Ravindra Jadeja v MS Dhoni as test batsmen

[Trichromatic]

How do you compare them?

 

Put even R Ashwin in mix.

[jf1gp_1]

MSD was a much better test batsman than both. 

[Manucrick]

Jadeja got overseas 100 

[sensible-indian]

Jaddu 

 

Doesnt he average 50 in the last few years,

 

Or atleast 45?

[sensible-indian]

Dhoni better than Ash.

 

But Ash's batting impact goes beyond stats.

 

Has helped win 5 away series with the bat.

 

SL 2015

WI 2016

Aus 2018

Aus 2020

Bangladesh 2023

 

If we hadnt lost our plot in Centurion 2018...could have been 6.

 

Edited September 21 by sensible-indian

[Old guy]

impact wise msd was underwhelming in tests TBH.

[Tillu]

[Majestic]

For a fair comparison, let's remove all the knocks and innings count where a batsman was not out having scored less than 50 in a non-consequential game.

 

Then calculate the average. This will tell us who contributed more with bat of the three.

Edited September 21 by Majestic

[Old guy]

34 minutes ago, Tillu said:

yes...ashwin bats in top order :D

[Majestic]

If we simply look at runs per innings contribution,

 

Jadeja - 29.45

Dhoni - 33.86

Ashwin - Below 25

Edited September 21 by Majestic

[Lord]

32 minutes ago, Majestic said:

If we simply look at runs per innings contribution,

 

Jadeja - 29.45

Dhoni - 33.86

Ashwin - Below 25

 

Why punish the batsman for not getting out? Lower down there is lesser chance of big scores anyway as you have to bat with tail.

[Majestic]

4 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Why punish the batsman for not getting out? Lower down there is lesser chance of big scores anyway as you have to bat with tail.

Ultimately the job is to contribute with bat and win games. What I am looking for in a better batsman comparison is their overall contributions with bat.

 

A 60* is a good knock but a 13* is insignificant and just stat padding. Unless that knock saves you a test match like how Ashwin's 20 odd did in Sydney Test, it is useless. 

 

I am also willing to remove those innings and count the runs per inning based on that so the batsman don't get punished because ultimately they didn't got out but I don't want to allow them that undeserving advantage of being not out and boosting their averages as a result of it.

49 minutes ago, Majestic said:

For a fair comparison, let's remove all the knocks and innings count where a batsman was not out having scored less than 50 in a non-consequential game.

 

Then calculate the average. This will tell us who contributed more with bat of the three.

 

[Lord]

Just now, Majestic said:

Ultimately the job is to contribute with bat and win games. What I am looking for in a better batsman comparison is their overall contributions with bat.

 

A 60* is a good knock but a 13* is insignificant and just stat padding. Unless that knock saves you a test match like how Ashwin's 20 odd did in Sydney Test, it is useless. 

 

I am also willing to remove those innings and count the runs per inning based on that so the batsman don't get punished because ultimately they didn't got out but I don't want to allow them that undeserving advantage of being not out and boosting their averages as a result of it.

 

 

13 not out with tail collpasing could have been a 50 if they held up

 

When comparing while removing not out,higher order bat will always have an advantage as he had more opportunity to score big.

[Old guy]

1 minute ago, Lord said:

 

13 not out with tail collpasing could have been a 50 if they held up

 

When comparing while removing not out,higher order bat will always have an advantage as he had more opportunity to score big.

that only proves worth of jaddu and ashwin tbh 

[Majestic]

8 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

13 not out with tail collpasing could have been a 50 if they held up

 

When comparing while removing not out,higher order bat will always have an advantage as he had more opportunity to score big.

Could have been and should have been doesn't have a place in the game.

 

To make an impact, you have to do it before all 10 wickets are gone. If you can't do it till then, it is an useless knock. There is no value of your 13* or 23* with 10th wicket fallen. 

 

You should be rated based on how much you contributed to teams total and not on how much you could because there is no way to prove if that 13* would have been 13 out or a century. These knocks do nothing but just are stats booster which I am not willing to give undeservingly.

Edited September 21 by Majestic

[Majestic]

Let's take two cases,

 

Player A - hits a 100 in first inning and a score of 2 in second inning. His average is 56.

 

Player B - scores a 30 in first inning and then a 26* in second inning. His average is 56.

 

Which player did better and is likely to win the man of match award?

[Lord]

5 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Could have been and should have been doesn't have a place in the game.

 

To make an impact, you have to do it before all 10 wickets are gone. If you can't do it till then, it is an useless knock. There is no value of your 13* or 23* with 10th wicket fallen. 

 

You should be rated based on how much you contributed to teams total and not on how much you could because there is no way to prove if that 13* would have been 13 out or a century. These knocks do nothing but just are stats booster which I am not willing to give undeservingly.

 

So you are saying no.8 and no. 5 have equal chances to score a ton

 

How would someone coming lower down contribute as much as one batting higher on average?

[Sean Bradley]

Dhoni was the worst WK batter to have captained in test cricket for India. He was an ODI legend no doubt, but guy was an absolute dud when it came to test cricket. Lacked intelligence and cricketing acumen for Test matches. Don't rate his batting at all. 

[Majestic]

27 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

So you are saying no.8 and no. 5 have equal chances to score a ton

 

How would someone coming lower down contribute as much as one batting higher on average?

No, I didn't said that. It seems you didn't read my post fully.

 

If you read again, I am talking about the innings where a player scores less than 50 and is not out and the knock is inconsequential( in terms of value addition), then such knocks doesn't mean anything.

 

A player can score 30 and 20 odd cameos, stay not out and inflate his stats, that won't make him a better batsman than the one who played longer innings. As example, let's compare two players and their batting performance over a 2-test series:-

 

Player A - 53, 55, 54, 54

 

Average - 54

 

Player B - 30, 28*, 12*, 45

 

Average - 57.5

 

Their batting average would suggest that player B did better than player A as he averages more than him but player A did much better than player B with bat and is likely to be remembered as one of the best batter of that series rather than player B. That 28* and 12* gives player B an undue advantage and helps boost his average considerably more than he deserved. Those type of not outs need to be eliminated.

Edited September 21 by Majestic

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, Majestic said:

No, I didn't said that. It seems you didn't read my post fully.

 

If you read again, I am talking about the innings where a player scores less than 50 and is not out and the knock is inconsequential( in terms of value addition), then such knocks doesn't mean anything.

 

A player can score 30 and 20 odd cameos, stay not out and inflate his stats, that won't make him a better batsman than the one who played longer innings. As example, let's compare two players and their batting performance over a 2-test series:-

 

Player A - 53, 55, 54, 54

 

Average - 54

 

Player B - 30, 28*, 12*, 45

 

Average - 57.5

 

Their batting average would suggest that player B did better than player A as he averages more than him but player A did much better than player B with bat and is likely to be remembered as one of the best batter of that series rather than player B. That 28* and 12* gives player B an undue advantage and helps boost his average considerably more than he deserved. Those type of not outs need to be eliminated.

 

But if you do that, you cannot compare batsmen batting at two different positions. Longer innings are more probable higher up.

 

Its not a batsmen's fault if other batsmen collapse leaving him stranded. He has to bat accordingly and may even have to throw his wicket towards the end going for big shots. Numbers can't tell everything.