When will a Indian Team management understand the value of a Fast Bowler?

[Malcolm Merlyn]

41 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I would not call Tyagi an express bowler. He is fast medium. Tyagi is very talented, I sincerely hope he is not lost as he has all the tools  but he will not blow away anyone with his pace.

 

 

 

A bowler bowling in excess of 145ks is fast medium?

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, Malcolm Merlyn said:

 

A bowler bowling in excess of 145ks is fast medium?

How long will he sustain that speed? How many overs?

[zen]

The issue is the short-term focus. Every year there is some type of ICC event that the team is building toward so it takes the easier route to field in players in form or experience who can hit the ground running. Now even tests have WTC tagged on to them. 

 

For youngsters, it is a challenge to not only be relatively more consistent but also try to hit the ground running as quickly as possible. 

 

Rather than being ICC events focused, it is time to take a step back and look to develop the team with a relatively long-term focus. 

 

[singhvivek141]

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

How long will he sustain that speed? How many overs?

He sustains his pace in 50 over format,....he did play VHT last year and was hurrying the batters. 

 

Ofcourse bowlers won't always need to go flat out in longer formats, but they should be able to crank up when neede...Steyn was a prime example who can up his pace from 135 to 145 with the old ball.

Even Umesh had the ability in 2010-2017 to crank up his pace in late 140's when bowl starts to reverse. Siraj and Bumrah also do it....Shami operates on a lower pace in general but he doesn't drop much pace.

In comparison, like of Bhuvi, Avesh or Thakur who have poor fitness and stamina can't up their speed even if they want while bowling longer spells.

 

[AKane]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

In comparison, like of Bhuvi, Avesh or Thakur who have poor fitness and stamina can't up their speed even if they want while bowling longer spells.

In defense of Thakur - he rarely gets the ball until it is near 25 overs old. Now I understand Bumrah and Shami are much better than Roberts and Holding and Thakur is no Croft or Garner but still..... 

 

I have checked when Bumrah gave Thakur the ball in the Eng 5th test and  also the recent WTC final by Rohit.

[singhvivek141]

10 hours ago, AKane said:

In defense of Thakur - he rarely gets the ball until it is near 25 overs old. Now I understand Bumrah and Shami are much better than Roberts and Holding and Thakur is no Croft or Garner but still..... 

 

I have checked when Bumrah gave Thakur the ball in the Eng 5th test and  also the recent WTC final by Rohit.

That's because he plays as 4th seamer/bowling allrounder and tbf he is doing decent job, if he play as 3rd seamer he will get the bowl early but his drop in pace will be more.

Edited July 9, 2023 by singhvivek141

[AKane]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

That's because he plays as 4th seamer/bowling allrounder

Fair enough.... and I have admitted the large superiority of Bumrah and Shami over Roberts and Holding and the fact that Thakur is no where near the 4th seamer in Croft or Garner...... But still 25th or 30+ overs?

[Adamant]

Mark Wood, a 32 averaging test bowler is now the messiah, the only reason being that he bowl 150kph.

 

Yes,we shouldn’t select Mukesh and Unadkat but still the likes of Siraj,Prasidh are way better than Mark Wood.

we don’t need a 150kph bowler in tests for sure

[Malcolm Merlyn]

How long will he sustain that speed? How many overs?

Don't change the goal post. You said Tyagi is medium, he isn't.


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[Majestic]

32 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Mark Wood, a 32 averaging test bowler is now the messiah, the only reason being that he bowl 150kph.

 

Yes,we shouldn’t select Mukesh and Unadkat but still the likes of Siraj,Prasidh are way better than Mark Wood.

we don’t need a 150kph bowler in tests for sure

Wood has an average of 29 in Tests now. He has been excellent in last two years. He had some issues with his run up and injuries but that was past. 

 

Prasidh is 27( Wood debuted in 2015 so he was 25 then) and yet to be debuted. We don't know how he is bowling after his 1 year long injury . Bumrah is also injury prone which leaves us with Siraj only. We clearly need two more quality pacer who are 25 or below, not injury prone and has the skill sets required to succeed.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Majestic

[deepdynamo]

India did well in test cricket in the last decade or so because of 6 quality 'different' bowlers which never happened in Indian history. They all played in the same era and improved overseas results.

Ishant - Tall, bouncy, hit the deck, big inswing
Bhuvi- Swing king in his prime

Umesh - hit the deck and reverse swing
Shami- pin point seam bowler with good pace
Bumrah- Generation bowler with all skills
Siraj- skiddy, good pace, intense

Now problem is Bhuvi, Ishant and Umesh are all gone.

Bumrah is on stretcher.

Shami is a grandpa now.

We desperately need new fast bowlers otherwise its going to be massacre in next overseas assignment.

 

 

 

[wazza]

19 minutes ago, deepdynamo said:

India did well in test cricket in the last decade or so because of 6 quality 'different' bowlers which never happened in Indian history. They all played in the same era and improved overseas results.

Ishant - Tall, bouncy, hit the deck, big inswing
Bhuvi- Swing king in his prime

Umesh - hit the deck and reverse swing
Shami- pin point seam bowler with good pace
Bumrah- Generation bowler with all skills
Siraj- skiddy, good pace, intense

Now problem is Bhuvi, Ishant and Umesh are all gone.

Bumrah is on stretcher.

Shami is a grandpa now.

We desperately need new fast bowlers otherwise its going to be massacre in next overseas assignment.

 

 

 

We literally have 5 or 6 bowlers ready to make the leap. The old guard just needs to leave. They just need chances. 

[singhvivek141]

2 hours ago, AKane said:

Fair enough.... and I have admitted the large superiority of Bumrah and Shami over Roberts and Holding and the fact that Thakur is no where near the 4th seamer in Croft or Garner...... But still 25th or 30+ overs?

Can it be because we have empty cupboard of pace bowling allrounders ?

 

Hardik don't play Tests, Chahar is the only one apart from Thakur (atleast in eyes of mgmt) but he is too injury prone. So mgmt don't want to injure Thakur as well by overbowling him.

 

That's where likes of Bawa, Hangargekar or Yudhvir can come in handy. 

[singhvivek141]

2 hours ago, AKane said:

Fair enough.... and I have admitted the large superiority of Bumrah and Shami over Roberts and Holding and the fact that Thakur is no where near the 4th seamer in Croft or Garner...... But still 25th or 30+ overs?

Can it be because we have empty cupboard of pace bowling allrounders ?

 

Hardik don't play Tests, Chahar is the only one apart from Thakur (atleast in eyes of mgmt) but he is too injury prone. So mgmt don't want to injure Thakur as well by overbowling him.

 

That's where likes of Bawa, Hangargekar or Yudhvir can come in handy. 

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, Majestic said:

Wood has an average of 29 in Tests now. He has been excellent in last two years. He had some issues with his run up and injuries but that was past. 

 

Prasidh is 27( Wood debuted in 2015 so he was 25 then) and yet to be debuted. We don't know how he is bowling after his 1 year long injury . Bumrah is also injury prone which leaves us with Siraj only. We clearly need two more quality pacer who are 25 or below, not injury prone and has the skill sets required to succeed.

 

 

That will happen if we don't rotate the bowlers, specially the fast ones will get injured often as stress load on their body will be higher.

We need to STOP looking for all format bowlers...no more than 2 format (plus IPL).

 

For ex. Umran can play T20 and ODI, Siraj in Tests and ODI, Bumrah in Tests and T20...similarly for Shami, Tyagi, Prasidh, Harshit, Sen.

[putrevus]

21 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

He sustains his pace in 50 over format,....he did play VHT last year and was hurrying the batters. 

 

Ofcourse bowlers won't always need to go flat out in longer formats, but they should be able to crank up when neede...Steyn was a prime example who can up his pace from 135 to 145 with the old ball.

Even Umesh had the ability in 2010-2017 to crank up his pace in late 140's when bowl starts to reverse. Siraj and Bumrah also do it....Shami operates on a lower pace in general but he doesn't drop much pace.

In comparison, like of Bhuvi, Avesh or Thakur who have poor fitness and stamina can't up their speed even if they want while bowling longer spells.

 

Let him sustain his pace for a season before say he has arrived. He still is injury free season away from making any impact.' Steyn had a deadly outswinger combined with his pace made him ATG fast bowler.Yes he did have ability to crank his speed up when it was needed.

 

I don't think any Siraj has that ability to crank his pace up.His pace is already medium pace so him cranking his speed up will not make any batsman worry about his pace.

 

 

There is no out and out pacer like Wood in India other than Umran but Umran has regressed a lot rather progessing.

 

Bumrah needs to stay injury free first to create impact.

Edited July 9, 2023 by putrevus

[AKane]

7 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Can it be because we have empty cupboard of pace bowling allrounders ?

I think it is because Bumrah and Shami hogged the new ball..... with Bumrah as captain. BTW we lost that test.

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by AKane

[AKane]

11 hours ago, Adamant said:

Mark Wood, a 32 averaging test bowler is now the messiah, the only reason being that he bowl 150kph.

Brett Lee averaged 30.81 . Unless the average is ridiculous like Mohammad Sami's, there is a value to extreme pace bowlers  that is not easily measurable.

 

Given a choice between the magnificent Bhuvaneshwar/Ollie Robinson  and the expensive Mark Wood, I will pick Wood. Different strokes for different folks.

Edited July 9, 2023 by AKane

[Sooda]

On 7/8/2023 at 1:21 PM, putrevus said:

People are going gaga over Mark Wood, he is 33 and he has played 28 tests.

 

India always had 135-140 kind of bowlers.That is what we have right now. Who are those bowlers other than Umran who can bowl over 145 consistently.

 

 

Indian TM understands the importance of  fast bowlers but they did not have anyone as skillfull as Bumrah in all formats  so he was playing all formats, yet he was given ample breaks.

 

People are under some illusion that there are number of express bowlers who have been left out or mismanaged.

 

A guy like Prasidh Krishna was huffing and puffing in an ODI was bowling in 130s in odis. and has played 11 FC in 8 years.He is not express by any means.

 

Coaching might have been a problem after Arun left the team.

 

 

 

 

 

yes...

 

The management have given opportunities when and where they can to the likes of Umran, Prasidh, Sen...  we arent blessed with a huge number of genuine quicks by any means

[wazza]

6 hours ago, AKane said:

Brett Lee averaged 30.81 . Unless the average is ridiculous like Mohammad Sami's, there is a value to extreme pace bowlers  that is not easily measurable.

 

Given a choice between the magnificent Bhuvaneshwar/Ollie Robinson  and the expensive Mark Wood, I will pick Wood. Different strokes for different folks.

honestly in a better fielding team, mo sami's average would be 30. he was actually pretty good. so many dropped catches lol. kamran lol.