Fast Bowlers of 70's-80's: FACT or FICTION

[Vijay.Sharma]

What I glean from the cricket literature is the following (by the way, folks who were following cricket before 1984/85 please correct me where I am wrong). A "fast" bowler would be one who bowls consistently above 140 kmph or say 87-88 mph. Although tech wasn't available, people could obviously make out which bowlers bowled really fast and which ones could crank it up only occasionally. I think intuitively players reflected upon the bowlers of their days as and when speed guns started being used. For ex - say the speed gun was introduced in 1979. Imran, Olding, Thommo, Lillee bowl and the gun shows around 140. Now there would be batsmen, say Sobes, who would've faced both Olding and Wes Hall. So Sobers can tell if Olding is as fast as Hall was. If yes, then that gives a rough idea that Hall also bowled around 140. As the guns improve they show Marshall, Wasim, and McDermott bowling at 145. Now Greg Chappell faced both Marshall and Thommo so he can roughly estimate that Thommo could actually have been at 150 because gun sez Marshall and Wasim are hitting 145. You get the idea... Chronology of the fast bowlers (i.e. bowling > 140 during their peaks) and express bowlers (> 150). Passing of the baton is as follows: 1. Fred the Demon Spofforth (fast) 2. Larwood (express?) 3. Tate (fast) 4. Learie Constantine (fast) 5. Amar Singh (fast?) 6. Mohammed Nissar (fast) 7. Lindwall (fast) 8. Fred Trueman (fast) 9. Frank Tyson (express) 10. Roy Gilchrist (express) 11. Wesley Hall (fast) 12. Fazal Mehmood (fast) 13. Peter Pollock (fast) 14. John Snow (fast) 15. Dennis Lillee (fast) 16. Jeff Thomson (express) 17. Imran Khan (fast) 18. Andy Roberts (fast) 19. Mike Procter (fast?) 20. Michael Holding (fast) 21. Richard Hadlee (fast) 22. Bob Willis (fast) 23. Mike Hendricks (fast) 24. Kapil Dev (fast) 25. Rodney Hogg (express) 26. Sylvester Clarke (fast) 27. Malcolm Marshall (express) 28. Bruce Reid (fast) 29. Patrick Patterson (express) 30. Craig McDermott (fast) 31. Wasim Akram (express) 32. Rumesh Ratnayake (fast) 33. Danny Morrison (fast) 34. Curtly Ambrose (fast) 35. Waqar Younis (express) 36. Ian Bishop (fast) 37. Allan Donald (express) 38. Javagal Srinath (fast) 39. Devon Malcolm (fast) 40. Glenn McGrath (fast) 41. Lance Kluesener (fast) 42. Darren Gough (fast) 43. Dion Nash (fast?) 44. Andrew Caddick (fast) 45. Shoaib Akthar (express) 46. Jason Gillespie (fast) 47. Brett Lee (express) 48. Mkhaya Ntini (fast) 49. Henry Olonga (fast) 50. Zaheer Khan (fast) 51. Mohammed Sami (fast) 52. Andrew Flintoff (fast) 53. Stephen Harmisson (fast) 54. Nuwan Zoysa (fast) 55. Shane Bond (fast) 56. James Anderson (fast) 57. Fidel Edwards (fast) 58. Dilhara Fernando (fast) 59. Dale Steyn (fast) 60. Lasith Malinga (fast) 61. Sreesanth (fast) 62. Mohammed Asif (fast) 63. Mitchell Johnson (fast) 64. Jerome Taylor (fast) 65. Shaun Tait (express) 66. Stuart Broad (fast) 67. Chris Tremlett (fast) 68. Morne Morkel (fast) 69. Ishant Sharma (fast) 70. Ben Hilfenhaus (fast) 71. Peter Siddle (fast?) 72. Mohammed Amir (fast) 73. Kemar Roach (fast) 74. Wahab Riaz (fast)

[Sooda]

Just breezing through that list both Maurice Tate and Fazal Mahmood were not 140+ almost for sure. Medium pace cut and swing bowlers

[Vijay.Sharma]

Just breezing through that list both Maurice Tate and Fazal Mahmood were not 140+ almost for sure. Medium pace cut and swing bowlers

Really? I am not too sure about Tate but I thought Fazal was Pak's grand dad of fast bowlers (excluding Nissar after the partition) There were some other bowlers too who bowled fast and some express but either they didn't have the quality to play longer or were done by injury. Mohammed Zahid from Pak comes to mind...he was express and made his debut before Shoaib. Then there was Brett Schultz from SA who was fast

[sarcastic]

Michael Holding is express. So is Imran Khan (at least for a best part of his career). Not all the people you put in Fast are in the same league of speed all their careers. I don't know how often Zak was faster than 140 except may be in his first half of career when he was not really world-class like now.

[vvvslaxman]

Michael Holding is express. So is Imran Khan (at least for a best part of his career). Not all the people you put in Fast are in the same league of speed not all their careers. I don't know how often Zak was faster than 140 except may be in his first half of career when he was not really world-class like now.

THere was atleast one instance Boycott said he couldn't see the ball in broady day light. Zak is not an express pace bowler but a high class swing bowler.

[express bowling]

In every sport which requires some form of physical ability -- parameters like power, speed, tenacity etc. has increased in absolute terms. This is due to the use of permitted drugs, non-permitted drugs and steroids, much better food supplements, a lot of research in the areas of sports science, bio-mechanics and fitness, use of better shoes and equipments etc. In every sport where speed, power or time has been measured for a long time, such readings have got better with time generally, barring a couple of freaks with supernormal abilities, due to the factors that I have mentioned. Just consider sports like sprinting, running, swimming, weight lifting, tennis serve speed even with the modern graphite raquets etc. In cricket also, I am sure, bowlers like Thompson, Holding etc, who really threatened batsmen, would have bowled atleast 5k quicker if they had access to modern day permitted drugs, food supplements, shoes , physical training methods etc. But to say that all the fast bowlers of the seventies were quicker or even as quick as modern day bowling speeds in absolute terms is childish to say the least. It may be possible that there were a couple of freaks like Thommo who actually bowled between 150k to 155k then . If he did that then today he would have bowled quicker than that. All bowlers could not have had 150k speeds those days -- it is just not scientific. Some of the biggest reasons why those bowlers looked more hostile than current day bowlers are – bad quality or lack of protective gear, no maximum bouncer rule, uncovered pitches, mostly physically unfit batsmen compared to today ( although they were more courageous ). I am sure bowlers like Thompson, Holding, Roberts, Marshall etc. would have bowled between 140 to 153k if they bowled today but they almost certainly bowled a bit slower than that in absolute terms in the 70s and early 80s. This does not in any way take away from their ability or achievements but is a natural phenomenon. I am surprised to see the adverse reactions of a couple of posters who are calling for banning this thread. This is an excellent thread.

[sarcastic]

THere was atleast one instance Boycott said he couldn't see the ball in broady day light. Zak is not an express pace bowler but a high class swing bowler.

I see you are talking about Holding here. I believe we don't have any disagreement.

[Lurker]

Lille-Thommo or WI bowlers were more about intimidation.If they tried those kind of tactics or those lengths in today's era,they will be smashed around the park by even some of our IPL legends.

Really? WOW! That sums up your cricketing language, and lack thereof. Enjoy the ignorance thats you. :two_thumbs_up:

[Sooda]

Really? I am not too sure about Tate but I thought Fazal was Pak's grand dad of fast bowlers (excluding Nissar after the partition) There were some other bowlers too who bowled fast and some express but either they didn't have the quality to play longer or were done by injury. Mohammed Zahid from Pak comes to mind...he was express and made his debut before Shoaib. Then there was Brett Schultz from SA who was fast

Both were definitely fast medium at most. Fazal was a superb swing bowler and was nearly selected for a India squad prior to partition but was not because he was deemed too young. Indian cricket history would have been quite different had he played for India and stayed on in the country. Im sure Tate was a spin bowler to begin with, then converted himself to a medium pacer

[maniac]

Really? WOW! That sums up your cricketing language, and lack thereof. Enjoy the ignorance thats you. :two_thumbs_up:

Lurker Bhai...Why do you always pick my posts out of context?Looks like you just piclk and choose from my entire post to suit your desire of pwning me:winky:. All I was trying to justify is that just because we see likes of Rohit sharma,Vlathaty smash the likes of Tait and Morkel in IPL.I specifically picked these 2 for their express pace and they still can easily intimidate a tailender with full gear with fast and short pitch length bowling. For eg;Bowlers like Fidel Edwards and Malinga who have express pace but don't have too much variation can be easily decoded by the batsman in the modern day game by using their feet or play ugly shots like Dilscoop etc.Can anyone try to attempt the same kind of shots against them if they were not fully protected? How many variations did the bowlers in the 70's and 80's use?Bowlers like Thompson and some of the WI legends were not known for their swing or seam abilities.They were known to intimidate the batsman by trying to rip their heads off...if this factor was taken out of the equation how different would they be from current one dimensional express pace bowlers like Tait,Edwards etc.?

[ravishingravi]

With less protection for batsmen,less scrutiny through technology,home umpires advantage and more inconsistent pitches,bowlers of that era got more hype than they deserved.They were good but I guess they are overhyped.Before I am torn into pieces by some posters who oppose this let me give you an example if you play a bowler like M.Sami or M.Johnson without wearing the protection players wear today wouldn't you be shaking in your boots because let us admit average as they are they still are pretty quick. Lille-Thommo or WI bowlers were more about intimidation.If they tried those kind of tactics or those lengths in today's era,they will be smashed around the park by even some of our IPL legends. Except for Marshall who was both quick and had guile ala Steyn these days other leading bowlers were Hadlee,Kapil,Botham and Imran who were not super phaaast but relied on seam and swing. Even in recent times some of the most succesful bowelrs like Mcgrath,Pollock,Vaas and even Akram who wasn't super phaast by Paki standards have acheived more compared to Bond and Akthar Zaheer is one of the leading pace bowler today.

Wow!! Lillee and Thompson would be smashed by IPL legends. And who would be these legends

[King]

There is this opinion anyone that played cricket prior 2000 is just waste of time. Sure thing with technology and coaching aids cricket players are much better than in the past but that doesn't mean folks couldn't bowl fast in the good old days. The past century bowlers played far less cricket than now and obviously their body was in good shape. The amount of injuries they had also was way less than what we see today. Some of the military medium pace bowlers these days are breaking down so frequently they should be wrapped in wool and preserved. We can't blame them considering the different formats of cricket that is prevalent currently and also the amount of cricket played these days. In that case obviously players from the last century must be way quicker given their body was in great shape, weren't bogged down by as many injuries and barely bowled a few overs in a day. The amount of trainings and gym work they did was far less. I reckon they were rawer than the current bowlers. The current crop of bowlers are injured most of the times, barely play couple of series' in a year, spend eternity on the treadmill and gym, settle into a nice 120 k bowlers that can use slower ball all day. Genuinely how many can truly be considered fast and play regularly without missing many a matches can you guys list?

[maniac]

Wow!! Lillee and Thompson would be smashed by IPL legends. And who would be these legends

why not when Lee,Tait,Malinga,Steyn,Morkel,Zaheer,can be smashed around by the likes of Vijay,Rohit,Valathy,Venu,RayaduYkp etc etc than how can you guarantee Lilee and Thompson would not be embarassed the same way. I am talikng strictly in terms of IPL here.I am not saying the names I have mentioned would do the same to the all the bowlers I mentioned at the test level but all I am trying to say is we fear the above mentioned modern day bowlers less because of the same example I have mentioned.Since Lille and co. have not gone through the same process we find them more intimidating than they actually are.

[maniac]

^ to also add to the point,Infact I saw this video posted by you where Holding bowls 5-6 Short balls to a batsman not wearing protective gear. Can he do that today.NO because 1st he cannot bowl more than one bouncer per over 2nd there is no guarantee he will be given a similar kind of pitch 3rd Batsman now charge down the track to express bowlers and play ridiculous shots like helicopter and dilscoops

[rkt.india]

What I glean from the cricket literature is the following (by the way, folks who were following cricket before 1984/85 please correct me where I am wrong). A "fast" bowler would be one who bowls consistently above 140 kmph or say 87-88 mph. Although tech wasn't available, people could obviously make out which bowlers bowled really fast and which ones could crank it up only occasionally. I think intuitively players reflected upon the bowlers of their days as and when speed guns started being used. For ex - say the speed gun was introduced in 1979. Imran, Olding, Thommo, Lillee bowl and the gun shows around 140. Now there would be batsmen, say Sobes, who would've faced both Olding and Wes Hall. So Sobers can tell if Olding is as fast as Hall was. If yes, then that gives a rough idea that Hall also bowled around 140. As the guns improve they show Marshall, Wasim, and McDermott bowling at 145. Now Greg Chappell faced both Marshall and Thommo so he can roughly estimate that Thommo could actually have been at 150 because gun sez Marshall and Wasim are hitting 145. You get the idea... Chronology of the fast bowlers (i.e. bowling > 140 during their peaks) and express bowlers (> 150). Passing of the baton is as follows: 1. Fred the Demon Spofforth (fast) 2. Larwood (express?) 3. Tate (fast) 4. Learie Constantine (fast) 5. Amar Singh (fast?) 6. Mohammed Nissar (fast) 7. Lindwall (fast) 8. Fred Trueman (fast) 9. Frank Tyson (express) 10. Roy Gilchrist (express) 11. Wesley Hall (fast) 12. Fazal Mehmood (fast) 13. Peter Pollock (fast) 14. John Snow (fast) 15. Dennis Lillee (fast) 16. Jeff Thomson (express) 17. Imran Khan (fast) 18. Andy Roberts (fast) 19. Mike Procter (fast?) 20. Michael Holding (fast) 21. Richard Hadlee (fast) 22. Bob Willis (fast) 23. Mike Hendricks (fast) 24. Kapil Dev (fast) 25. Rodney Hogg (express) 26. Sylvester Clarke (fast) 27. Malcolm Marshall (express) 28. Bruce Reid (fast) 29. Patrick Patterson (express) 30. Craig McDermott (fast) 31. Wasim Akram (express) 32. Rumesh Ratnayake (fast) 33. Danny Morrison (fast) 34. Curtly Ambrose (fast) 35. Waqar Younis (express) 36. Ian Bishop (fast) 37. Allan Donald (express) 38. Javagal Srinath (fast) 39. Devon Malcolm (fast) 40. Glenn McGrath (fast) 41. Lance Kluesener (fast) 42. Darren Gough (fast) 43. Dion Nash (fast?) 44. Andrew Caddick (fast) 45. Shoaib Akthar (express) 46. Jason Gillespie (fast) 47. Brett Lee (express) 48. Mkhaya Ntini (fast) 49. Henry Olonga (fast) 50. Zaheer Khan (fast) 51. Mohammed Sami (fast) 52. Andrew Flintoff (fast) 53. Stephen Harmisson (fast) 54. Nuwan Zoysa (fast) 55. Shane Bond (fast) 56. James Anderson (fast) 57. Fidel Edwards (fast) 58. Dilhara Fernando (fast) 59. Dale Steyn (fast) 60. Lasith Malinga (fast) 61. Sreesanth (fast) 62. Mohammed Asif (fast) 63. Mitchell Johnson (fast) 64. Jerome Taylor (fast) 65. Shaun Tait (express) 66. Stuart Broad (fast) 67. Chris Tremlett (fast) 68. Morne Morkel (fast) 69. Ishant Sharma (fast) 70. Ben Hilfenhaus (fast) 71. Peter Siddle (fast?) 72. Mohammed Amir (fast) 73. Kemar Roach (fast) 74. Wahab Riaz (fast)

Rodeny Hogg was not express with what video I have seen of him. Zoysa was medium not fast. you forgot Shane Bond was experss who has bowled 160kPH. Asif is not fast is only medium fast Fidel Edwards and Harmison are express 150 K bowler. Ian Bishop was express, i saw his video of bowling to Robin Smith of a test in 1990 in youtube and he was seriously fast when i compare him to Walsh who was bowling from the other end. Larwood too was not express but fast 135-145 category, does not look faster than that in videos.

[Deleted_User_1]

Actually thommo did record 100 mph in 1975 in a match. Just looks at how Rod Marsh is collecting the ball behind the wicket. Looks like he was getting hot by a speeding train. LOL...... The Aussie quicks of the 70s and WI pace battery were genuinely fast. No doubt about that. That is why I rate Sunny so highly as opening batsman. He had the technique to survive this.

[rkt.india]

why not when Lee,Tait,Malinga,Steyn,Morkel,Zaheer,can be smashed around by the likes of Vijay,Rohit,Valathy,Venu,RayaduYkp etc etc than how can you guarantee Lilee and Thompson would not be embarassed the same way. I am talikng strictly in terms of IPL here.I am not saying the names I have mentioned would do the same to the all the bowlers I mentioned at the test level but all I am trying to say is we fear the above mentioned modern day bowlers less because of the same example I have mentioned.Since Lille and co. have not gone through the same process we find them more intimidating than they actually are.

Yeah...When likes of Shoiab AKhtar and Lee has been smashed..past pacers would have also been smashed in IPL and T20 because of no fear factor now days with full protection gear and bouncer rule. Batsmen just need to fly their bats like Sword an even edges carry for 6s. Cricket has changed a lot in the last 30 years especially limited overs cricket with the advent of T20.

[Maundy Gregory]

nevertheless it's Thompson's word, he would love to proclaim himself as a 100mph bowler, and he goes "I was half charged". As he mentioned, he clocked 99mph at the keeper's glove, then why does the competition video state his fastest was 148km/hr = 92mph? If anything he should have been clocked at 110mph just after point of release! That chatshow video is a load of bull, with imran and thomson massaging each other's egos.

I saw Thommo (and Imran, Holding, Lillee, Marshall...); he was genuinely fast, as they all were, but he was the fastest of the lot.

[Vijay.Sharma]

Rodeny Hogg was not express with what video I have seen of him. Zoysa was medium not fast. you forgot Shane Bond was experss who has bowled 160kPH. Asif is not fast is only medium fast Fidel Edwards and Harmison are express 150 K bowler. Ian Bishop was express' date=' i saw his video of bowling to Robin Smith of a test in 1990 in youtube and he was seriously fast when i compare him to Walsh who was bowling from the other end. Larwood too was not express but fast 135-145 category, does not look faster than that in videos.[/quote']Yea I thought Bishop was really express when he came on the scene but a back injury cut his pace down to "just" fast. the way I have categorized them as fast and express is based on some amount of sustenance, say at least 3 seasons, at a certain level of pace. Srinath bowled over 150 in the 96-97 tour to SA. I think he bowled the fastest ball in that series too at 156, Kluesener bowled 154 which was hit by Robin Singh for a six. But Srinath apart from a period of 8-12 months did not sustain his pace above 150. However he continued to hit 144 even in the 2003 world cup...I just saw the highlights of the India-Eng game the other night. Zak bowled over 140 regularly. Bond is also Srinath's case...he hit 150+ for a brief period of just a few months before one more injury cut him short but settled to 140+. Same case with Edwards and Harmisson. They bowled a few deliveries and the odd series above 150 but usually in the high 140s. As for, Hogg, I've read many times that he was seriously fast and Gavva himself said it. I'd like to believe larwood was express...well it is got more to do with the fact that he could cut Bradman down to half. If you look at the videos from the site that BB brought our attention to, Bradman seems to be the only batsman of that era who probably had a good back foot technique plus his technique resembles the post 60s fellows. I know I know I know that Jardine spotted a "fault" in his backfoot technique which inspired his leg theory but in the context of the time Bradman was super. Maybe Larwood bowled express only in that series so ya he can be downgraded to "fast". Also, could it be that you are subconsciously considering high 140s as fast? I ask this because I am looking at anything over 140 as fast so a bowler like Broad who doesn't really go over 147 but definitely bowls a lot between 140-145, I am considering him as fast. Anyway, a review of the real express fellows then would be - Frank Tyson, Roy Gilchrist, Jeff Thomson, Imran Khan, Malcolm Marshall, Patrick Patterson, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Shoaib Akthar, Brett Lee, Tatu tuta tate.

[mishra]

In cricket also, I am sure, bowlers like Thompson, Holding etc, who really threatened batsmen, would have bowled atleast 5k quicker if they had access to modern day permitted drugs, food supplements, shoes , physical training methods etc.

That is mother of everything..... Apart from inherent natural ability and dedication of sportsman, accuracy and speed of sportsman is very much dependent on training and medicines etc. Technology used , collective imagination, bigger professional professional pool is driving innovation and precision in the art of every sport, not just Kirkut