Controversial Topic :- Polygamy and UCC

[ravishingravi]

Nothing to do with Shoaib Malik's third marriage. 

 

Now the popular view seems to be that we should have the UCC and mainstream the Muslim community to single marriage at a time rule. On the face of it, it seems like a no brainer. But I have been trying to test the framework a bit here. 

 

One we have massive population decline that we are starting in the face in next 10-20 years. Except qudrati nizam in neighbourhood and Africa population is on secular decline. 

 

Two many societies including ours can be very difficult single women ( not very easy for single men either ). Not to mention single mothers. Its potentially great social psychological support. Just the social structure excludes this segment. Plus from legal perspective and social perspective things are difficult. 

 

Now I am not sure how the exact law should be framed. But there maybe a case for rethinking the structure. First joint families went away. Now nuclear families are also dissipating. Is there a case for allowing more than one marriage ? Maybe 2-3 ( whatever be the number ). I know it challenges the traditional outlook and is a difficult discussion. But maybe it's one we need to have. Don't think Hindus had any prescribed number unlike Abrahamics and instance of multiple marriages were plenty till few decades back. 

 

Yes there are risks and downsides. But I think it's a discussion worth having. 

[Trichromatic]

Why was polygamy demonized in first place?

[diga]

55 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Why was polygamy demonized in first place?

Inheritance laws can turn out to be too complex ... Maybe lawyer saheba can enlighten us @Mariyam

[bowl_out]

1 hour ago, diga said:

Inheritance laws can turn out to be too complex ... Maybe lawyer saheba can enlighten us @Mariyam

I thought it was simply an imposition of British practices that eventually became a law in Independent India. Many men including some of my great grandfathers who got married before/slightly after independence had 2-3 wives 

[coffee_rules]

 

 

[coffee_rules]

49 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

I thought it was simply an imposition of British practices that eventually became a law in Independent India. Many men including some of my great grandfathers who got married before/slightly after independence had 2-3 wives 

Kounse khandaan Se ho aap? Property disputes is main reason to not have multiple marriages. We never had property, so can’t relate to GGFs having 2/3 wives. Why was 2/3 he Shanda not being encouraged then.

 

 

[ravishingravi]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

 

 

 

Mujhe bhi chaar Shaadi Karni hai. 

[ravishingravi]

8 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Why was polygamy demonized in first place?

 

It's legacy of British era. Plus new neo liberal order in post war was based on judo Christian values which promoted family and one marriage. 

[ravishingravi]

Just want to highlight that India is already at the TFR rate when it comes to population without any forced imposition. So the curve will only get worse and India will get to where China is today in 20 years. So social issues aside this is a real problem. 

[bowl_out]

9 hours ago, ravishingravi said:

 

One we have massive population decline that we are starting in the face in next 10-20 years. Except qudrati nizam in neighbourhood and Africa population is on secular decline. 

How so? Certainly not the situation in India. States like UP/Bihar still have fertility rates of almost 3. It has to be much less than 2 to start seeing a decline.. even then it might take a few decades for it to reflect on population decline

[ravishingravi]

11 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

How so? Certainly not the situation in India. States like UP/Bihar still have fertility rates of almost 3. It has to be much less than 2 to start seeing a decline.. even then it might take a few decades for it to reflect on population decline

 

Already 2 with a declining trend. Now forecast further with growing  urbanization 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=tfr+india&oq=tfr+india&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCwgAEEUYExg5GIAEMgkIARAAGBMYgAQyCQgCEAAYExiABDIJCAMQABgTGIAEMgkIBBAAGBMYgAQyCQgFEAAYExiABDIJCAYQABgTGIAEMgkIBxAAGBMYgAQyCQgIEAAYExiABDIJCAkQABgTGIAEMgwIChAAGAoYExgWGB4yDAgLEAAYChgTGBYYHjIKCAwQABgTGBYYHjIKCA0QABgTGBYYHjIKCA4QABgTGBYYHtIBCDI3NDFqMGo0qAIAsAIA&client=ms-android-oneplus-rvo3&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[bowl_out]

7 hours ago, ravishingravi said:

 

Already 2 with a declining trend. Now forecast further with growing  urbanization 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=tfr+india&oq=tfr+india&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCwgAEEUYExg5GIAEMgkIARAAGBMYgAQyCQgCEAAYExiABDIJCAMQABgTGIAEMgkIBBAAGBMYgAQyCQgFEAAYExiABDIJCAYQABgTGIAEMgkIBxAAGBMYgAQyCQgIEAAYExiABDIJCAkQABgTGIAEMgwIChAAGAoYExgWGB4yDAgLEAAYChgTGBYYHjIKCAwQABgTGBYYHjIKCA0QABgTGBYYHjIKCA4QABgTGBYYHtIBCDI3NDFqMGo0qAIAsAIA&client=ms-android-oneplus-rvo3&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

It won't be trending down forever, it will flatten out.

All South Indian states are at 1.7-1.8 and seem to have plateaued. It's up to UP and Bihar to get closer to 2. Even then the country average might get to 1.9, which is just below the replacement rate of 2.1.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_union_territories_of_India_by_fertility_rate#Total_Fertility_rate_yearwise

 

While the population might flatten out at ~150 crore, I don't see if massively declining.

[ravishingravi]

3 hours ago, bowl_out said:

It won't be trending down forever, it will flatten out.

All South Indian states are at 1.7-1.8 and seem to have plateaued. It's up to UP and Bihar to get closer to 2. Even then the country average might get to 1.9, which is just below the replacement rate of 2.1.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_states_and_union_territories_of_India_by_fertility_rate#Total_Fertility_rate_yearwise

 

While the population might flatten out at ~150 crore, I don't see if massively declining.

 

 

South Korea / Japan. 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=south+korea+tfr&oq=south+korea+tfr&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCwgAEEUYExg5GIAEMgkIARAAGBMYgAQyCQgCEAAYExiABDIJCAMQABgTGIAEMgoIBBAAGBMYFhgeMgoIBRAAGBMYFhgeMgoIBhAAGBMYFhgeMgoIBxAAGBMYFhgeMgoICBAAGBMYFhgeMgoICRAAGBMYFhge0gEIODIzM2owajmoAgCwAgA&client=ms-android-oneplus-rvo3&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

 

[coffee_rules]

Now to solve the FR problem, let’s have orgies!!

 

on topic, really she paid him out money ? This is hilarious!!

 

 

Sania didn’t take divorce (Talaq) but she took KHULA from her husband says her father
Khula means Woman initiates the divorce by paying him money and he takes payment and lets her go
It is like buying your freedom by paying money to your kidnapper during hostage crisis
In… pic.twitter.com/0XK6lU95FA

— Swathi Bellam (@BellamSwathi) January 21, 2024

[bowl_out]

15 hours ago, ravishingravi said:

 

 

South Korea / Japan. 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=south+korea+tfr&oq=south+korea+tfr&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCwgAEEUYExg5GIAEMgkIARAAGBMYgAQyCQgCEAAYExiABDIJCAMQABgTGIAEMgoIBBAAGBMYFhgeMgoIBRAAGBMYFhgeMgoIBhAAGBMYFhgeMgoIBxAAGBMYFhgeMgoICBAAGBMYFhgeMgoICRAAGBMYFhge0gEIODIzM2owajmoAgCwAgA&client=ms-android-oneplus-rvo3&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

 

But India <> Korea/Japan. 

Culturally very different countries. Here, the cultural norm is for everybody to get married and have kids. It isn't a choice for 99.9999% of the people and it isn't changing

[ravishingravi]

41 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

But India <> Korea/Japan. 

Culturally very different countries. Here, the cultural norm is for everybody to get married and have kids. It isn't a choice for 99.9999% of the people and it isn't changing

 

I want to check how many here are actually in India or in the cities. In my immediate circle I see an exponential rise in cases of divorces, non marriages, single mothers. And when I say exponential, it's massive. From a friend who happens to divorce lawyer, her business is up 5X. Divorce proceedings have been simplified. 

 

The India of our images is certainly not the one I see. I am forecasting this issue but it's not just me. 

[Nikhil_cric]

6 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

 

I want to check how many here are actually in India or in the cities. In my immediate circle I see an exponential rise in cases of divorces, non marriages, single mothers. And when I say exponential, it's massive. From a friend who happens to divorce lawyer, her business is up 5X. Divorce proceedings have been simplified. 

 

The India of our images is certainly not the one I see. I am forecasting this issue but it's not just me. 

 

It's increased massively in urban India. 

 

Children are expensive for a lot of folks.  

You need to own a home and provide the best in terms of education and it has become ridiculously costly in recent times.

 

Not only that , there is genuine fear for the future prospects in terms of jobs and stability and increasingly fewer people are willing to make long term commitments of marriage or children. 

[mishra]

On 1/20/2024 at 7:57 PM, bowl_out said:

How so? Certainly not the situation in India. States like UP/Bihar still have fertility rates of almost 3. It has to be much less than 2 to start seeing a decline.. even then it might take a few decades for it to reflect on population decline

2.1. To maintain population. Below and its decreasing 

[Mariyam]

On 1/20/2024 at 6:06 PM, diga said:

Inheritance laws can turn out to be too complex ... Maybe lawyer saheba can enlighten us @Mariyam

Inheritance laws are kept simple, but there are way too many riders.

 

Long story short, on the demise of the father the mother gets 1/8th of the total share. The rest is divided among the children with each boy getting double the share of each girl.

The real problems start if the father had multiple wives. Or if any of the children married non Muslims. A woman marrying a non Muslim denies her any share of her father's property as per Islamic canonical law.

 

Another reason why the UCC is a must. Muslims stand to benefit from it immensely, though years of propaganda drilled by moulvis and related political shills has made the concept of the UCC seem like a denial of freedom to religion. 

 

 

[ravishingravi]

22 hours ago, Mariyam said:

Inheritance laws are kept simple, but there are way too many riders.

 

Long story short, on the demise of the father the mother gets 1/8th of the total share. The rest is divided among the children with each boy getting double the share of each girl.

The real problems start if the father had multiple wives. Or if any of the children married non Muslims. A woman marrying a non Muslim denies her any share of her father's property as per Islamic canonical law.

 

Another reason why the UCC is a must. Muslims stand to benefit from it immensely, though years of propaganda drilled by moulvis and related political shills has made the concept of the UCC seem like a denial of freedom to religion. 

 

 

 

Do you think there is a societal upside to allowing polygamy ?