To all the naysayers who say that part time spinners don't work in ODI's anymore......

[Nikhil_cric]

This myth needs to be busted and flushed down the toilet but it keeps getting persisted with just to select spinners who can't bat to save their lives.

 

Some things to consider.

 

Spin is employed mostly in overs 11-40.

 

ODI's use 2 balls and since July 2015, only 4 outfielders are allowed in these overs but 5 are allowed at the death(41-50)

 

Let us compare how seamers and spinners have done in this phase since July 2015 and onwards in India since World Cup is in India and India is supposedly a spin friendly venue.  For the comparison, I have only considered performances against top ODI teams - SA,OZ,NZ, ENG.   These are also SENA nations that supposedly play spin poorly. The likes of BD and Sl will prefer to face spin anyway so using pace against them is a no-brainer.

 

Here is what I found

 

Pacers	Wickets	Average	Economy rate
Umesh	5	14.8	4.35
Siraj	4	15.5	4.89
Prasidh	5	17.4	6.21
Shardul	14	19	5.54
Shami	9	20.33	5.28
Bhuvaneshwar	8	29.13	5.83
Pandya	18	31.33	5.88
Spinners
Mishra	14	22.71	4.75
Kuldeep	30	35.43	5.88
Washi	4	36	6.86
Jadhav	10	40	5.35
Jadeja	13	41	4.84
Chahal	8	43.5	5.35
Axar	10	50.34	4.83
Ashwin	3	57	6.25

 

 

 

Bhuvi and Umesh are done at this level but just looking at all the seamers' numbers in the middle overs in India against SENA countries shows that they are easily, unequivocally better than the spinners we have or we are considering.

 

So PACE works better than SPIN not only upfront in the Powerplay but also through the biggest phase which is the middle phase even in a supposedly spin-friendly venue like India against supposedly weak players of spin like SENA.

 

 

What is even more evident is that the 3rd best spinner we have had in this phase was Kedar Jadhav - the last part time spinner we employed. 

 

How can anyone say that part-time spinners are much worse than specialist spinners like Chahal or even spin allrounders like Axar/Jadeja? 

 

We haven't even tried anyone since Jadhav, lol.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rkt.india]

Sundar is the part-time spinner we tried.

[Nikhil_cric]

6 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Sundar is the part-time spinner we tried.

 

I'm talking about batters who bowl part-time spin. Sundar is a bowler first.

[AuxiliA]

Not having a proper batting AR has been a major reason why we haven't won any ICC tournament for a decade. 

 

Batting ARs are much more valuable than bowling AR in Limited overs Cricket. They allow us to have atleast 7 proper batters at the same time providing cover for the bowlers. 

 

The opposite is true for Tests where Bowling ARs are much more valuable. Luckily we have had a few really good ones( Jadeja,Ashwin and even Axar & Thakur on their days) over the last decade and that's why we did well in Tests.

 

 

[MediumPacer]

So few wickets for spinners in all these years!

 

So Chahal gets most of his wickets either in the 1st or the last 10?

[MediumPacer]

so it only SA,OZ,NZ, ENG.

[Sooda]

2 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

 

I'm talking about batters who bowl part-time spin. Sundar is a bowler first.

Don't think Sundar himself knows what he is first

[rkt.india]

3 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

 

I'm talking about batters who bowl part-time spin. Sundar is a bowler first.

Sundar is a batsman first, not bowler.

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, AuxiliA said:

Not having a proper batting AR has been a major reason why we haven't won any ICC tournament for a decade. 

 

Batting ARs are much more valuable than bowling AR in Limited overs Cricket. They allow us to have atleast 7 proper batters at the same time providing cover for the bowlers. 

 

The opposite is true for Tests where Bowling ARs are much more valuable. Luckily we have had a few really good ones( Jadeja,Ashwin and even Axar & Thakur on their days) over the last decade and that's why we did well in Tests.

 

 

Incorrect. Bowling alrounders are much more crucial. Bowlers who can contribute with the bat like Moeen, Rashid, Wood, Woakes for England. Starc, Cummins for Australia. Bowling alrounders allow teams to bat deep. One batting alrounder is enough. There aren't many batting alrounders in any international team currently. Stokes for England, Pandya for India, Mitch Marsh for Australia.

[Nikhil_cric]

3 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Incorrect. Bowling alrounders are much more crucial. Bowlers who can contribute with the bat like Moeen, Rashid, Wood, Woakes for England. Starc, Cummins for Australia. Bowling alrounders allow teams to bat deep. One batting alrounder is enough. There aren't many batting alrounders in any international team currently. Stokes for England, Pandya for India, Mitch Marsh for Australia.

 

First of all, Moeen is not a bowling all-rounder. They value his runs and then his bowling in LOI's.   Starc and Cummins are not all-rounders. They usually make the ream on their bowling alone.  Same with Woakes who was the best PP bowler in the world before 2019 WC.  He wasn't selected for his batting. 

 

All the names you have mentioned make the team on their primary skill alone. Stokes maybe the only exception to that because he has declined but even he will mostly be in for his batting. 

 

Pandya won't make it purely for his bowling meaning you cannot get 10 overs out of him and he's not exceptionally proficient with either the new ball or through the middle.  Marsh makes it purely as a top-order batter now. 

 

There aren't any true batting allrounders(Moeen comes closest) , but all teams have a proper batter who can bowl 4-5 overs of good defensive off-spin atleast (Markram, Bracewell, Maxwell, DDS, Agha Salman, Root/Livingston etc.)   We don't have a single batsman who offers that and that truly destroys the balance of this side.

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

19 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Sundar is a batsman first, not bowler.

No he is not. Not in LOI's. A case can be made for a Test match number 6/7.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Nikhil_cric

[tweaker]

We didnt had batsman who could bowl for a longer duration 

 

Now we have Jaiswal, Rinku,Tilak,but it is too late to try them in an important tournament.

 

When Rahul ,Iyer were injured and Surya was not able to adapt to odi,the selectors didnt had foresight and select such  players.

 

 

[tapandrun]

Right now any offspinner in the team has to be fulltime batter like Ali of Eng.

 

The problem with Ind parttime bowler is they are not confident enough of their front line bowlers if they can hold-up batters in the last 4/5 overs, giving away 20/22 runs in 1 over has become a custom to Ind bowlers in slog overs and if you add another 20+ over in the middle from a parttimmer you are looking at something near 200/210 score which is well outside ind batting lineups comfort range.

 

[putrevus]

Batting allrounders will never work. They need bowling allrounders which will lengthen the lineup.

 

Pandya is there as batting allrounder. Why need more?

[bowl_out]

7 hours ago, Sooda said:

Don't think Sundar himself knows what he is first

And that is the kind that is the most annoying. The likes of Washington, Stuart Binny, Reetinder Singh Sodhi and to some extent Hardik Pandya in the longer formats.. They don't know what they are and don't have a primary role assigned. Players like Yuvraj, Ganguly, Sachin were primarily batsmen who could contribute with the ball.. The likes of Bhuvi, Ashwin, Thakur, Axar are primarily bowlers who can contribute with the bat.

 

I don't know what is Sundar

[Frustrated]

8 hours ago, Sooda said:

Don't think Sundar himself knows what he is first

Sundar is young.  And can work on his game.  But the hype he gets on ICF is insane. (Despite his mediocre performances in most outings)

[tweaker]

7 hours ago, tapandrun said:

Right now any offspinner in the team has to be fulltime batter like Ali of Eng.

 

The problem with Ind parttime bowler is they are not confident enough of their front line bowlers if they can hold-up batters in the last 4/5 overs, giving away 20/22 runs in 1 over has become a custom to Ind bowlers in slog overs and if you add another 20+ over in the middle from a parttimmer you are looking at something near 200/210 score which is well outside ind batting lineups comfort range.

 

Riyan Parag has done good work with both bat and bowl this se also,hope he does every well this Ranji season  

[tapandrun]

1 hour ago, tweaker said:

Riyan Parag has done good work with both bat and bowl this se also,hope he does every well this Ranji season  

He has added bowling similar to S.Raza(Zim) but his batting is not solid enough against 140+kmph.

[tweaker]

2 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

He has added bowling similar to S.Raza(Zim) but his batting is not solid enough against 140+kmph.

He has performed really well with both bat and ball in recent Deodhar Trophy.

 

He has 2 hundreds and 95 in the final ,playing for East side.

 

He has also taken 11 wickets and also fielded well. 

[Sooda]

5 hours ago, bowl_out said:

And that is the kind that is the most annoying. The likes of Washington, Stuart Binny, Reetinder Singh Sodhi and to some extent Hardik Pandya in the longer formats.. They don't know what they are and don't have a primary role assigned. Players like Yuvraj, Ganguly, Sachin were primarily batsmen who could contribute with the ball.. The likes of Bhuvi, Ashwin, Thakur, Axar are primarily bowlers who can contribute with the bat.

 

I don't know what is Sundar

 

4 hours ago, Frustrated said:

Sundar is young.  And can work on his game.  But the hype he gets on ICF is insane. (Despite his mediocre performances in most outings)

 

Agree

 

He could and should be a valuable LOI option offers depth in batting and variety in bowling. Injuries have really set him back

Edited August 22, 2023 by Sooda