Should we bring back Ashwin?

[Norman]

2 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Conditions will help Ashwin this time.

 

Bro there's a reason why we never picked Ashwin for even home ODIs since 2017.  It'd be foolish to go back to the same oldies from whom we know what to expect.

[Nikhil_cric]

7 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

I also want a wicket taking pacer for Thakur. But for spin, Shreyas doesnt bowl and Tilak is not in the side yet for his batting. Tilak and Jaiswal will be great after WC but for now there is no choice. Also Hardik even if he bowls 6 and Shreyas/Tilak bowl 4, thats still only 5 bowling options. There's no room if one of main bowlers get whacked/injured. Ideally you need 6 bowling options with 5th-6th capable of bowling atleast 6-7 overs each.

You cannot plan for that. All you can do is make sure all your bowlers who are selected are match fit and can give you 40 overs.  If your main bowlers are getting hit, there is no guarantee that the extra all rounder won't get hit and you lose a batsman who can help your chase as well. 

 

If we keep extending that logic, we'll end up playing 7 bowlers for the next World Cup. 

 

Spinners rarely get injured. So two are enough. Shardul can stay but Axar has to go for a fast bowler. 

 

Ideally I'd want someone in for SKY like Tilak but if not both SKY and Shreyas have to offer overs. 

 

Tail beginning at 7 cannot continue. Batting depth is more important than bowling depth. 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

7 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

I also want a wicket taking pacer for Thakur. But for spin, Shreyas doesnt bowl and Tilak is not in the side yet for his batting. Tilak and Jaiswal will be great after WC but for now there is no choice. Also Hardik even if he bowls 6 and Shreyas/Tilak bowl 4, thats still only 5 bowling options. There's no room if one of main bowlers get whacked/injured. Ideally you need 6 bowling options with 5th-6th capable of bowling atleast 6-7 overs each.

 

Even though expensive i have to say Thakur is alright in terms of wicket taking.   Last 2 years Thakur's strike rate is better than Shami. 

 

Among the players who played 10 or more matches. He reminds me of Agarkar in his early days where he would keep on taking wicket and also go expensive. Chahar would be ideal. But that dude is not really available outside IPL window.  Thakur is atleast available any time you need. Prasid had a long lay off. 

 

Siraj  23 matches 43 wicekts 18.90 avge 4.72 ER  Strike rate 24.0

Thakur 26 matches 38 wickets 24.10 avge 5.66 ER Strike rate 25.5

Prasid 11 matches 19  wickets 22.31 avge 4.86 ER strike rate 27.5

Umran 10 matches 13 wickets 30.69 avge 6.54 ER strike rate 28.1

Shami 12 matches 15 wickets 29.73 avge 5.30 ER strike rate 33.6

 

 

 

[LordPrabhzy]

2 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Sundar is there.

he exists yes but hes a nazuk kali who breaks down every 5 balls he bowls

[Number]

12 minutes ago, LordPrabhzy said:

he exists yes but hes a nazuk kali who breaks down every 5 balls he bowls

That is Deepak Chahar. Such a quality all rounder but can't get out of NCA.

[vvvslaxman]

33 minutes ago, bahadur_billa said:

It's clear that third spinner will be used on spinning tracks probably Lucknow and Chennai against England and Australia. With the amount of left handers in these teams it would be better to replace Axar with either Sundar or Ashwin.

 

Sometimes opening with off spinner is a big wicket taking option in Indian conditions.  In Q/F world cup India opened the bowling with Ashwin.   That too against 2 right handers. In the first 10 overs he bowled 5 overs went for 22 runs cleaned up Shane watson.  There may be situations where on dry tracks employing an offie to open will work. Having two identical left arm darters who primarily bowl outside power play is a disasterous selection.

[Gollum]

Ashwin should have played the WTC final, one decision we'll always regret. Ok if we don't pick him here, but Axar is no solution either, rather go with Tilak or Prasidh.

[Norman]

People are overreacting big time after yesterday's game. That wicket was proper dust bowl after the 30 overs mark due to the sun beating down a tired wicket...

 

Are we seriously expecting that ICC curators will serve up such wickets for the world cup. Even at venues like Lucknow, Chennai etc... playing Jadeja + two more spinners is going to be way too much...white ball is not going to do jack **** that too during the winter. Besides, we can't pick players for a couple of venues/games. It's as idiotic as it gets. Even in 2011, we went in with 3 seamers for most games and used Yuvi/Raina as the 2nd spinner. 

[Norman]

If not for that fluke (with all due respect) knock by Jaddu in the SF against New Zealand, we would seen back of him by now and would have maybe developed a batting allrounder who bowls spin.. but alas...

 

 

4 bowlers + 1 AR + 1 genuine part timer is enough for any given day in any conditions. Instead we play 4+2+0 , which only works for teams that have bowlers who are capable with the bat. That is why England can afford to play both Stokes and Moeen in the XI. They even played Stokes-woakes in the top 7 in the 2019 wc. But for us, with tailenders who can't reach double digits to save their lives, it makes zero sense to further weaken the batting output from the top7. 

[Lord]

10 minutes ago, Norman said:

People are overreacting big time after yesterday's game. That wicket was proper dust bowl after the 30 overs mark due to the sun beating down a tired wicket...

 

Are we seriously expecting that ICC curators will serve up such wickets for the world cup. Even at venues like Lucknow, Chennai etc... playing Jadeja + two more spinners is going to be way too much...white ball is not going to do jack **** that too during the winter. Besides, we can't pick players for a couple of venues/games. It's as idiotic as it gets. Even in 2011, we went in with 3 seamers for most games and used Yuvi/Raina as the 2nd spinner. 

 

We don't have Yuvi/Raina type here. Venues like Lucknow, Chennai,Delhi are gonna assist spin and won't have much for pacers.

 

Its Thakur v Shami vs a spinner who could bat.Can decide that based on pitches.

[vvvslaxman]

50 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Ashwin should have played the WTC final, one decision we'll always regret. Ok if we don't pick him here, but Axar is no solution either, rather go with Tilak or Prasidh.

 

Prasidh will be a gun selection. He is an X factor bowler. His bounce is something you don't see from other bowlers. Against right teams he is a great selection. I would play him against Pakistan

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, Norman said:

If not for that fluke (with all due respect) knock by Jaddu in the SF against New Zealand, we would seen back of him by now and would have maybe developed a batting allrounder who bowls spin.. but alas...

 

Still batsmen could have worked on their bowling. Nobody did and it wasn't a factor in selection.

 

Even Jaddu could have been used better by batting him in middle overs since everyone knows he can't attack from start. Or Sundar. I don't see too many other options in that phase.Tilak only emerged now.

2 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

 

4 bowlers + 1 AR + 1 genuine part timer is enough for any given day in any conditions. Instead we play 4+2+0 , which only works for teams that have bowlers who are capable with the bat. That is why England can afford to play both Stokes and Moeen in the XI. They even played Stokes-woakes in the top 7 in the 2019 wc. But for us, with tailenders who can't reach double digits to save their lives, it makes zero sense to further weaken the batting output from the top7. 

 

Our strategy is based on moderate scores rather than batting out the opposition. Even if we have depth. Batsmen still play conservatively.Too many one dimensional players is the problem.

[vvvslaxman]

16 minutes ago, Norman said:

If not for that fluke (with all due respect) knock by Jaddu in the SF against New Zealand, we would seen back of him by now and would have maybe developed a batting allrounder who bowls spin.. but alas...

 

 

4 bowlers + 1 AR + 1 genuine part timer is enough for any given day in any conditions. Instead we play 4+2+0 , which only works for teams that have bowlers who are capable with the bat. That is why England can afford to play both Stokes and Moeen in the XI. They even played Stokes-woakes in the top 7 in the 2019 wc. But for us, with tailenders who can't reach double digits to save their lives, it makes zero sense to further weaken the batting output from the top7. 

 

Axar is seriously considered as an option by team management. In comparison Sundar or Ashwin are better. Ideally you would want a part time bowler to share the overs with Pandya who can break down any time.  Most of the options available are untested under-19 players.  So that will happen only after world cup. 

 

Rohit

Gill

Kohli

Rahul

Iyer

Tilak or Paragh

Pandya

Jadeja

Kuldeep

Bumrah

Siraj

 

That is 8  batsmen.  6 bowlers.

Edited September 13, 2023 by vvvslaxman

[vvvslaxman]

Kohli shouldn't bowl. He is a crap bowler. Has bowled 90 overs in internationals.  Rohit is an oldie. Among the rookies  Jaiswal and Tilak can be a good part time options. 

[Lord]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

Kohli shouldn't bowl. He is a crap bowler. Has bowled 90 overs in internationals.  Rohit is an oldie. Among the rookies  Jaiswal and Tilak can be a good part time options. 

 

Jaiswal should target to become like Livi. Tilak can be like Markram.

 

But it'll happen only after WC.

[Norman]

20 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

We don't have Yuvi/Raina type here. Venues like Lucknow, Chennai,Delhi are gonna assist spin and won't have much for pacers.

 

Its Thakur v Shami vs a spinner who could bat.Can decide that based on pitches.

 

Yeah that's what I was saying. We should have moved on from Jaddu and developed a genuine part time option in the last 3-4 years but we didn't do that. Kedhar was the last such option we had. Maybe Iyer could have been tried or may be in the recent months , Tilak and Jaiswal could have been identified to do that but it didn't materialize.

 

And as you said , even if wickets do offer considerable assistance, we should rather go with an attacking option like Bishnoi rather than Axar or Ashwin. Yes Ashwin is a wicket-taker in tests but he relies on setting up the batters with his flight and lines by bowling mad amount of overs at them, which won't be the case in LOI.

.

[Norman]

25 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Axar is seriously considered as an option by team management. In comparison Sundar or Ashwin are better. Ideally you would want a part time bowler to share the overs with Pandya who can break down any time.  Most of the options available are untested under-19 players.  So that will happen only after world cup. 

 

Rohit

Gill

Kohli

Rahul

Iyer

Tilak or Paragh

Pandya

Jadeja

Kuldeep

Bumrah

Siraj

 

That is 8  batsmen.  6 bowlers.

 

Yeah agree Axar is not the right option but that doesn't make Ashwin the right one..or even Sundar. What we need is a Mehedi/Shakib style spinning allrounder (rather than the two darting phonies we have) or a straight up match-winner like Rashid/Kuldeep/Zampa..

 

The closest to the two types we have is Bishnoi. 

[Lord]

1 minute ago, Norman said:

 

Yeah that's what I was saying. We should have moved on from Jaddu and developed a genuine part time option in the last 3-4 years but we didn't do that. Kedhar was the last such option we had. Maybe Iyer could have been tried or may be in the recent months , Tilak and Jaiswal could have been identified to do that but it didn't materialize.

 

And as you said , even if wickets do offer considerable assistance, we should rather go with an attacking option like Bishnoi rather than Axar or Ashwin. Yes Ashwin is a wicket-taker in tests but he relies on setting up the batters with his flight and lines by bowling mad amount of overs at them, which won't be the case in LOI.

.

 

Iyer was our only hope. As I said, it was upto selectors to send this message by selecting such players. Tilak and Jaiswal couldn't have been identified earlier as they shone this year mostly. Maybe Sundar could have been tried at no. 5 with bowling but he has his own injury issues.

 

Ashwin does have variations though. He can use that in ODIs.I'd like a wrist spinner too but someone classical.

 

Bishnoi is perfect for T20 but even in spin friendly conditions, he relies on batsmen to attack to get wickets. Can easily play him out otherwise as he doesn't have a genuine leg break.He also bowls at a quick pace.

[vvvslaxman]

39 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

Yeah agree Axar is not the right option but that doesn't make Ashwin the right one..or even Sundar. What we need is a Mehedi/Shakib style spinning allrounder (rather than the two darting phonies we have) or a straight up match-winner like Rashid/Kuldeep/Zampa..

 

The closest to the two types we have is Bishnoi. 

 

Bishnoi is not a batsman. Not a fully evolved 50 over bowler due to his lack of conventional leg spin. He will be treated like inswing bowler.  Ashwin is gone.  Shakib is sort of an spinning all round legend. Even Jaddu is not close to him in LOIs.  But Mehidy? He sure bullied us in a series. But overall his career is not much better than Sundar. Sundar has not enough games. Otherwise he has done okay

 

 

[Nash]

I think that ashwin anna is a good option as he can smack some also.