Top 10 all rounders of all-time

[Majestic]

Considering that we got nothing coming up in next few days, let's do this exercise after the amazing performances of our two all rounders - Ashwin and Jadeja.

 

My top 10 all rounders would be :

 

1. Sobers

2. Imran

3. Kallis

4. Botham

5. Miller

6. Kapil

7. Jadeja

8. Cairns

9. Tony Grieg

10. Stokes/Shakib

 

Others who missed out - Hadlee, Ashwin, S Pollock, Flintoff, Vinoo Mankad, Vettori.

 

Hard to pick between Stokes and Shakib. Stokes was probably the best couple of years ago but these days he has become a specialist captain. Shakib has gone downhill too.

 

Hadlee, Ashwin and S Pollock not really in the genuine A/R category, more in bowling A/R. Flintoff was a genuine A/R but had a short peak with the bowl which was his strong suit. 

 

Apart from these names, can't really think of any other quality test all rounders. Proctor was elite stature wise but didn't played international cricket enough. The likes of Watson, Jayasuriya, Klusenar are LOI greats.

[zen]

[zen]

Once I would pick in tests in the order of preference: 

 

1. Sobers

2. Imran

 

3. Hadlee

4. Kallis

5. Stokes

6. Procter

 

7. Miller

8. Mankad 

9. Pollock

10. Kapil/Botham/Flintoff/...

 

 

PS Kallis & Stokes bowl relatively less overs per inning

Edited February 21, 2023 by zen

[Mariyam]

If Wicket keeping + batting + astute captaincy count, then MSD is a far better all rounder than any of the ones listed above.

[cricspirit]

People will interpret stats differently and many will decide their best by what they see and like.

 

For a while I thought Sobers and Kallis were the best. They are great cricketers who were good in every aspect of the game including fielding. However for both of them the balance was heavy towards batting. They scored so many runs at great average that even with higher bowling average and less 5W hauls they have good difference between batting and bowling average. They were for sure very good bowlers as they took so many wickets. However they get in to the team just for their batting even if they don't bowl. I have not seen sobers but I am not sure if Kallis plays just as a bowler in that SA side. 

 

I am looking to list people who had a better balance and had strong enough impact with bat and ball with some exceptions.  Looking for at least 10 or more 5 wicket hauls  with bowling average below 30 and a batting average of 30 or more with few centuries and 10+ fifties. Cut off of more than 2000 runs and 200 wickets.   

 

1. Ian Botham 

2. Imran Khan

3. Gary Sobers

4. Kapil Dev

5. Keith Miller

6. Jacques Kallis 

7. Ravindra Jadeja

8. Shaun Pollock

9. Richard Hadlee

10. Shakib Al Hasan

 

I liked Chris Cairns a lot and thought he could play for that NZ side as a bowler or batter but he missed out top 10.

 

Stokes is interesting. Mostly regarded the best all rounder of current era. However only has a batting average of 36 after 90 tests while not completing 200 wickets yet. He has only 4 instances of 5 wicket hauls. Both Jadeja and Shakib have vastly superior bowling records while having higher batting average.  I think Flintoff was a better all rounder than stokes. Stokes has played some memorable games which increases his visibility. They both miss my top 10.

 

Someone like Vettori has lot of wickets and good runs. But I think for a while he bowled the bulk of the overs and thus got wickets. He does not get into my top 10. 

 

Edited February 21, 2023 by cricspirit

[singhvivek141]

Shaun Pollock's case is curious, he was always someone who had an amazing ability with the bat.

Deep dive to his stats in Tests and you'll see he carried an average of 40+ in England and Pakistan while averaging 35+ in Australia and NZ. 

 

Unfortunately, just like Kapil he mostly used his batting to become a slogger in the ODI's ( Smith and Kallis were solid batters but weren't aggressive) which had an impact on his overall stats. Not to mention SA needed him more for his bowling once Donald left the scene.

[raki05]

[Chakdephatte]

12 hours ago, Majestic said:

Considering that we got nothing coming up in next few days, let's do this exercise after the amazing performances of our two all rounders - Ashwin and Jadeja.

 

My top 10 all rounders would be :

 

1. Sobers

2. Imran

3. Kallis

4. Botham

5. Miller

6. Kapil

7. Jadeja

8. Cairns

9. Tony Grieg

10. Stokes/Shakib

 

Others who missed out - Hadlee, Ashwin, S Pollock, Flintoff, Vinoo Mankad, Vettori.

 

Hard to pick between Stokes and Shakib. Stokes was probably the best couple of years ago but these days he has become a specialist captain. Shakib has gone downhill too.

 

Kallis was mostly a batsman. His bowling numbers would have looked average had he bowled more often. 

[zen]

in 2020, I had started a thread on test ARs where I had calculated avg # of overs bowled per inning by selected ARs:

 

• Kapil = 20 overs
• Pollock = 20 overs 
• Botham = 22 overs
• Sobers = 23 overs
• Imran = 23 overs
• Hadlee = 24 overs

 

Others

• Stokes = 14 overs 
• Kallis = 13 overs

Edited February 21, 2023 by zen

[Majestic]

15 hours ago, zen said:

Once I would pick in tests in the order of preference: 

 

1. Sobers

2. Imran

 

3. Hadlee

4. Kallis

5. Stokes

6. Procter

 

7. Miller

8. Mankad 

9. Pollock

10. Kapil/Botham/Flintoff/...

 

 

PS Kallis & Stokes bowl relatively less overs per inning

 

1 hour ago, zen said:

in 2020, I had started a thread on test ARs where I had calculated avg # of overs bowled per inning by selected ARs:

 

• Kapil = 20 overs
• Pollock = 20 overs 
• Botham = 22 overs
• Sobers = 23 overs
• Imran = 23 overs
• Hadlee = 24 overs

 

Others

• Stokes = 14 overs 
• Kallis = 13 overs

You need to consider the fact that one of these A/Rs( let's take Kapil as example )played test cricket for 15 years, played 227 innings so he bowled 227*20 balls in 15 years. Similarly compare it to number of bowls bowled by rest.

 

So, when someone plays more because he is the only one carrying that team, this should count for more than someone else who played for like 20 years and hardly bowled for 150 innings. Talking about workload here, not to be confused by quality.

[Mariyam]

15 hours ago, Mariyam said:

If Wicket keeping + batting + astute captaincy count, then MSD is a far better all rounder than any of the ones listed above.

I see a lot of alphanumeric khichdi on this thread but no one has been able to refute my post above^.

 

 

Safe to say that MSD is the greatest all rounder of all time.

 

 

[Majestic]

14 hours ago, cricspirit said:

People will interpret stats differently and many will decide their best by what they see and like.

 

For a while I thought Sobers and Kallis were the best. They are great cricketers who were good in every aspect of the game including fielding. However for both of them the balance was heavy towards batting. They scored so many runs at great average that even with higher bowling average and less 5W hauls they have good difference between batting and bowling average. They were for sure very good bowlers as they took so many wickets. However they get in to the team just for their batting even if they don't bowl. I have not seen sobers but I am not sure if Kallis plays just as a bowler in that SA side. 

 

I am looking to list people who had a better balance and had strong enough impact with bat and ball with some exceptions.  Looking for at least 10 or more 5 wicket hauls  with bowling average below 30 and a batting average of 30 or more with few centuries and 10+ fifties. Cut off of more than 2000 runs and 200 wickets.   

 

1. Ian Botham 

2. Imran Khan

3. Gary Sobers

4. Kapil Dev

5. Keith Miller

6. Jacques Kallis 

7. Ravindra Jadeja

8. Shaun Pollock

9. Richard Hadlee

10. Shakib Al Hasan

 

I liked Chris Cairns a lot and thought he could play for that NZ side as a bowler or batter but he missed out top 10.

 

Stokes is interesting. Mostly regarded the best all rounder of current era. However only has a batting average of 36 after 90 tests while not completing 200 wickets yet. He has only 4 instances of 5 wicket hauls. Both Jadeja and Shakib have vastly superior bowling records while having higher batting average.  I think Flintoff was a better all rounder than stokes. Stokes has played some memorable games which increases his visibility. They both miss my top 10.

 

Someone like Vettori has lot of wickets and good runs. But I think for a while he bowled the bulk of the overs and thus got wickets. He does not get into my top 10. 

 

Interesting list but this seems more about the balanced all rounders rather than the great ones. There is probably a certain criteria that needs to be met to be qualified as all rounder but question is whether statistics is the right way to set that criteria.

 

What about players with inflated stats due to high not outs like Shaun Pollock's batting or if you compare Stokes batting with Jadeja's batting, Stokes is obviously the better batsman with 12 hundreds compared to Jadeja's 3. But statistically, Stokes would get disqualified among great A/R for this reason that his batting stats aren't as impressive for someone's stronger suit.

[Majestic]

2 minutes ago, Mariyam said:

I see a lot of alphanumeric khichdi on this thread but no one has been able to refute my post above^.

 

 

Safe to say that MSD is the greatest all rounder of all time.

 

 

Disqualified since he doesn't have the minimum benchmark of 100 wickets in test cricket.

[zen]

55 minutes ago, Majestic said:

 

You need to consider the fact that one of these A/Rs( let's take Kapil as example )played test cricket for 15 years, played 227 innings so he bowled 227*20 balls in 15 years. Similarly compare it to number of bowls bowled by rest.

 

So, when someone plays more because he is the only one carrying that team, this should count for more than someone else who played for like 20 years and hardly bowled for 150 innings. Talking about workload here, not to be confused by quality.

 

The point of my post was to note how active the ARs were with the ball too. 

 

Workload dynamics can be different for different players as someone could bowl like 15-20 overs and bat for 100 balls on average. 

 

As for Kapil, many times, he hardly bowled in a series esp. when conditions were tough. For e.g. the series against Aus in 1986:

 

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia

Home or away home venue

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1986 and 1 Jan 1988

Ordered by overs bowled (descending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
RJ Shastri	3	5	154.4	38	383	7	2/44	3/211	54.71	2.47	132.5	0	0
NS Yadav	3	5	136.3	25	359	8	4/84	4/136	44.87	2.63	102.3	0	0
Maninder Singh	3	5	130.0	30	352	5	3/60	3/195	70.40	2.70	156.0	0	0
N Kapil Dev	3	5	45.0	12	124	0	-	-	-	2.75	-	0	0
C Sharma	2	3	30.0	2	123	2	1/34	1/34	61.50	4.10	90.0	0	0
RR Kulkarni	1	2	29.0	2	114	3	3/85	3/114	38.00	3.93	58.0	0	0
K Srikkanth	3	3	6.0	0	19	0	-	-	-	3.16	-	0	0

 

 

Above he bowled only 45 overs in 5 innings (and even failed to pick up a wicket so could have gone through the motions), therefore, the workload can balance out. 

 

 

PS and in Eng, he bowled the most overs, while other pacers with better SRs were given relatively less overs:

Primary team India

Opposition team England

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1986 and 1 Jan 1988

Ordered by overs bowled (descending)

 

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
N Kapil Dev	3	6	128.2	36	306	10	4/52	5/119	30.60	2.38	77.0	0	0
Maninder Singh	3	5	114.1	41	187	12	4/26	4/26	15.58	1.63	57.0	0	0
C Sharma	2	4	102.3	20	300	16	6/58	10/188	18.75	2.92	38.4	2	1
RMH Binny	3	6	87.2	11	251	12	5/40	7/58	20.91	2.87	43.6	1	0
RJ Shastri	3	6	80.0	24	161	5	1/5	2/26	32.20	2.01	96.0	0	0
S Madan Lal	1	2	20.5	5	48	3	3/18	3/48	16.00	2.30	41.6	0	0
M Amarnath	2	3	11.0	4	20	0	-	-	-	1.81	-	0	0

 

^ In the case above, his overs are not necessarily helping the team, which has tons of similar options! 

Edited February 21, 2023 by zen

[Vijy]

I would say, among those I have seen:

 

batting ARs: sobers, kallis, late-career Immy, greig

bowling ARs: proctor, pollock, hadlee, early/mid-career Immy

 

"balanced" ARs (no one suit is distinctly stronger even if players were selected more for one role): Miller, Shakib, Faulkner [who I have not seen]

 

botham is special and merits a mention in his own category because he was devastating in first half with both bat and ball; in second half, he was quite useless

 

[Majestic]

On 2/22/2023 at 5:54 AM, Vijy said:

I would say, among those I have seen:

 

batting ARs: sobers, kallis, late-career Immy, greig

bowling ARs: proctor, pollock, hadlee, early/mid-career Immy

 

"balanced" ARs (no one suit is distinctly stronger even if players were selected more for one role): Miller, Shakib, Faulkner [who I have not seen]

 

botham is special and merits a mention in his own category because he was devastating in first half with both bat and ball; in second half, he was quite useless

 

What about the Indian ones?

[cricspirit]

On 2/21/2023 at 2:39 PM, Majestic said:

Interesting list but this seems more about the balanced all rounders rather than the great ones. There is probably a certain criteria that needs to be met to be qualified as all rounder but question is whether statistics is the right way to set that criteria.

 

What about players with inflated stats due to high not outs like Shaun Pollock's batting or if you compare Stokes batting with Jadeja's batting, Stokes is obviously the better batsman with 12 hundreds compared to Jadeja's 3. But statistically, Stokes would get disqualified among great A/R for this reason that his batting stats aren't as impressive for someone's stronger suit.

Not really. The balance perspective is to just show that they are strong in both aspects. 

 

They are all great in their own way. Batters who can bowl and have taken lot of wickets did not get to the top of the list. Botham was a complete all rounder and takes higher place than Sobers. Imran may be can move a bit lower but these are what I think are my Top 10.

 

I have watched enough of Shaun pollock. He was a very good batter who did not do justice to his batting talent Just like Kapil did not use his batting talent to the full. Stokes get to bat more from the start compared to Jadeja who is getting more batting now. Agree that Stokes is a better batsman but Jadeja is a better bowler. Stokes despite his 12 hundreds has a lower average. The thing you need to see is Stokes bats no.5 and 6 for bulk of his runs which gives him more chances to score hundreds. He has batted double the amount of innings that Jadeja has. Jaddu got most of his runs lower at no.7 and no.8 often running out of partners. End of the day the 37 runs per Innings that Jadeja got are probably as important or more for India given our frequent top order collapse.  Stokes gets a bit over 2 wickets per match while Jadeja gets 4 wickets per match 8 point better average while adding same amount of runs. He is above Stokes as an allrounder in my book. Rarely for an Indian player, he is even a better fielder than most others even though Stokes and others are very good in their own right. 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by cricspirit

[Vijy]

On 2/22/2023 at 11:31 PM, Majestic said:

What about the Indian ones?

well, I would classify kapil, jaddu, asswin as bowling AR; no batting AR worth mentioning; and I would call mankad a balanced AR

[Majestic]

21 hours ago, Vijy said:

well, I would classify kapil, jaddu, asswin as bowling AR; no batting AR worth mentioning; and I would call mankad a balanced AR

In Kapil's case, consider his runs per innings.

Also, Jadeja has been pretty good with bat since 2016 now.

 

While rating someone like Shakib, consider the oppositions in his case especially while comparing to Jadeja or Stokes. Shakib has never played in Australia. He plays for Bangladesh so he will get to play more games vs Windies or Zimbabwe than in Australia/England/South Africa.

[Lord]

On 2/21/2023 at 10:00 AM, Mariyam said:

If Wicket keeping + batting + astute captaincy count, then MSD is a far better all rounder than any of the ones listed above.

and looks