Why is Richards Hadlee rated better bowler than Imran Khan?

[singhvivek141]

11 minutes ago, zen said:

Kapil started bowling in Aus in the 80s where Imran stats’ are better iirc. In Aus, Imran’s numbers are impacted due to bowling in the 70s.
 

In WI in 1987, Imran picked up around 25 wickets in 3 tests. That test series was a draw but many think Pak could have won it if not , ironically, for umpiring!

 

Pak throughout their career did the same with other.

Sobers played only 3 games in Pak..it's in recorded history that as soon as ball hits the pad, Pak umpire used to give him out.

 

Only by third test he realized what's going on...and decided not to touch the ball with the pad. Post that tourned he decided never to tour Pak again. Such was their shoddy umpiring.

[zen]

1 minute ago, singhvivek141 said:

Pak throughout their career did the same with other.

Sobers played only 3 games in Pak..it's in recorded history that as soon as ball hits the pad, Pak umpire used to give him out.

 

Only by third test he realized what's going on...and decided not to touch the ball with the pad. Post that tourned he decided never to tour Pak again. Such was their shoddy umpiring.

Home umpiring was generally biased in those times. In crucial sessions, visiting teams used to avoid using pads.

[singhvivek141]

20 minutes ago, Majestic said:

New Zealand during Hadlee era was unarguably better than Australia. Australia were going all downhill before Allan Border resurrected them. Additionally, England was still quality side with likes of Gower, Gooch, Gatting,Botham etc otherwise Kapil won't have averaged 40 with bowl there. 

 

Kapil was mentioned not for comparison but because the argument used against Imran is his away average, which is actually excellent itself, i.e. 25.78. This itself puts him in league of ATG fast bowlers. His home conditions were tough for batting. Additionally, he was also an excellent new bowl bowler which is why he did well overseas. The difference in averages you are mentioning for Windies and Australia is pretty small, like +2,+1 etc.

 

It needs to be mentioned that Hadlee's home record is extremely influenced by conditions beneficial for swing bowling.

For WI..the difference is around 2.

For Aus it's around 4.

Imran never toured SA. Kapil did in 1992-1993 & till then he was finished as a bowler.

Kapil Ideally should have retired post 1992 WC..but he kept on dragging for the record.

Many even say that Kapil wanted to play 96 WC as well, but selectors & ex cricketers like Amarnath & Gavaskar advised him not to.

[zen]

1 minute ago, singhvivek141 said:

Kapil Ideally should have retired post 1992 WC..but he kept on dragging for the record.

Many even say that Kapil wanted to play 96 WC as well, but selectors & ex cricketers like Amarnath & Gavaskar advised him not to.

Kapil was a selfish cricketer, who is said to play politics too. One of the reasons, I don’t like to support him (even though I appreciate many of his performances).

 

 

[Majestic]

25 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

For WI..the difference is around 2.

For Aus it's around 4.

Imran never toured SA. Kapil did in 1992-1993 & till then he was finished as a bowler.

Kapil Ideally should have retired post 1992 WC..but he kept on dragging for the record.

Many even say that Kapil wanted to play 96 WC as well, but selectors & ex cricketers like Amarnath & Gavaskar advised him not to.

Hadlee also averaged 44 in Pak. That was the only era when New Zealand were a better test team than India and Sri Lanka were minnows. Hadlee toured Asia and the only serious challenge he had was vs Pakistan where he failed miserably, averaging 44 with bowl.

[deathmonger]

6 hours ago, Majestic said:

25.78 is not a mediocre away average in any era. Everyone does better at home than away.

 

Kapil averages 26 at home with ball and 32 away. That's what you call it "mediocre".

Kapil doesn't have a claim to be a bowling ATG.

 

Dragging him here doesn't change the fact that the Pakistani 3 W's are "mediocre" by "ATG standards".

 

25.78 is mediocre by "ATG standards".

 

Jasprit Bumrah for example averages 21 away. McGrath 21. Hadlee 21. Marshall 21. Ambrose 20.

 

With neutral umpires/non ball tampering the 3 Pakistani pacers would average around 25 each - basically Hazlewood/Gillespie level.

 

They are not on the level of McGrath, Marshall, Hadlee, Ambrose, Bumrah etc - the true elite

Edited August 11, 2024 by deathmonger

[putrevus]

On 8/10/2024 at 5:09 AM, Adamant said:

Here goes the low iq rant.

 

Do you know bottle caps aren’t effective from ball one and the umpire do notice that if a new ball is shredded in the first few overs itself.

 

Check Imrans wicket tally with the new ball that would be enough proof of his effectiveness, people across world forums rate him as one of the 5 ATg pacers .

Nobody rates him as 5 ATG pacer, they rate him high as captain and allrounder.

 

England openly accused him or cheating.

Edited August 11, 2024 by putrevus

[Majestic]

6 hours ago, deathmonger said:

Kapil doesn't have a claim to be a bowling ATG.

 

Dragging him here doesn't change the fact that the Pakistani 3 W's are "mediocre" by "ATG standards".

 

25.78 is mediocre by "ATG standards".

 

Jasprit Bumrah for example averages 21 away. McGrath 21. Hadlee 21. Marshall 21. Ambrose 20.

 

With neutral umpires/non ball tampering the 3 Pakistani pacers would average around 25 each - basically Hazlewood/Gillespie level.

 

They are not on the level of McGrath, Marshall, Hadlee, Ambrose, Bumrah etc - the true elite

Kapil doesn't have claim because he averages 32 away from home, not 25. Asian pacers deserve extra brownie points compared to non Asian pacers just as Non Asian spinners gets more brownie points compared to Asian spinners. They are used too of bowling different line and length in Asian pitches which is why it is hard to maintain that outside Asia. Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose etc played lesser games in Asia so their away average is influenced by "outside Asia" performance.

 

You don't have to average 20-21 away to be considered an ATG. Steyn averages 25 away from home too. He is an ATG.

 

Hazelwood/Gillespie don't even have 10 5-fers to begin with. Imran has 20+ and so does Wasim and Waqar, even Kapil also. Why Hadlee averages 44 in Pakistan? If it was so easy bowling in subcontinent conditions, why was he poor there. Cummins also has poor record in India. Ambrose never played in India.

[singhvivek141]

40 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Kapil doesn't have claim because he averages 32 away from home, not 25. Asian pacers deserve extra brownie points compared to non Asian pacers just as Non Asian spinners gets more brownie points compared to Asian spinners. They are used too of bowling different line and length in Asian pitches which is why it is hard to maintain that outside Asia. Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose etc played lesser games in Asia so their away average is influenced by "outside Asia" performance.

 

You don't have to average 20-21 away to be considered an ATG. Steyn averages 25 away from home too. He is an ATG.

 

Hazelwood/Gillespie don't even have 10 5-fers to begin with. Imran has 20+ and so does Wasim and Waqar, even Kapil also. Why Hadlee averages 44 in Pakistan? If it was so easy bowling in subcontinent conditions, why was he poor there. Cummins also has poor record in India. Ambrose never played in India.

Steyn's away stats are dented due to his last 2 years, he was easily averaging under 24 away. Now he averages 24 in away Tests (not 25).
Steyn had 21 wickets in 4 games vs SL...in 2018 he picked up only 2 wkts in 2 tests. We all know how Steyn struggled for injuries in his last 2-3 years. 
Just like we don't define greatness of a player for his peak (which lasts for an year or two), similarly players greatness can't be defined by his poor few year at the dawn of their career.

I am curious to know how many foreign pace bowlers have good stats in Pakistan from 1950-1990...it was very well documented that Pakistan always has done the cheating for their team. Their own bowlers always pickup the pile of wickets, but others struggle to get anything. Now when there are cameras everywhere, they're producing druggie fixers like Amir, 2 over trundler like Sofa set, an age fraud Naseem, a stone thrower Rauf and a fulltoss expert Shadab. What more signifies their cheat that they played an spinner who has more than 40 flex while bowling, yet ICC did nothing for years.

Edited August 11, 2024 by singhvivek141

[deathmonger]

3 hours ago, Majestic said:

Kapil doesn't have claim because he averages 32 away from home, not 25. Asian pacers deserve extra brownie points compared to non Asian pacers just as Non Asian spinners gets more brownie points compared to Asian spinners. They are used too of bowling different line and length in Asian pitches which is why it is hard to maintain that outside Asia. Hadlee, McGrath, Ambrose etc played lesser games in Asia so their away average is influenced by "outside Asia" performance.

 

You don't have to average 20-21 away to be considered an ATG. Steyn averages 25 away from home too. He is an ATG.

 

Hazelwood/Gillespie don't even have 10 5-fers to begin with. Imran has 20+ and so does Wasim and Waqar, even Kapil also. Why Hadlee averages 44 in Pakistan? If it was so easy bowling in subcontinent conditions, why was he poor there. Cummins also has poor record in India. Ambrose never played in India.

Pakistan is just ONE country. Hadlee still averages 21 AWAY.

 

The Pakistanis average 25+ AWAY, not just in one country. Wasim averages 39 in SA. Waqar 40+ in Aus and 70+ in Ind. Even Murali/Warne have bad stats in a couple of countries but make up for it in others.

 

 

[Kron]

2 hours ago, deathmonger said:

Pakistan is just ONE country. Hadlee still averages 21 AWAY.

 

The Pakistanis average 25+ AWAY, not just in one country. Wasim averages 39 in SA. Waqar 40+ in Aus and 70+ in Ind. Even Murali/Warne have bad stats in a couple of countries but make up for it in others.

 

 

Shami is better than shoaib, asif too.

Shoaib has a case to be better than Waqar if he does well again in BG this year. Shamia poor performance was in England as he can't swing the ball. He is not a swinger. Shami is more deadly than Waqar in Asian wickets of India etc. 

[nevada]

On 8/10/2024 at 11:21 PM, deathmonger said:

Imran average outside home - 25+

 

Hadlee - 21

 

Waqar 25+, Wasim 24+

 

If they are so good why relatively mediocre away from home?

 

Bottle caps

They were doing their tricks away from home as well. The infamous England series of 1992 was probably the peak of their "art". Imran Khan had good pace and carry even in his mid 30s and troubled our batsmen considerably in the world series in Australia, Sharjah etc. But due to massive contribution from "home support" aka cheating, he cannot be considered an ATG level bowler. His biggest contribution to cricket is introduction of neutral umpires! He gets lot of hype around the 1992 WC win but played slow train wreck type innings in both the SF and the Finals! He was lucky Inzy bailed him out in the SF and in the finals together with  Akram. IK was lucky there was no social media back then. He would have been roasted for his super slow batting. 

[Rightarmfast]

Let's just agree that Imran was a great bowler. Greatest? No! 

Let's all also agree that Imran's figures are bloated due to tampering. Even as late as 98, when Kiwis toured Pakistan, they were still tampering. Please watch some youtube video's and interviews of NZ players. They blatantly mention it. 

If tampering the ball wasn't enough, the umpires made sure that the ball hitting the 6th wicket was given lbw! The umpires in Pakistan were notorious. 

Imran's stats have been heavily improved due to his performance at home in early 80's and there onwards.

 

Still doesn't mean he was not a 'good-to-great'... bowler. He was. 

Hadlee's records speak for themselves. No blot on his career of cheating. 

 

As far as Kapil is concerned, he was the shock and stock bowler for the entire country for over a decade. If Imran, Wasim, Waqar had to bear that brunt, their averages and performances would be in late 30's! 

[Kron]

7 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Let's just agree that Imran was a great bowler. Greatest? No! 

Let's all also agree that Imran's figures are bloated due to tampering. Even as late as 98, when Kiwis toured Pakistan, they were still tampering. Please watch some youtube video's and interviews of NZ players. They blatantly mention it. 

If tampering the ball wasn't enough, the umpires made sure that the ball hitting the 6th wicket was given lbw! The umpires in Pakistan were notorious. 

Imran's stats have been heavily improved due to his performance at home in early 80's and there onwards.

 

Still doesn't mean he was not a 'good-to-great'... bowler. He was. 

Hadlee's records speak for themselves. No blot on his career of cheating. 

 

As far as Kapil is concerned, he was the shock and stock bowler for the entire country for over a decade. If Imran, Wasim, Waqar had to bear that brunt, their averages and performances would be in late 30's! 

Wouldn't say late 30s. Probably 27 28 for imran but 30 plus definitely for Waqar. Wasim would be 27 to 29 as well. 

 

But.....imran and Waqar would have broke down and quit by the time they reached 50 tests. Wasim was tougher than these 2. Will last till the end.

[putrevus]

 England in India Test Series, 1992/93 series

 

Kapil Dev's average in that with ball was 19.00 and with Bat it was 50.5. 

 

If Kapil Dev had support like he got in that series, he would have done very well as an allrounder if he had any support thruout his career.

 

He would have scored 2000 plus runs easily .If he did not have the burden of bowling so much.

 

He was easily more talented batsman than Imran ever was at any point in his career. Lack of reverse swing hurt Kapil a lot, if he had known reverse swing he would have easily ended up under 26 avg.

[Lord]

4 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 England in India Test Series, 1992/93 series

 

Kapil Dev's average in that with ball was 19.00 and with Bat it was 50.5. 

 

If Kapil Dev had support like he got in that series, he would have done very well as an allrounder if he had any support thruout his career.

 

He would have scored 2000 plus runs easily .If he did not have the burden of bowling so much.

 

He was easily more talented batsman than Imran ever was at any point in his career. Lack of reverse swing hurt Kapil a lot, if he had known reverse swing he would have easily ended up under 26 avg.

 

What stopped him from learning it?

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, Lord said:

 

What stopped him from learning it?

Samething that stopped all other countries at that time including WI from learning it. Sarfraz is credited with inventing it and Imran along with Wsim and Waqar perfected them along with some other means.

 

Doosra was invented by Pakistani bowlers too.Legality can be questioned for both to some extent.Doosra is now almost out.

 

Reverse swing even Inzi bhai is questioning on how India got reversing so early.Pakistani were the only ones who did it for two decades.

 

Imran was one of the guys who progated this theory that Pakistanis can reverse swing as they had high pace.

 

Chris Pringle who is trundler picked up 11 wickets in single test after he learnt reverse sswing by using bottle caps.

 

Credit to them for inventing reverse swing but but what they were doing was not just reverse swing.

 

After another resounding defeat at Lahore, several of the New Zealanders experimented in the nets with scoring one side of an old ball with bottle tops. "With that technique, even guys like Mark Greatbatch and Martin Crowe were swinging the ball miles in the air," Pringle wrote. "We practised long and hard in the nets and were quite excited about the results we were getting with it." Crowe admitted that he ran in to bowl his normal inswingers "only to see the ball curve the other way ... I'd never bowled outswingers in my life!"

 

This why Imran Khan was avg under 15 in Pakistan.

 

Edited August 12, 2024 by putrevus

[deathmonger]

On 8/12/2024 at 10:40 PM, Aiden said:

Lol . Only Indian fans consider the dibly dobly medium pacer Hadlee who played most of his career on green NZ & Eng wickets better than Imran Khan.

The entire world does.

 

Only pakeeeees overrate Imran.

[zen]

On 8/12/2024 at 9:46 PM, Kron said:

Wouldn't say late 30s. Probably 27 28 for imran but 30 plus definitely for Waqar. Wasim would be 27 to 29 as well. 

 

But.....imran and Waqar would have broke down and quit by the time they reached 50 tests. Wasim was tougher than these 2. Will last till the end.

No self respecting top bowler would keep playing for as long as Kapil did without many meaningful performances. He bowled within himself to last long for “himself”. 
 

If I am not wrong, guys like Srinath had to be wait for their debut. A bowler called Shekhar was sidelined after a bad game because he was said to bowl faster than Kapil. And when Kapil’s own first test in Pakistan was among the worst debuts. 

Kapil is the king of trundlers!

 

Edited August 14, 2024 by zen

[Rightarmfast]

2 hours ago, zen said:

No self respecting top bowler would keep playing for as long as Kapil did without many meaningful performances. He bowled within himself to last long for “himself”. 
 

If I am not wrong, guys like Srinath had to be wait for their debut. A bowler called Shekhar was sidelined after a bad game because he was said to bowl faster than Kapil. And when Kapil’s own first test in Pakistan was among the worst debuts. 

Kapil is the king of trundlers!

 

Shekhar was heading MRF pace academy. He was indeed sidelined by Kapil, as was Yograj, Yuvraj's father. Apparently because they had genuine pace, and better ceiling than Kapil. 

Those days were no better than whats happening now. Indeed, Kapil was a very selfish cricketer and spoilt careers of quite a few including a peak Javagal Srinath. 

But still I dont think he ever tampered with the ball. And we still have to give credit where its due. To carry a nation alone with bowling and when needed, with fielding and batting is no mean achievement. With better partners, Kapil could have done much better bowling wise. I guess he has himself to blame.