2006 Ashes Adelaide test - Should England have done what Ganguly did Sydney in 2004?

[Trichromatic]

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/england-tour-of-australia-2006-07-227733/australia-vs-england-2nd-test-249223/full-scorecard

 

England scored 551/6 and declared. Eventually lost 2nd and whitewashed in that Ashes.

 

Same thing happened to Australia in 2004 series where England managed to beat them in somewhat similar fashion, only difference was that Aus were at recieving end.

 

https://www.cricbuzz.com/live-cricket-scorecard/5201/aus-vs-ind-2nd-test-india-in-australia-2003-04

 

When India were 650-6 at end of day 2 in 2004 Sydney test, Ganguly decided to play on 3rd day also.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-australia-2003-04-62294/australia-vs-india-4th-test-64062/full-scorecard

 

India declared at 705-7 and managed to put more pressure on Aus.

 

Should England have batted more and ensure that they outbatted Aus completely? If they had scored 700 and dismissed Aus for even 500, it would still have been big lead to play with.

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/england-tour-of-australia-2006-07-227733/australia-vs-england-2nd-test-249223/full-scorecard

 

England scored 551/6 and declared. Eventually lost 2nd and whitewashed in that Ashes.

 

Same thing happened to Australia in 2004 series where England managed to beat them in somewhat similar fashion, only difference was that Aus were at recieving end.

 

https://www.cricbuzz.com/live-cricket-scorecard/5201/aus-vs-ind-2nd-test-india-in-australia-2003-04

 

When India were 650-6 at end of day 2 in 2004 Sydney test, Ganguly decided to play on 3rd day also.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-australia-2003-04-62294/australia-vs-india-4th-test-64062/full-scorecard

 

India declared at 705-7 and managed to put more pressure on Aus.

 

Should England have batted more and ensure that they outbatted Aus completely? If they had scored 700 and dismissed Aus for even 500, it would still have been big lead to play with.

they were mental midgets against warne. we were not, and moreover warne was not playing in adelaide

[Kron]

5 hours ago, Vijy said:

they were mental midgets against warne. we were not, and moreover warne was not playing in adelaide

And wouldn't have done much anyway. It's mcg that would have caused issues for us

[Vk1]

6 hours ago, Vijy said:

they were mental midgets against warne. we were not, and moreover warne was not playing in adelaide

agree.. some teams have psychological scars against Aussies and they tend to overcome this only with some special players.. NZ has no such cricketers ( except for Bond ) so they keep losing to aussies from winning positions. Eng too would have lost more if not for Ben Stokes/ Flintoff

Edited March 17 by Vk1

[Trichromatic]

7 hours ago, Vijy said:

they were mental midgets against warne. we were not, and moreover warne was not playing in adelaide

 

One thing that they should have known is that 550 is not exactly type of score with which you could outbat opposition at Adelaide in those days.

 

Did they miss to take nature of track into account?

[Vijy]

11 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

One thing that they should have known is that 550 is not exactly type of score with which you could outbat opposition at Adelaide in those days.

 

Did they miss to take nature of track into account?

no, they wanted to push for a win. it was good thinking in theory

[putrevus]

22 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/england-tour-of-australia-2006-07-227733/australia-vs-england-2nd-test-249223/full-scorecard

 

England scored 551/6 and declared. Eventually lost 2nd and whitewashed in that Ashes.

 

Same thing happened to Australia in 2004 series where England managed to beat them in somewhat similar fashion, only difference was that Aus were at recieving end.

 

https://www.cricbuzz.com/live-cricket-scorecard/5201/aus-vs-ind-2nd-test-india-in-australia-2003-04

 

When India were 650-6 at end of day 2 in 2004 Sydney test, Ganguly decided to play on 3rd day also.

 

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/india-tour-of-australia-2003-04-62294/australia-vs-india-4th-test-64062/full-scorecard

 

India declared at 705-7 and managed to put more pressure on Aus.

 

Should England have batted more and ensure that they outbatted Aus completely? If they had scored 700 and dismissed Aus for even 500, it would still have been big lead to play with.

They overestimated their bowling attack and Ganguly underestimated his bowling attack. Ganguly needed to declare half hour in day 2.Sachin batted so slow even in in his  partnership with Partiv Patel.

 

Flintoff should haved scored more runs at fast pace.

 

 

[Trichromatic]

12 hours ago, putrevus said:

They overestimated their bowling attack and Ganguly underestimated his bowling attack. Ganguly needed to declare half hour in day 2.Sachin batted so slow even in in his  partnership with Partiv Patel.

 

Flintoff should haved scored more runs at fast pace.

 

 

 

Sachin scored 44 ball 48 runs while batting with Parthiv Patel. Wonder what was thought process behind that.

 

Not sure whether Ganguly underestimated or he played too safe. They had seen what happened at Adelaide, it made sense to get to 650+, pace could have been different.

 

Australia with that batting line up conceded a lead of 200+ runs. Imagine if current Indian team concedes a lead of 200+. 

 

England had seen what happened in Aus in past, but probably 2005 Ashes success gave them confidence that 550 was enough. This is where they would have set the time limit and tried to get to 650 in same time. They scored 83 runs in 22 overs after Collingwood was dismissed. It should have been 130-140.

[Majestic]

This is exactly the reason why Ganguly will remain India's best ever test captain. He was a revolutionary in Test cricket for India. India were historically and at that time too placed bottom among the top 8 teams or probably tied with NZ and then Ganguly came and changed everything.

Edited March 20 by Majestic

[nevada]

Yes, England should have looked to add more runs instead of declaring. 550 is a very good score but doesn't create the scoreboard pressure that 650 or 700 can. If you have a chance to bat out the opposition and take a loss out of the equation, why not take it? 

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, nevada said:

Yes, England should have looked to add more runs instead of declaring. 550 is a very good score but doesn't create the scoreboard pressure that 650 or 700 can. If you have a chance to bat out the opposition and take a loss out of the equation, why not take it? 

 

Or put it like this. 550 is not the score below which they could dismiss Aus twice. They had to bat again, then why not bat in first inning itself.

[putrevus]

On 3/17/2024 at 11:17 PM, Trichromatic said:

 

Sachin scored 44 ball 48 runs while batting with Parthiv Patel. Wonder what was thought process behind that.

 

Not sure whether Ganguly underestimated or he played too safe. They had seen what happened at Adelaide, it made sense to get to 650+, pace could have been different.

 

Australia with that batting line up conceded a lead of 200+ runs. Imagine if current Indian team concedes a lead of 200+. 

 

England had seen what happened in Aus in past, but probably 2005 Ashes success gave them confidence that 550 was enough. This is where they would have set the time limit and tried to get to 650 in same time. They scored 83 runs in 22 overs after Collingwood was dismissed. It should have been 130-140.

You don't bat into third day and expect to win a test.Aussies under Steve Waugh were not snowflakes like Sachin and co who would wilt under pressure.Umpring from Bucknor did not help India either.

 

Giving them 30 minutes of batting in second day was the easiest way to put them under pressure but Ganguly lacked guts.He batted into fifth day even in Kolkatta test but Bhajji and Sachin bailed him out.

 

Ganguly is the most overrated captain.He had best batting talent at their peak at his disposal but lacked guts to be a great captain.

[Gollum]

Parthiv Patel's keeping gives me nightmares to this day.

 

Torture didn't stop there. He missed so many catches in the 2016 home series against Eng, and that chwtiyapa in Centurion 2017 where he dropped 5 catches in one day 

[Vijy]

On 3/26/2024 at 4:43 AM, Gollum said:

Parthiv Patel's keeping gives me nightmares to this day.

 

Torture didn't stop there. He missed so many catches in the 2016 home series against Eng, and that chwtiyapa in Centurion 2017 where he dropped 5 catches in one day 

he was our own kamran akmal. marginally better keeper, and about the same level as batter

[Gollum]

11 minutes ago, Vijy said:

he was our own kamran akmal. marginally better keeper, and about the same level as batter

Nah bro. Kamran was better with bat and gloves. Mohali 2005 and Karachi 2006 were stuff of legend. And his keeping went south after few years, initially he was ok. Parthiv was always a pathetic keeper.

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Nah bro. Kamran was better with bat and gloves. Mohali 2005 and Karachi 2006 were stuff of legend. And his keeping went south after few years, initially he was ok. Parthiv was always a pathetic keeper.

Kamran did well only against a few teams at home or in SC. Parthiv has a better overseas resume IMO.

 

As for keeping, we should take the avg over entire career

[AuxiliA]

On 3/25/2024 at 6:21 PM, putrevus said:

You don't bat into third day and expect to win a test.Aussies under Steve Waugh were not snowflakes like Sachin and co who would wilt under pressure.Umpring from Bucknor did not help India either.

 

Giving them 30 minutes of batting in second day was the easiest way to put them under pressure but Ganguly lacked guts.He batted into fifth day even in Kolkatta test but Bhajji and Sachin bailed him out.

 

Ganguly is the most overrated captain.He had best batting talent at their peak at his disposal but lacked guts to be a great captain.

 

 

We should cut Ganguly some slack for taking the safety first approach in tests. The 90s Indian team which he inherited was notorious for losing from winning positions. Also, he didn't have the bowling attack that IND has now in tests. 

 

Between 1986-2001, 15 years, we shockingly had won just 1 oversees Test! (that too vs a weak SL team). Under Ganguly within a couple of years we drew 4 match test series in Aus & Eng and won our first series in Pak. He deserves credit as captain for the change in fortunes. 

 

Batting long (& big) in the Sydney 2004 test actually put more pressure on Aus, who were badly looking for a victory on home soil in Steve Waugh's farewell test. We would have won that if we had a better keeper than a 12yo Parthiv.