin said he was dropped or something like that. Since then Yuvraj has been bagging Ashwin. Bhajji has his own reasons. So they together constantly try to discredit Ashwin at every chance. But not without consequences. They get trolled by fans.

Yuvraj was a crap test player. He needs to close his mouth about an AtG ashwin. 

 

Winning odi WC is amazing no doubt but achieving test greatness is much bigger.

[Number]

Different era totally different pitches can't compare the overall effectiveness. 

[Lord]

Ashwin>Kumble>Jaddu>>>Bhajji

 

If you consider batting theres no contest at all.

 

Jaddu can eclipse Kumble if he maintains fitness and form