Off spin

[mani sha]

Biggest concern I have is lack of off spin all rounder . 
 

Sundar was a perfect candidate for World Cup . Bowls in power plays , can bat very well and is fit . What is the reason behind axar and jadeja both in team for World Cup . It does not make sense .

 

tilak Verma at best bowls ok but sundar imo is a v v good bowler 

 

most teams have tonnes of left handers . Seems like this is a glaring error in selection . 

[Gollum]

Redundant, dying art. Sundar is overrated in white ball formats, Ashwin even at this age offers more than him, but we can't go back in time. Hopefully Tilak can do a Maxwell. 

[tweaker]

Instead of Axar ,Ashwin should have been in the squad. He could have even make it in the place of any of 6 man pace attack or 3 wicket keeper batsman

[Nikhil_cric]

I can't believe there are people calling for Ashwin in the squad. He'd be a complete waste of space.

 

Off spin died between the stringent rules on chucking, the 2 new ball rule and the 4 outfielders in middle overs rule. 

 

The best ODI offspinner since 2015 has been Moeen Ali and he is selected for his clean striking.   Also has a terrible record in India.

 

Tilak Varma will only be slightly worse than any specialist offspinner. 

[mani sha]

Having seem sundar bowl well in t20 , odi will likely be even more suited . 
 

pitches in subcontinent help slower bowlers and having off spinners who can bat well is as imp as having left arm spinners like jadeja 

 

i am questioning logic of both jadeja and axar In team . 
 

I am pretty confident that off spin will come into play in the World Cup 

[vvvslaxman]

Sundar batting has to go up a notch to be part of XI. Having said that India has completely shielded Axar for almost entire match just because there was a left hander batting. Jadejas marginal mythical all round.ability never helped us but for the semifinal. Most of the offies have extra skills. Nabi, Theekshana, Mujeeb can bowl seam up stuffs, in some cases carrom.ball. sundar has definitely worked.on a loopy delivery that stops. Execution is still WIP. 

[Nikhil_cric]

36 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Sundar batting has to go up a notch to be part of XI. Having said that India has completely shielded Axar for almost entire match just because there was a left hander batting. Jadejas marginal mythical all round.ability never helped us but for the semifinal. Most of the offies have extra skills. Nabi, Theekshana, Mujeeb can bowl seam up stuffs, in some cases carrom.ball. sundar has definitely worked.on a loopy delivery that stops. Execution is still WIP. 

Nabi, Theekshana, and Mujeeb not only have mystery but they have bowled primarily in places like SL, UAE, BD. These countries still have the kind of pitches that aid fast off-spin. The top 6 nations very rarely produce such pitches. Indian pitches are a 'mare for offspinners. As are Pakistani pitches.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

4 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Nabi, Theekshana, and Mujeeb not only have mystery but they have bowled primarily in places like SL, UAE, BD. These countries still have the kind of pitches that aid fast off-spin. The top 6 nations very rarely produce such pitches. Indian pitches are a 'mare for offspinners. As are Pakistani pitches.

 

 

 

Technically there is no real difference between off spinner or left arm orthodox. Off spinners are less scary because most teams have right handers. But if you run into team that has a lot of lefties offie is an option. After all Ashwin came to limelight by bowling first over to Gayle. He has dismissed him 5 times or so inside power play. Sundar also became prominent by bowling inside power play. In Subcontinent pitches all  spinners get purchase. There is no stat that say only leggies get purchase. Shakib has been successful for more than 15 years despite all the rule changes.

 

Few yeasr back Mehidy Hasan opened the bowling for Bangladesh at Abu Dhabhi while defending 239. Finished with 2-28 in 10 overs. 

 

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/asia-cup-2018-1153237/bangladesh-vs-pakistan-6th-match-super-four-1153254/full-scorecard

 

Bottomline is it is better to have all the options at your disposal if possible.  You would want 2 leggies in the side one of them being an useful batsman.  Apart from Shadab i don't see any leg spinning all rounder. but in one dayers he is not as effective as he is in T20 as he is not really skillful to beat batsmen in flight. Axar and Jadeja two identical guys.  Axar is less trustworthy given his limitations although he can hit better. Jadeja has a ceiling beyond which he cannot contribute.

 

 

[Lord]

7 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Sundar batting has to go up a notch to be part of XI. Having said that India has completely shielded Axar for almost entire match just because there was a left hander batting. Jadejas marginal mythical all round.ability never helped us but for the semifinal. Most of the offies have extra skills. Nabi, Theekshana, Mujeeb can bowl seam up stuffs, in some cases carrom.ball. sundar has definitely worked.on a loopy delivery that stops. Execution is still WIP. 

 

Sundar needs to be stronger to be a hitter . Offspin he has no variety too.Needs to develop variations like Ashwin.

 

Jadeja gets the edge purely coz of fielding otherwise all are same. 

[vvvslaxman]

12 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Sundar needs to be stronger to be a hitter . Offspin he has no variety too.Needs to develop variations like Ashwin.

 

Jadeja gets the edge purely coz of fielding otherwise all are same. 

 

But i have to say if we strictly talk about defensive bowling offies can be a good option. Leggies are a double edged sword. On a flat wicket with not much turn if they run into someone like Klassen it will be a nightmare compartively. Quality matters

 

Chahal vs Klassen in T20

 

34 balls 80 runs

 

Kuldeep vs Klassen in T20

 

12 balls 11 runs

[singhvivek141]

14 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Sundar needs to be stronger to be a hitter . Offspin he has no variety too.Needs to develop variations like Ashwin.

 

Jadeja gets the edge purely coz of fielding otherwise all are same. 

This, Ashwin can be a guide to Sundar.

I think Ashwin can be a very good bowling coach, he is intelligent and understand bowling quite well, him and Sundar speak the same language so that's a big advantage as well.

[Lord]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

But i have to say if we strictly talk about defensive bowling offies can be a good option. Leggies are a double edged sword. On a flat wicket with not much turn if they run into someone like Klassen it will be a nightmare compartively. Quality matters

 

Chahal vs Klassen in T20

 

34 balls 80 runs

 

Kuldeep vs Klassen in T20

 

12 balls 11 runs

 

Offspin on a flat wicket will be bashed even harder unless they have variations.Chahal is not a barometer of any leggie. Kuldeep has done well v most batsmen

[vvvslaxman]

12 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Offspin on a flat wicket will be bashed even harder unless they have variations.Chahal is not a barometer of any leggie. Kuldeep has done well v most batsmen

 

Not if they bowl to left handers.  Moeen has a better strike rate against guys like Kuldeep, Shadab compared to an offie like Ashwin or even Sundar.

[tapandrun]

off spinner these days has to be a batter to make into playing 11. No team is carrying a specialist off spinner now.

 

Either they have to be like Mujeeb, Theekshana - mystery spinner or a proper batter who can bowl like Ali.

No team can risk an off spinner to a right handed batter and left arm orthodox against a left handed batter.

 

[Lord]

25 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Not if they bowl to left handers.  Moeen has a better strike rate against guys like Kuldeep, Shadab compared to an offie like Ashwin or even Sundar.

 

Kuldeep was in terrible form when Moeen hit him. Shadab is leggie.

 

Guys like Sundar can at best be support bowler and bowl a spell of 50 for 0 or 1 wicket. That's not enough unless you are a reliable bat first.

 

Our best bet is to have guys like Tilak,Jaiswal develop their bowling as they will anyway make the team on batting.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Lord

[Gollum]

Ashwin's white ball career is done, some of you need to make peace with it.

 

Outrage over the fact that he has been dropped for 6 consecutive tests in England, but not about white ball selection. Former was unfair, latter is delusional thinking.

[mani sha]

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

Ashwin's white ball career is done, some of you need to make peace with it.

 

Outrage over the fact that he has been dropped for 6 consecutive tests in England, but not about white ball selection. Former was unfair, latter is delusional thinking.

Post is for sundar to be there in place of axar 

 

having sundar as an option against Aussies and / or New Zealand who have so many left bats is a good idea 

 

ashwin still is a dark horse .. 

[vvvslaxman]

27 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Kuldeep was in terrible form when Moeen hit him. Shadab is leggie.

 

Guys like Sundar can at best be support bowler and bowl a spell of 50 for 0 or 1 wicket. That's not enough unless you are a reliable bat first.

 

Our best bet is to have guys like Tilak,Jaiswal develop their bowling as they will anyway make the team on batting.

 

It has to be horse for courses. Sundar is not competing against Rashid Khan. He is competing with Axar who is no different from Jadeja. If a side has 3 or 4 lefties in the top order having 3 left arm spinners in the side is not ideal. You need an option somewhere. What is the difference between Axar and Sundar in ODI with respect to batting or bowling. I say not much.  If anything Sundar can be a bit more creative with batting and can score better against pace.  Axar averages 13 against pace in ODIs. Sundar averages 40 against pace albeit at a slightly low strike rate 102 vs 93.

[Gollum]

Also after the T20 season of 2022, Ashwin struggled with the ball even on those Bangla pitches, just didn't operate like a test bowler. Not easy switching between formats. Guy is 37, let him focus on tests, maybe one more WTC cycle. India needs to move away from 2/3 format players.

[Lord]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

It has to be horse for courses. Sundar is not competing against Rashid Khan. He is competing with Axar who is no different from Jadeja. If a side has 3 or 4 lefties in the top order having 3 left arm spinners in the side is not ideal. You need an option somewhere. What is the difference between Axar and Sundar in ODI with respect to batting or bowling. I say not much.  If anything Sundar can be a bit more creative with batting and can score better against pace.  Axar averages 13 against pace in ODIs. Sundar averages 40 against pace albeit at a slightly low strike rate 102 vs 93.

 

Yeah, I want Sundar to replace Axar too for variety. But still he'll remain a backup to Jaddu.

 

To be in first XI, he has to either increase hitting or develop variations. Is an average fielder too generally so that goes against him.