Saudi and Pak sign NATO like mutual defense agreement

[singhvivek141]

22 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

There no new contracts signed for conventional submarines yet.. last one  first Scorpene submarine contract was  inked in October 2005.

Project 75I isn't approved since 2 decades now itna delay hai that Submarine fleet is on the verge of being old and redundant.

Last I heard German design is still in chai biscuit phase.  IDRW reported that contract won't be signed until next year 

 

MDL production line is idle for so many years... Just like Nashik Facility of Sukhois MKi since 2017.  Whoever made that call to stop it's production deserves Russian Gulag treatment.  Now HAL saying restarting it would take time.

 

Not a single AIP powered sub

DRDO not able to make its own AIP fuel cell.

 

Frigates, Corvettes, Destroyer Mcvms no new orders in last 10 years as well.

 

Timeline push karte karte 2035 kar di hai.. earlier was 2027

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newindianexpress.com/amp/story/nation/2025/Jul/07/17-warships-nine-submarines-await-approval

 

 

Rafale M will provide some much needed firepower to our Aircraft carriers when it comes otherwise Aircraft hai hi kaha hai?

 

 

You are taking about 60-70% but Bhai 30% will be enough for deterrence abhi 10% bhi nahi hai 

 

 

Defense ka industries nahi setup karenge to aise hi hoga. Also, indigenous capacity building is need of the hour.
Just like we have multiple manufacturing units of BHEL, SAIL...we also need the same for HAL as well.
If North is a problem due to China/Pak factor, then setup in South itself, but have atleast 10-12 factories working round the clock.

Similary, we have limited docks in Kochi, Vizag, Mumbai, Kolkata and Goa....why don't have additional capacities in towns like Ratnagiri, Mangalore, Kanniyakumari, Kakinada etc. We have such a huge coastline, use that to our advantage. Build a dock in Nicobar island as well.

Once more factories will comeup, this so called resource problem will go away. Within few years, we can easily product a workforce who will be expert in manufacturing at a large scale.

Lots of engineers who graduate from B tier colleges are joining Software, despite doing their degree in ECE, Mechanical, Civil, Electrical...coz they don't see any options in other sectors. No need to always run behind IIT's,...there is sizeable workforce in NIT's and decent state colleges as well. Hire them from 3rd year, make them do the internship for a year or two. Funds arent the problem, problem is the focus from the govt.

 

Bihar elections hai, saara effort udhar ja raha hai, instead the focus should be on signing the MRFA deals with Rafale's or Sukhoi's. Both are offering lucrative deals to us, choose whats the best and move ahead. No point delaying the things.

[singhvivek141]

29 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Interesting thought this sudden shift would mean US is pulling the strings from behind.

 

our economy can only be slowed through these tactics.

Late 2020's to early 2030's.. anything can happen.

War is imminent. Everyone can see that global order is shifting, the existing powers will do everything to stop it.
Russia sending drones to Polish and Romanian airspace is a challenge to NATO. Eu nations are weak militarily and US can't engage with Russia directly. 
NATO nations are worried that US may not be able to protect them anymore. Taiwan is most worried about the same.
One misstep from China or Russia will push US to its limits. It wants to avoid the same and India moving to Russia-China camp makes it's position even harder.
Hence, US will have to keep the project Pakistan on, to distract India.

[rangeelaraja]

MEA reacts….it will be interesting to see what is actually done to neutralize this pact. 
 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

4 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

It is expected from a leech like Pakistan. To use the religion card to defame Islam and hide their atrocities/hatred against non Islamists. Also, its weird that Pak didnt do this tieup with Turkey but rather with Saudi.

 

Anyway, we neednt panic, our internal focus should be to deepen our military, space and economic power projection. While external focus should be on strengthening the relations wherever possible.

 

India-Russia ties are stronger, relations with China is improving at a diplomatic level, we have our strong ties with Israel.

 

Use this to expand our influence, be polite on a diplomatic level, be aggressive militarily, be ruthless in Information Warfare.

We have to aggressively improve diplomatic relations with China. Hostile regimes are all around us and Indo-US relations have never been lower. 

 

If these policy failures had happened under the Congress , we would've lambasted them. 

 

At this point, India has no real allies apart from Russia and Israel and they are fighting their own wars. 

[kepler37b]

2 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

MEA reacts….it will be interesting to see what is actually done to neutralize this pact. 
 

 

Saudi's have so many economic interests in India. Surprised that they signed this. Saudi crown prince has been trying to be good with India and Modi.

[ravishingravi]

36 minutes ago, kepler37b said:

Saudi's have so many economic interests in India. Surprised that they signed this. Saudi crown prince has been trying to be good with India and Modi.

 

This doesn't mean anything. MEA reacted. Thats enough for now. India will do what it needs to do. 

[mishra]

I think we need to look at it objectively with problem statement of each country depending on heirarchy.

US:

1. Pakistan is needed for n number of reasons but mostly as a Base. But Pakistanis have been mooving away to Chinese Sphere of Influence.

2. Trump has pulled the Middle East out of Chinese sphere of influence. But Strikes by Israel on Qatar was counterproductive to those efforts.

3. Current internationation Oil Prices are very low. They dont want too high or too low ie Close to 100 USD

4. Israel must be able to take over Gaza

5. Iranians need to be taught lesson but Pakistan has to feel secure to provide bases . Specially Energy Security in event of War.

 

EU:

1. They want Gas and oil replinishment due to Gaps created by closing Russian tap. But dont want Energy price to be too high. At the end, price is coming out of their pocket. Its around 400 Billion USD. Just 25% price hike means 100 Billion USD.

 

China:

1. It wants US out of its backyard.Not just Taiwan but Pakistan too. So its using Loans, Interest, weapons and infra mechanism. They realised that after OP SIndoor Pakistan has been told by US, Gabbar ke taap se tumako Sirf Gabbar hi bachaa Sakataa hai. What it means is either Modi would have gone all the way or should have given daily briefing that we will stop here if Pakistan stops.

 

Pakistan:

1. It did realise Indian wont listen to China in event of War. Their geography is such that India will penetrate.

2. They need to buy US weapons and get away with Chinese money/weapons

3. A deal with Unmah give them money to get out of the Chinese Clutches

4.  Energy Security even in event of war is provided by Saudis and they dont need Iranians.

 

Final point: I dont see Saudis giving money to Pakistan for free, but they will give opportunity to Pakistan to earn money to buy US weapons.

 

How? We all know DJT family has Crypto Deal with Pakistan. But crypto will come as payment mechanism Saudis refineries in Pakistan. Expectations from Pakistan are above. Saudis want protection without fighting and Nuclear option is with Pakistan. AKA Pakistan can use the nuclear Bomb to defend Saudis but Saudis are not responsible, If Pakistan using nuclear option to meet the contract. SO Risk on Israel is massive. Beacuse today Pakistan sold nuclear Umbrella to Saudis, tomorrow it may sell it to Qatar.

 

PS: 1. If I am to bet, I will be putting money on Pakistanis using nukes or bombing ranians and Yemenis to protect Saudis then fighting Israelis  or protecting themselves

PS: 2. Google BCCI Bank. How Pakistanis Saudis and Americans were swindling money during 1970s and 1980s and 1990s and fighting USSR

 

 

Edited September 18, 2025 by mishra

[mishra]

Above is very dangerous situation, We should go and tell Israelis that they can use our airbases in case they want to eradicate Nuclear Bomb threat on themselves. Its very reasonable reaction to Saudis Meddling in our region.

[deathmonger]

At the end of the day Pak is a 370 billion economy growing at 2-3%. India is a 4.2 trillion economy growing at 6-7%.

 

Pakistan is useful as a military ally but that is what it will always be. Very similar to North Korea.

 

The economic divergence will grow even more because Pakistan will remain an economic basketcase.

 

Saudi won't go against India and might be even useful keeping them in rein, which is all we want.

[deathmonger]

3 hours ago, kepler37b said:

Saudi's have so many economic interests in India. Surprised that they signed this. Saudi crown prince has been trying to be good with India and Modi.

Doesn't affect India.

 

They want Pakistani help for ME fights.

 

They won't interfere with India.

[mishra]

@deathmonger Basics: Pakistan by genesis will always attack India.

 

A strong Pakistan is serious threat to Safety and Security of India. What happened in 80s and 90s in Kashmir was direct result of a Stable Strong Pakistan. We can not and must NOT allow it to happen ever again till its guranteed that Pakistan has fundmentally disowned its basis of creation.  I am not principalled. I am realist. 

 

Saudi action is most hostile action by Saudis against India. They can shove their oil up their assess. What if India Israel sign a NATO like treaty. Will Saudis be happy to buy it?

 

Need of Hour is a India irael treaty, allowing Israelis access to Pakistan via a mutual treaty. We can not let the Middle East Pakistan ball rolling again.

Edited September 18, 2025 by mishra

[deathmonger]

2 minutes ago, mishra said:

@deathmonger Basics: Pakistan by genesis will always attack India.

 

A strong Pakistan is serious threat to Safety and Security of India. What happened in 80s and 90s in Kashmir was direct result of a Stable Strong Pakistan. We can not and must NOT allow it. I am not principalled. I am realist. 

 

Need of Hour is allowing Israelis access to Pakistan via a mutual treaty. We can not let the Middle East Pakistan ball rolling again

Yup that is true as well.

 

Point is the economic gap will grow even bigger than it is now (and was in the 80s-90s)

 

India also has influence with Pak's masters to keep them on a leash.

 

But yes, should do everything to ensure Pakistan don't get extreme military advantage.

 

Israeli F-35s stationed around Kashmir and Punjab would surely irk Pakistan haha.

 

BLA/TTP should also be supported in any way possible.

Edited September 18, 2025 by deathmonger

[mishra]

5 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

Yup that is true as well.

 

Point is the economic gap will grow even bigger than it is now (and was in the 80s-90s)

 

India also has influence with Pak's masters to keep them on a leash.

 

But yes, should do everything to ensure Pakistan don't get extreme military advantage.

 

Israeli F-35s stationed around Kashmir and Punjab would surely irk Pakistan haha.

 

BLA/TTP should also be supported in any way possible.

You dont react now, Pakistan will be emboldened, So will be Saudis. need of hour is to nip the bud. Let Pakistanis understand , their actions must  be based on What will be Indias reaction?

 

On BLA TTP, I think Iranians will also do their bit

Edited September 18, 2025 by mishra

[Vancouver]

It was already certain that Pakistan would defend Saudi's against Israel even before this agreement. So what changed for it to be made formal?

 

I guess Saudi's are realizing the limitations of it's own armed forces despite buying latest and greatest American goodies. If they bankroll Pakistan, Pakistan can have diverse fleet of machinery, they do not have to buy just American and be sitting ducks. 

 

Anyways this is best news for Pakistan, one of their biggest concern will be taken care of indefinitely. 

[Lone Wolf]

US is trying to squeeze us from all sides.  They are already there in Bangladesh.

Now this...  They won't ever let us get into Central Asia and link up with Russians.

Seems INSTC corridor is as good as dead now.

 

 

[randomGuy]

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

21 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

 

 

Baba Benaras is engagement seeker... Wait for confirmation.

[rangeelaraja]

1 hour ago, Vancouver said:

It was already certain that Pakistan would defend Saudi's against Israel even before this agreement. So what changed for it to be made formal?

 

I guess Saudi's are realizing the limitations of it's own armed forces despite buying latest and greatest American goodies. If they bankroll Pakistan, Pakistan can have diverse fleet of machinery, they do not have to buy just American and be sitting ducks. 

 

Anyways this is best news for Pakistan, one of their biggest concern will be taken care of indefinitely. 

I felt exactly the same ( as below ) as soon as this became news. That this is Saudis way of

expressing displeasure at us taking away their thunder in the energy business and buying our crude from Russia. 
 

Everything was great in the relationship till we were one of their biggest oil purchasing clients.
 

India should have learnt long time back that the Gulf countries are also the biggest hypocrites  in the world - as long as you buy oil and gas from them - you can do no wrong - biggest proof of this ? — See how not a single Arabic / Muslim country ( be it Saudi or Qatar or Turkey ) utters a single word against Chinese treatment of Uighurs Muslims — because China has bought them off with energy deals. This is their true reality - @IndianRenegade @mishra @Lone Wolf

 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

8 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

We have to aggressively improve diplomatic relations with China. Hostile regimes are all around us and Indo-US relations have never been lower. 

 

If these policy failures had happened under the Congress , we would've lambasted them. 

 

At this point, India has no real allies apart from Russia and Israel and they are fighting their own wars. 

Plus both are on the opposite camps.
Anyway, key thing is we need to strategize around these variables. Pakistan will always be a mercenary nation, and has a broken economy with no future. Every supreme commander is really to sell whatever possible to get their piece of bread and then run away.

What we can do

1. Strengthen the military ties with Russia and Israel, we have our industrial bases in Haifa, negotiate with Israel to have Indian boots on the ground in Israel, in exchange give them an air base to station their fighter jets. While, Russia needs us to manufacture Su-57 on a large scale and also to buy it in big numbers. Given our past positive experiences with Russia jets, we should go ahead and sign a deal of 70-90 aircrafts (4 or 5 squadrons), anyway it's less costly that Rafale and have better stealth (comparatively as well).

 

2. Expand our military arsenal, create heavy stockpile of weapons which should help us sustain a high to medium intensity war for atleast 1 year. 

3. Look East, expand the trade ties with ASEAN nations. They're fed up with Chinese bullying and need a reliable partner like India to rise up. Most of them have positive attitude towards India along with Africa and we need to use that. 

 

4. Engage talks with Saudi's, MBS is a reasonable person. He does have his vision, but Saudi is currently facing immense challenge with Turkish ambitions to restart the Khilafat movement and become the leader of Islamic world. I don't think there are many concerns from oil point of view. Saudi's want to keep their position intact as Turkey  may use Houthis to cause issues in the Saudi.

 

5. Keep relations with China cordial, we need them because of Rare earth materials (our extraction tech is still in infancy). China-US are sitting at the opposite ends and we're one of the few nations who are considered as "important swing nations". We may have to choose a side in few years, but not now. We need to engage with both. A huge amount of our population works in US and Middle East, any extreme decision from our end on Foreign policy may impact them.

[singhvivek141]

37 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

I felt exactly the same ( as below ) as soon as this became news. That this is Saudis way of

expressing displeasure at us taking away their thunder in the energy business and buying our crude from Russia. 
 

Everything was great in the relationship till we were one of their biggest oil purchasing clients.
 

India should have learnt long time back that the Gulf countries are also the biggest hypocrites  in the world - as long as you buy oil and gas from them - you can do no wrong - biggest proof of this ? — See how not a single Arabic / Muslim country ( be it Saudi or Qatar or Turkey ) utters a single word against Chinese treatment of Uighurs Muslims — because China has bought them off with energy deals. This is their true reality - @IndianRenegade @mishra @Lone Wolf

 

 

 

I still see this as more of US playing the game.
We're not buying much from Saudi's anyway, their oil extraction and refining capability is limited and anyway their supply to West is sufficient.
Tarrifs didn't work as expected, while Russia is now violating the airspace of NATO countries, now Pentagon have decided to change their ways and are using Pakistan's alliance with Saudi to put an external pressure. This also make sense as Iran or Turkey may use Houthis to target Saudi for their own interests. 

Saudi don't have a very strong military of their own and Pakistan is an army who can be taken on loan to defend their borders.
Ofcourse, there might be many other variables at play as well, but I see this as a pressure tactic from US.

Edited September 18, 2025 by singhvivek141