Epic historical documentary on the Vijayanagara Empire

[bharathh]

 

Always a big fan of this guys' historical documentaries. Yes it's long but the production and quality is outstanding. Really worth a watch. 

 

That said - how sad is it that we don't know how to brand something like this in our country. Just been there once - but the place left an impression that cannot be forgotten. Islam is ther worst thing that happened to the subcontinent. 

 

[Mariyam]

2 hours ago, bharathh said:

 

Always a big fan of this guys' historical documentaries. Yes it's long but the production and quality is outstanding. Really worth a watch. 

 

That said - how sad is it that we don't know how to brand something like this in our country. Just been there once - but the place left an impression that cannot be forgotten. Islam is ther worst thing that happened to the subcontinent. 

 

        

[kepler37b]

On 4/16/2025 at 9:55 AM, bharathh said:

 

Always a big fan of this guys' historical documentaries. Yes it's long but the production and quality is outstanding. Really worth a watch. 

 

That said - how sad is it that we don't know how to brand something like this in our country. Just been there once - but the place left an impression that cannot be forgotten. Islam is ther worst thing that happened to the subcontinent. 

 

*To the world.

[Muloghonto]

On 4/16/2025 at 1:00 AM, Mariyam said:

        

The savagery of your religion is truly stunning, wouldn't you say ? Wiping out local culture and replacing it with Arabism. Such a signature move of an actual god and it's people surely. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

War with Kalinga

The Gajapatis of Odisha ruled a vast land comprising parts of Bengal, Andhra, and Odisha. Krishnadevaraya's success at Ummatur provided the necessary impetus to carry his campaign into the coastal Andhra region, which was under the control of the Gajapati king Prataparudra Deva. The Vijayanagara army laid siege to the Udayagiri fort in 1512. The campaign lasted for a year before the Gajapati army disintegrated due to starvation. 

 

Krishnadevaraya offered prayers at Tirupati thereafter, along with his wives Tirumala Devi and Chinnama Devi. The Gajapati army was then met at Kondaveedu. The armies of Vijayanagara, after establishing a siege for a few months, began to retreat due to heavy casualties. Timmarusu discovered a secret entrance to the unguarded eastern gate of the fort and launched a night attack. This culminated with the capture of the fort and the imprisonment of Prince Virabhadra, the son of Prataparudra Deva. Vasireddy Mallikharjuna Nayaka took over as governor of Kondaveedu thereafter.

 

 

Krishnadevaraya planned an invasion of Kalinga, but Prataparudra learned of this plan and formulated his own plan to defeat the former at the fort of Kalinganagar. Timmarusu discovered Prataparudra's plan by bribing a Telugu deserter from the service of Prataparudra. When the Vijayanagara Empire did invade, Prataprudra was driven to Cuttack, the capital of the Gajapati Kingdom. Prataparudra eventually surrendered to the Vijayanagara Empire, and gave his daughter, Princess Jaganmohini, in marriage to Krishnadevaraya. Krishnadevaraya returned all the lands that the Vijayanagara Empire had captured north of the Krishna River; this made the Krishna river the boundary between the Vijayanagara and Gajapati Kingdoms.

 

B2C's questions: 

Why invade? 

How is it different from other invasions and conquests? 

How is it a false equivalency to compare this brutal invasion (I mean, if you were a Kalinga vaasi, wouldn't you think that?)

 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

And then this:

 

---------------------------------------------

Krishnadevaraya established friendly relations with the Portuguese in Goa in 1510. The Emperor obtained guns and Arabian horses from the Portuguese merchants. He also utilized Portuguese expertise to improve the water supply to the Vijayanagara capital.

----------------------------------------------

 

How is this okay?

[Lone Wolf]

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

The savagery of your religion is truly stunning, wouldn't you say ? Wiping out local culture and replacing it with Arabism. Such a signature move of an actual god and it's people surely. 

This signature move is why they built one of the largest empires on the planet based on rule of terror and sword.

Tribalism has always triumphed throughout the course of history.

 

That being said old man Rama Raya had it coming.  Made a lot of Strategic blunders, overplayed his hand which led to finally Bahamanis getting united for a final showdown.

Edited April 18 by Lone Wolf

[Lone Wolf]

7 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

And then this:

 

---------------------------------------------

Krishnadevaraya established friendly relations with the Portuguese in Goa in 1510. The Emperor obtained guns and Arabian horses from the Portuguese merchants. He also utilized Portuguese expertise to improve the water supply to the Vijayanagara capital.

----------------------------------------------

 

How is this okay?

It is perfectly okay.  Vijayanagara and Bahamanis were quite advanced than their Rajput and Mughal counterparts in military tech and strategy.

Modernization is always welcome.  Deva Raya was a genius.  

[Gollum]

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

The savagery of your religion is truly stunning, wouldn't you say ? Wiping out local culture and replacing it with Arabism. Such a signature move of an actual god and it's people surely. 

Bhai you know @Mariyam as well as any other old timer on this forum. No need to get personal, she is a fair person and always calls out what is wrong, a wonderful human being. Even if she disagrees with someone you don't see her posting in anger. Always well structured, rational, civil discourse. I have never seen a more patient, tolerant, open minded poster on this forum, never even seen her swear.......though I am not a fan of her IPL/Bollywood takes, topic for another day !!!!

 

Besides almost all of us don't independently choose our religion/culture/dietary habits/mother tongue. We have very little control over these things and in most cases simply follow our parents/siblings/elders, or circumstances like where we were born, went to school, work etc. 

 

Let us not make fellow posters feel bad over stuff that happened centuries ago. Especially not kind, gentle folks like yam. 

 

Don't take it the wrong way, you too are one of my favorite posters here. I don't mind when you have a go at some of the other ICFers who give it back or don't mind tussles (in fact even enjoyed when you ripped apart that Canadian Khalistani to shreds), but not yam. 

Edited April 18 by Gollum

[Gollum]

End of Vijayanagara empire saddens me most in our history. Got scarred when I read about it some 10 years back, try to avoid this topic as much as possible. 

 

Most cold-hearted betrayal when you think about the tolerance and goodwill showed by that regime towards all its subjects. Mir Jafar faltu mein badnaam hai. 

[kepler37b]

10 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

The savagery of your religion is truly stunning, wouldn't you say ? Wiping out local culture and replacing it with Arabism. Such a signature move of an actual god and it's people surely. 

Dharmic faiths are born in a peaceful and prosperous society. Hence they are deeply contemplative.

 

Desert cults are born amidst violence and scarcity. No wonder they condone every vice known to man, provided it is perpetrated on "others".

[kepler37b]

9 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

War with Kalinga

The Gajapatis of Odisha ruled a vast land comprising parts of Bengal, Andhra, and Odisha. Krishnadevaraya's success at Ummatur provided the necessary impetus to carry his campaign into the coastal Andhra region, which was under the control of the Gajapati king Prataparudra Deva. The Vijayanagara army laid siege to the Udayagiri fort in 1512. The campaign lasted for a year before the Gajapati army disintegrated due to starvation. 

 

Krishnadevaraya offered prayers at Tirupati thereafter, along with his wives Tirumala Devi and Chinnama Devi. The Gajapati army was then met at Kondaveedu. The armies of Vijayanagara, after establishing a siege for a few months, began to retreat due to heavy casualties. Timmarusu discovered a secret entrance to the unguarded eastern gate of the fort and launched a night attack. This culminated with the capture of the fort and the imprisonment of Prince Virabhadra, the son of Prataparudra Deva. Vasireddy Mallikharjuna Nayaka took over as governor of Kondaveedu thereafter.

 

 

Krishnadevaraya planned an invasion of Kalinga, but Prataparudra learned of this plan and formulated his own plan to defeat the former at the fort of Kalinganagar. Timmarusu discovered Prataparudra's plan by bribing a Telugu deserter from the service of Prataparudra. When the Vijayanagara Empire did invade, Prataprudra was driven to Cuttack, the capital of the Gajapati Kingdom. Prataparudra eventually surrendered to the Vijayanagara Empire, and gave his daughter, Princess Jaganmohini, in marriage to Krishnadevaraya. Krishnadevaraya returned all the lands that the Vijayanagara Empire had captured north of the Krishna River; this made the Krishna river the boundary between the Vijayanagara and Gajapati Kingdoms.

 

B2C's questions: 

Why invade? 

How is it different from other invasions and conquests? 

How is it a false equivalency to compare this brutal invasion (I mean, if you were a Kalinga vaasi, wouldn't you think that?)

 

 

Hindu kings are very less likely to commit large scale organized rape and destruction and torching of cities. 

 

I am sure if maharaja Ranjith singh captured mecca, he would have never touched the holy shrines of islam.

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

End of Vijayanagara empire saddens me most in our history. Got scarred when I read about it some 10 years back, try to avoid this topic as much as possible. 

 

Most cold-hearted betrayal when you think about the tolerance and goodwill showed by that regime towards all its subjects. Mir Jafar faltu mein badnaam hai. 

Gilani Brothers 

[singhvivek141]

13 minutes ago, kepler37b said:

Dharmic faiths are born in a peaceful and prosperous society. Hence they are deeply contemplative.

 

Desert cults are born amidst violence and scarcity. No wonder they condone every vice known to man, provided it is perpetrated on "others".

Absolutely,

It's been in Indian history that war was always between two kings and their armies. But the general public weren't harmed purposefully (unexpected casualties may happen).

 

When desert cults attacked Dahir Sen of Sindh, killed him and captured his daughters. This was something unheard or atleast uncommon.

 

 

[kepler37b]

2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

This signature move is why they built one of the largest empires on the planet based on rule of terror and sword.

Tribalism has always triumphed throughout the course of history.

 

That being said old man Rama Raya had it coming.  Made a lot of Strategic blunders, overplayed his hand which led to finally Bahamanis getting united for a final showdown.

In indian context, muslim invaders had better tactics and equipment. And a vast reserve of men that are ready to die for their religion. 

 

For example, babur fought with trained cavalry, matchlocks and cannons. While rana sanga still used the infantry based tactics and was utterly humbled.

 

May be this land promotes aversion to violence and war. For example, the native muslims were no match to invading ones. The former succumbed so easily.

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, kepler37b said:

In indian context, muslim invaders had better tactics and equipment. And a vast reserve of men that are ready to die for their religion. 

 

For example, babur fought with trained cavalry, matchlocks and cannons. While rana sanga still used the infantry based tactics and was utterly humbled.

 

May be this land promotes aversion to violence and war. For example, the native muslims were no match to invading ones. The former succumbed so easily.

 

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

Absolutely,

It's been in Indian history that war was always between two kings and their armies. But the general public weren't harmed purposefully (unexpected casualties may happen).

 

When desert cults attacked Dahir Sen of Sindh, killed him and captured his daughters. This was something unheard or atleast uncommon.

 

 

It was not uncommon... Alexander during his Indian invasion of the northwest genocided entire Population.  Place where he was struck fatally by an arrow of an Mallan warrior (Multan)... It was completely wiped out without a trace.  He did the same to Afghanistan tribes en route. 

Huns did the same later on. 

 

 

Mass scale conversion was the only different thing Arabs brought.  This was never seen before.  Buddhism was wiped out as a result of this

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, kepler37b said:

In indian context, muslim invaders had better tactics and equipment. And a vast reserve of men that are ready to die for their religion. 

 

For example, babur fought with trained cavalry, matchlocks and cannons. While rana sanga still used the infantry based tactics and was utterly humbled.

 

May be this land promotes aversion to violence and war. For example, the native muslims were no match to invading ones. The former succumbed so easily.

Tactically yes Indians struggled.  Rajputs were extremely backward in dealing with Turks. Once they managed to get past North...  Bhaktiyar especially faced no resistance whatsoever in Bihar and Bengal with his tiny contingent and massacred with impunity.  Until he encountered Ahoms of Assam whom he admired in his memoirs.  Only places which had stronger forts survived his onslaught.

 

Only exception among Indian Muslim rulers was Ala Uddin when it comes to invaders.. he actually maintained a huge standing army.  And successfully repelled Mongol invasions.  And later on used it against native Indian kingdoms.  Perhaps was most imperialist monarch since Bindusara.

 

Rest of them always struggled. Timur absolutely wrecked them, then Babur with his cannons.

 

Shahjahan emptied royal treasury on his failed attempts in invading Safavids of Iran for some useless stretch of land in Kandahar.

Edited April 18 by Lone Wolf

[rangeelaraja]

3 hours ago, Gollum said:

Bhai you know @Mariyam as well as any other old timer on this forum. No need to get personal, she is a fair person and always calls out what is wrong, a wonderful human being. Even if she disagrees with someone you don't see her posting in anger. Always well structured, rational, civil discourse. I have never seen a more patient, tolerant, open minded poster on this forum, never even seen her swear.......though I am not a fan of her IPL/Bollywood takes, topic for another day !!!!

 

Besides almost all of us don't independently choose our religion/culture/dietary habits/mother tongue. We have very little control over these things and in most cases simply follow our parents/siblings/elders, or circumstances like where we were born, went to school, work etc. 

 

Let us not make fellow posters feel bad over stuff that happened centuries ago. Especially not kind, gentle folks like yam. 

 

Don't take it the wrong way, you too are one of my favorite posters here. I don't mind when you have a go at some of the other ICFers who give it back or don't mind tussles (in fact even enjoyed when you ripped apart that Canadian Khalistani to shreds), but not yam. 

 

@Gollum  - So well put. I don't think @Muloghonto  bhai meant any malice, it just came across like that.  

 

@Mariyam is a better Indian than many Hindu nationalists put together. She wears her Indian identity with such pride. There has been alot of venom here against that religion and the anger maybe legitimate alot of times - given the history of violence - but not even once has she been even mildly insulting towards Hinduism - most people would get provoked  atleast once after hearing such trash for so long and repeatedly.   I too have had many a disagreements with her - but she has always been very respectful.  She is a model Indian.

 

 

[Muloghonto]

11 hours ago, Gollum said:

Bhai you know @Mariyam as well as any other old timer on this forum. No need to get personal, she is a fair person and always calls out what is wrong, a wonderful human being. Even if she disagrees with someone you don't see her posting in anger. Always well structured, rational, civil discourse. I have never seen a more patient, tolerant, open minded poster on this forum, never even seen her swear.......though I am not a fan of her IPL/Bollywood takes, topic for another day !!!!

 

Besides almost all of us don't independently choose our religion/culture/dietary habits/mother tongue. We have very little control over these things and in most cases simply follow our parents/siblings/elders, or circumstances like where we were born, went to school, work etc. 

 

Let us not make fellow posters feel bad over stuff that happened centuries ago. Especially not kind, gentle folks like yam. 

 

Don't take it the wrong way, you too are one of my favorite posters here. I don't mind when you have a go at some of the other ICFers who give it back or don't mind tussles (in fact even enjoyed when you ripped apart that Canadian Khalistani to shreds), but not yam. 

You can ask @Mariyam herself what i think of her and if i have defended her on this forum and consider he a friend or not.

I am the old school type - i believe if you are friends, you should be able to talk and say anything to your friends that have rationale backing it, no matter how sensitive. My biggest audience in real life for islam and christianity ARE my muslim and christian friends - and when they speak about hinduism from their POV, i dont shut them down coz it will upset their friend either. Notice my words to her are not a single word of swearing, cussing, etc because thats mark of honest inquiry.

 

Maryam is capable of showing respect to a person depending on how a person behaves and STILL criticise or love that person's beliefs. I am the same type of person and my pont isnt to get them to feel bad or guilty for what others did in the past, but use the past to assess the CLAIMS of the past - if a book from the past claims to be from God, then behaviour of followers of said book determines if the book is from a god or a demon. Duh.

Islam likes to go around saying  'look my book is so great and error free' ( as if its the only error free published text on the planet lol) but completely ignore the point 'well if this book is from god, why are this books followers one of ONLY TWO religions in history to mass murder their own religion's sects in name of god ?! wtf ? how come people of god kill their own variations willy nilly but demonworshipper idolators dont ? '

 

And this view of judging a creed by its history is rational to me,since i believe in karma more than drama ( and all words are ultimately drama).

 

Edited April 18 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

9 hours ago, kepler37b said:

Hindu kings are very less likely to commit large scale organized rape and destruction and torching of cities. 

 

I am sure if maharaja Ranjith singh captured mecca, he would have never touched the holy shrines of islam.

hindu kings fought like post reneissance europe. How many cities did Napoleon torch ? how many cities did Bismark torch ? Answer is 'almost never'. why ? because they didnt fight each other like muslims vs pagans or christians vs pagans, where other side is demon worshippers fit to be wiped out, they fought to CLAIM those cities and lands as theirs, rule them, reap the revenue reward etc.

This is why archaeological evidence of city destruction is extremely rare in indian archaeology in pre-islamic period and almost ALL evidence of pre-islamic city destruction in Indian subcontinent is clustered around 450 AD - 550 AD period in the northern half.
What happened in this period ? ZE HUNS

 

Hindu kings didnt do leave cities alone coz they were saintly kings, each and every one better human than each and every muslim king (though they were to most, given how much muslim kings kill their own fathers to become kings in history), its because their faith didnt see other religions to be fit for termination and complex, revenue-earning cities, etc. to be subject to being blown up.

One newly emergent view in history, especially indian history, is  that we barely know much of Indian history and almost never will to a large degree, unless we find some lost treasure troves, because turns out, Indian history is not like rome or china, where kings do things, but that of an advanced capitalist society, where CORPORATIONS, aka Srenis, play a decisive role in determing/causing wars.

 

Take for eg, the most momentous achievement of Indian history in foreign conquest - Tamil subjugation of Srivijaya and Lambakanna, with settling Chola princes in Lambakanna - the first EVER imperial conquest in human history that involves trans-oceanic conquest.

Its main cause ? A powerful Tamil corporation-sreni - most likely the cardammom sreni - brought the whole thing to Rajendra Chola's attention and provided ships to be the backbone of the chola fleet. This whole 'jagan seth funding siraj ud daula, that seth funding that mughal emperor' etc. goes back thousands of years in India.

 

Even at time of Ajatshatru forming the early days of Magadh empire, we see evidence of strong Sreni involvement.

Turns out we are the OG masters of war-dhando.

 

This one thing- Srenis- completely disappeared from Indian history once muslims started to rule, because muslims did not have corporate entites but guilds and they did not engage in advanced finances required for having corporate entities coz muslims were big no-no for compound interest in most of their financial history. But the ability to influence and forment war by paisa didnt go away, not the knowhow, so it transformed into 'behind the shadows jagan seth from open corporate involvement like muh iraq war' under Islamic rule.

 

But this Sreni involvement is ALSO a strong reason why Indian kings did go running around blowing up cities : when seth-ji funds u for war, he wants u to capture a city and let him get good deals with its residents for selling them things, so he can recover his paisa 10 fold. LAST thing Sethji wants is to find a whole dead city and nobody to sell stuff to to recover the paisa he gave YOU so you could go train a lakh men to go fight a war and win this dam city .

This is ALSO the same exact reason why Euros from around 1500s onwards didnt go aroudn blowing up each other's cities when they won a war - coz they had the hanseatic league, the highest form of non corporate guild entity in European world before modern finance ( Europe didnt get quite as afvanced as Srenis hence not true corporations in the premodern period).

 

 

 

Edited April 18 by Muloghonto