kruiser Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 This opinion piece in Hindu echoed a lot of my thoughts on the matter: http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/mknarayanan-writes-on-the-kashmir-unrest/article9204505.ece?homepage=true Quote The ‘unattached’ militant involved in the current violence is a new phenomenon — and a far cry from the erstwhile ‘foreign’ militants. Kashmir had become accustomed since end-1988 to the presence of foreign militants and their involvement in stoking violence. The ‘Afghan jihad’ of the 1980s had a mesmerising effect, and provided much of the inspiration for the subsequent agitations in Kashmir during the 1990s. As the Afghan War wound down, many of the LeT and other modules operating in Kashmir had some Afghanistan-returned jihadis. Operating alongside the foreign militants were the relatively more indigenous Hizbul Mujahideen members, though they also drew inspiration and support from Pakistan. The Hizbul Mujahideen sported a distinctly different ‘terror sub-culture’ and identified more closely with the aspirations of the local Kashmiri youth. By the turn of the century, the Hizbul Mujahideen had lost out to the more powerful Pakistani outfits, though it still remained in contention. Quote Treating the current turmoil in the Valley as an extension of the earlier spells of unrest could be highly simplistic. Since end-2013, signs of a change in atmosphere had become visible. This was apparently missed. Even now, and in the wake of the extraordinary situation that prevails in the Valley (several weeks of curfew, a total media blackout, and spontaneous eruption of street violence), no meaningful attempt has been made to understand what is happening beneath the surface. Few seem to think that this could well become a dangerous watershed in the troubled history of Kashmir. Read the entire article, it is free of jingoism and raises some valid questions that we should be discussing. I believe that we cannot win any battle today with just brute force. We can repel attacks, kill terrorists, but we cannot counter rumors and half-truths that act as recruitment posters. Yes, the first blunder was made when the government idly watched the exodus of Pandits from the valley. At that time, extremism was a minority fringe which could have been easily squashed. However, now I am afraid we might make a even bigger mistake that will be irrevocable; if the common man on the ground is against the Indian occupation, no power can keep the valley stabilized then. Indian leadership (Modi appears pragmatic so far) must not let the next generation alienate completely from the Indian mindset. IMO, it is now a battle of capturing the mind, not killing the terrorists. PS. I do not want to devolve this thread into Pak bashing. Yes Pak & China have vested interests in the valley and they will do everything to fuel the situation in Kashmir. We can beat them and I have full faith in our army to tackle the external threat, it is the internal indigenous demand for revolt I am worried about. @Muloghonto, @radhika, @Vilander, @sandeep, @Book_Worm and others, interested in your views.
Muloghonto Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 Quite a good article and Kashmir is in grave danger of passing into the state of 'home-grown insurgency' stage. The solution is simple but harsh: we give up PoK, **BUT** we also repeal article 370. Yes, it will cause some unrest. And yes, it CAN lead to some erosion of Kashmiri culture. But as long as ethnic Kashmiris stay a healthy majority, it wouldn't impinge on their culture. We need to make Kashmir *ours*. Even if immigration comes from Hyderabadi or Bengali or Malayali Muslims, its still better outcome.
Vilander Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 lots of respect for Hindu and Narayanan. The article lists the reality that we face in Kashmir very well, and provides solutions amounting to zero. So basically the author wants Indians to come up with a solution, so respectfully here is what i think; Some scoundrel militant can be called as a revolutionary after death agreed but it should hardly matter to GOI. Its highly important that while we strive to safeguard the rights of Kashmiris to protest ( throw less stones though and not be killed with pellets) and also the rights of the like of Narayanan to write such pieces about 'youth,delhi,paradigm shift' etc, we should also ensure that every burhan wani and his terrorist handlers are stopped..violently. There can be no compromise on land as a resource. No Indian government should ever be able to afford to loose land to pak, it should stay that way for eternity, what ever is the cost. Every attempt to covet Indian territory should be responded bloodily.
zen Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 (edited) Quote To try to retrieve this situation, it is necessary to recognise that, in marked contrast to earlier phases of trouble in Kashmir, the present movement is almost entirely home grown. The spontaneity of many ‘mini-uprisings’ demands a different explanation from earlier ones, for it smacks of near total alienation of an entire generation of young Kashmiris angry with the present state of affairs. Many are even willing to commit suicide to vent their anger. Simply repeating phrases like ‘Insaniyat, Kashmiriyat and Jamhooriat’, or reiterating our commitment to Article 370 of the Constitution, removal of the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act (AFSPA), or provision of additional doses of development assistance, will not resonate with the current generation of agitators. Suggestions and ideas thrown up in the course of meetings of the Round Tables, Working Groups, and Group of Interlocutors (2007-2011) will likewise meet with little response (even though had they been acted upon at the time, the present situation might not have occurred). Talking to separatist leaders may make good copy, but they are irrelevant in today’s context, and out of sync with the younger generations now in revolt. IMO, it is a BS article highlighting the fact that people who don't know about the issue should stop commenting on it. Democracy does not mean everyone can share his views irrespective of whether they know about the topic or not However, I do agree with the crux of the article that "things are not the same". May be what has changed is that ‘Insaniyat, Kashmiriyat and Jamhooriat’ have gone missing over the years. To understand the problem, a few basic questions need to be answered: Why are not all Kashmiris a part of the independence movement? Why does the Muslim majority Kashmir want independence from India? Why do people of other religions get booted out by the separatist? Why are ISIS and Pak flags seen in Kashmir? Do the Muslim majority want to create a theocratic state in Kashmir? Where is the support coming in for the armed conflict? So why have ‘Insaniyat, Kashmiriyat and Jamhooriat’ gone missing in Kashmir? One of the answer lies to the spread of Wahhabism. The new theocratic state wave in Kashmir parallels the rise of radicalization in other parts of the world including in Pakistan, Taliban, ISIS, etc. Edited October 10, 2016 by zen Vilander 1
Vilander Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 The funny thing is Modi seems to be making friendly overtures to Saudi. Wahabism and takfiri ideology is the central problem. Its apparent that if they can these folks will kill all non believers in their nation.
panther Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 48 minutes ago, zen said: @panther may agree with the video It's a good reminder.
zen Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 ^ Nice summary of radical Islam .... topics that the video discusses include: 9/11 is not a date that OBL chose randomly. The significance of 9/11 in Islamic calendar. 9/11 is when an united army arrived at the Gates of Vienna to end the Ottoman Empire 217M people killed by the Islamic caliphate from its rise till 1924 without the use of advanced weapons, butchered by the sword Discrimination against Jews and people of other religions. Yellow star given to Jews, an Islamic invention of the 9th century Why some of the Jews practices are Incorporated in Islam Current movement an effort to resurrect the caliphate Law of Taqiya (lying and deception) "10 years" treaty signed by Mohammad and why peace treaty by Islamic counties means nothing
zen Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 (edited) ^ The Project which also provides insights on what has rubbed on to Kashmir and the emergence new wave of radicals there Who allows kids out to throw stones (below)? Edited October 10, 2016 by zen
kruiser Posted October 10, 2016 Author Posted October 10, 2016 So I am in minority here :), that was expected! Some good points raised above. I have been to srinagar multiple times in past 5years for work. Though it is not the most affected area, I do get a sense of common sentiment. No the common people do not want azadi from India. But they do want the army to be removed. They want the right to peaceful protest like the rest of India. The problem is, more than the rest of India, there are a greater number of anti social elements or rather anti India elements in Kashmir. So the peaceful protests don't remain peaceful any more. To the posters above, according to you, what is the solution? Force and then overwhelming force? Why don't we simply nuke the whole valley? I think stronger border security, isolation of Pakistan and other providers of arms, plus open dialog with the people of Kashmir can still work. Majority are intelligent enough to not side with Pakistan. And my personal opinion is, if there are no longer any Hindu citizens in affected areas, who is army there to protect? Just have army presence at the town limits and checkpoints, let them protest inside all they want! And last, pellet guns are inhuman. Use water canon, tear gas, rubber bullets or even live ammunition.
Muloghonto Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 Repeal article 370 and make Kashmir 60-75% Kashmiri. That way, a referendum never loses Kashmir from India, thus easing India's need to control Kashmir so tightly and leading to a reduction in the army present in the urban areas. kruiser and randomGuy 2
zen Posted October 10, 2016 Posted October 10, 2016 Also youtube child militancy and child suicide bombers in Pak
zen Posted October 11, 2016 Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, kruiser said: To the posters above, according to you, what is the solution? Force and then overwhelming force? Why don't we simply nuke the whole valley? I think stronger border security, isolation of Pakistan and other providers of arms, plus open dialog with the people of Kashmir can still work. Majority are intelligent enough to not side with Pakistan. And my personal opinion is, if there are no longer any Hindu citizens in affected areas, who is army there to protect? Just have army presence at the town limits and checkpoints, let them protest inside all they want! And last, pellet guns are inhuman. Use water canon, tear gas, rubber bullets or even live ammunition. The solution depends upon how you frame the problem. For me the problem is the fight b/w democratic and secular forces vs. radical islamic forces that wants to implement shaira law and that see non-muslims as enemies Ind vs Pak or Kashmiri Muslims vs Kashmiri Pandits is a battle fought out within this framework. If there was no conflict of ideologies, what is the need for this confrontation To fight this, first we have to undertsand the problem and frame it correctly, speak out against radical islamic and sepratist forces, ensure that religious places are not propagating against other religions, muslim leaders must be encouraged to take a stand against these forces, money and weapons flowing in should be stopped .... Because of inaction, an entire gen, if not two, has been lost to propoganda and hatred in Kashmir Earlier, there was no army in the valley. That resulted in the Kashmiri pandits being driven out at gun point. If the army goes out, we may see these guys not protesting with stones but shooting with AK 47. And because the seperatist want to wage this kind of war, they would prefer the army to be out And most of the Indian forces are already on LoC and border, and still we have these guys unnecessarily attacking forces with stones Unless, the ideological difference are not addressed, this could continue until one side runs out of fuel. Right now, Ind needs to go stern against the sepratists to send a clear mesg that anti-Ind stand will not be tolerated. Mosques need to be monitored too to see if they dont preach against Ind. And it should also be conveyed that no foreign hand will be able to help the sepratists Ind also has to take back the PoK (Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Balistan), an Ind territory. Its occupation by Pakistan is the real issue, along with creating the environment where people who have had to leave because of Islamic militancy can return and live in Kashmir peacefully Edited October 11, 2016 by zen kruiser 1
BeautifulGame Posted October 11, 2016 Posted October 11, 2016 The article definitely hits a lot of home truth.We made lot of messes throughout our history that has ended up in this situation. Having article 370 where no other Indian can settle in Kashmir has completely isolated them from India.Whereas Pakistan has successfully located a lot Pakistanis in their part of Kashmir and China has done similarly in Tibet .And then allowing Pandits to be driven out Kashmir valley . Also when u have such a large army in middle of civilian population it will create human right issues .That is the reality not just isolated to our Army .Army the more army presence is there , there will be more resentment towards Indian govt from the local population .Yes Pakistan often supports terrorist insurgencies but we have to accept there is widespread resentment within Kashmiri people and we have to find a solution and a long term solution at that.There are also Indians and just hoping we can control it more military will only be short term solution at best and will only lead to more resentment in long term . Solution?Only major one I can think of is locating more Indians from other parts of India in Kashmir (which would mean repelling a major part of article 370).China has successfully implemented it in Tibet and Pakistan to an extent in POK as well. Perhaps also look a way to reduce the army presence among the civilian population.Figure a way to empower Kashmir police to control these riots or protests . .When u see a kid dying because of Pellet bullets by the army (regardless of the justification) it only makes the situation worse .It's a whole lot different when Police handle these law and order situations . Hopefully there are some major thinking going on in government for a long term solution .And it should be about gradual decline of army presence and more integration of India with Kashmir and vice versa .Despite all these we have already succeed in implementing democratic process for nearly 60 years and government in Kashmir against all odds and that should the template with which we should be looking for long term solution. kruiser 1
Vilander Posted October 11, 2016 Posted October 11, 2016 6 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said: The article definitely hits a lot of home truth.We made lot of messes throughout our history that has ended up in this situation. Having article 370 where no other Indian can settle in Kashmir has completely isolated them from India.Whereas Pakistan has successfully located a lot Pakistanis in their part of Kashmir and China has done similarly in Tibet .And then allowing Pandits to be driven out Kashmir valley . Also when u have such a large army in middle of civilian population it will create human right issues .That is the reality not just isolated to our Army .Army the more army presence is there , there will be more resentment towards Indian govt from the local population .Yes Pakistan often supports terrorist insurgencies but we have to accept there is widespread resentment within Kashmiri people and we have to find a solution and a long term solution at that.There are also Indians and just hoping we can control it more military will only be short term solution at best and will only lead to more resentment in long term . Solution?Only major one I can think of is locating more Indians from other parts of India in Kashmir (which would mean repelling a major part of article 370).China has successfully implemented it in Tibet and Pakistan to an extent in POK as well. Perhaps also look a way to reduce the army presence among the civilian population.Figure a way to empower Kashmir police to control these riots or protests . .When u see a kid dying because of Pellet bullets by the army (regardless of the justification) it only makes the situation worse .It's a whole lot different when Police handle these law and order situations . Hopefully there are some major thinking going on in government for a long term solution .And it should be about gradual decline of army presence and more integration of India with Kashmir and vice versa .Despite all these we have already succeed in implementing democratic process for nearly 60 years and government in Kashmir against all odds and that should the template with which we should be looking for long term solution. i am sure riots in Kashmir are handled by police. CAP is police, BSF,ITBP,CRPF are all police forces NSG too, they are as professional and able as other country military but they are police and report into home ministry not defence ministry. The SF that hit cross LOC strikes are Military just so that you make the difference.
beetle Posted October 11, 2016 Posted October 11, 2016 Kashmir is the little play ground for islamic militants . It will not be peaceful as long as islamic militancy is not irradiated completely world wide. A lot of these world militants have no specific regional cause now...it is a general 'we 'Vs 'them'. We can solve Kashmir issues....still there will be people who will be willing to come here and fight for 'whatever cause' is in with these mercenary islamic militant . Islamic militancy for some youth in the Muslim community is a 'glamorous job ' opportunity and a chance to be a hero in the community. Why would a handful of Indian muslim youth go an join ISIS ?What is their affinity to ISIS cause? Nothing. But still they go. You can solve the Kashmiir issue...but it will stll be a play ground for the professional militant . Like it was eliminated in Punjab.....ruthless and complete hammering is the only solution for these newer militants. randomGuy 1
Number Posted October 11, 2016 Posted October 11, 2016 The day army is removed from Kashmir, these militants groups with their favorite rage boys will form an armed radical Islamist group like what happened with Taliban in Afghanistan and ISIS in Iraq-Syria. Then Aazadi loving Kashmiris will have Sharia bamboo up their behind and miss Indian army. kruiser and chewy 2
The Outsider Posted October 16, 2016 Posted October 16, 2016 We don't consider Kashmiris as human. Once we cross that line as a nation a dialogue is possible.
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