"oh! okay" Kohli deadbats Harbhajan's pitch jibe

[rkt.india]

10 hours ago, gakgupta said:

It's unfair to compare a fading light with shining light...it is not an apple to apple comparison in 2012. Ideal comparison would be bhajji before 2009 vs ashwin post 2012...

Well, dhoni could be the best guy to comment, as he has seen both of them first hand.

Well, as a spectator I think both are very close when it comes to skillset. But there is huge difference in attitude. Bhajji never had plan B but ashwin always has plan B. Also ashwin 's willingness to learn n improve everyday is incredible.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

Actually, even Dhoni cannot comment on that because Bhajji was in steady decline post 2006-07. He had 21 5-fers during 2000-20006 in 49 matches, only 4 after that in 54 matches and during his peak of 2000-2006,  can only recall one pitch which was real raging turner and that was in 2004 Mumbai. Though i do not agree with him about this series. Pitches in this series have been pretty fair, far form being dust bowls. We even got a green pitch at Eden where pacers did most of the work for us.

[gakgupta]

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Here is my take on this whole 'Harbhajan-gate' :

 

1. Pitches : Pitches in India today are, generally speaking, slightly more spin-conductive than in the early 2000s. If you look close enough, the same tell-tale smidgen of dust-ball turning significantly etc. are there 10-15 years back, too. But it is starting to crack up by 2nd day, instead of third day. We've had the same amount of raging turners as last time as well. I do give Ashwin an advantage in the 'better suited home pitches' factor, but only marginally.

 

2. Batsmen: This is where my heart goes out to Harbhajan. He bowled to Mark Waugh, Steve Waugh, Matty Hayden in 2001, for example. Ashwin hasn't faced this type of spin dominant batsmen in a single lineup yet and dominated. South Africa comes closest, mostly because of ABDV and Amla, but beyond them, they all 'faf' around spinners in India. 

Generally speaking, the era of Harbhajan had better batsmen against spin: South Africa was a better side, simply because you still had ABDV (perhaps not at his dominant best, but a 25 year old ABDV is easily a must-have for all teams) but also had Kallis, pretty much the ONLY South African batsman i've seen who seems to have a plan to play spin on alien conditions.

 

Today's batsmen are less patient against spin and there is a good reason why in most of test cricket's history, its the spinners who have held down the economy rate category down: its because against spinners, if you wait- or rather- have the ability to wait- you will most likely prevail. 

 

 

3. Harby vs Ashwin :

This is the crux of the argument though. I've seen them both at their peaks. Ashwin currently is a better bowler than Harby ever was. Sad, but true. This is because of a few reasons.

 

a) Planning : this is a *huge* component of bowling- some say the difference between great and also-ran can sometimes simply be the ability to plan & adapt. Sometimes the difference between getting a 'set batsman' for 75 instead of letting him run away to 200+ is planning & ability to tweak your plan in real time. In this aspect, Harby was always a reactor and a slow & predictable reactor at that.

Tell me, how many times do people recall the sequence of 'Harby is bleeding singles & twos early on..Harby looks pissed...Harby is trying to keep batsmen quiet...bam, batsmen hit a few fours and Harby immediately asks Ganguly to spread the field ' ?  This is the difference between Harby & Ashwin : Ashwin has a certain, Warne-esque ability to get into batsmen's heads, appear cool & composed but hawkish- a lot like a Poker player actually. This is where Ashwin is significantly ahead.

 

b) Control : Harby had pretty good control on his deliveries- i'd say at his peak he had a slightly better control than Ashwin. But this is largely negated by the fact that Ashwin is not trying to bowl metronomically, while Harby defaulted to the metronomic style regularly. Ashwin tries more variations. I am not talking just about doosras, arm-balls, etc. i am also talking about varying spin, length, line, drift, loop,etc. 

If you try to do more stuff, you will obviously give up a bit of control. But there is a payoff potential : if you are good at more stuff and have decent control over those things, you'd atleast fox the batsmen more often and thus get more wickets. Ashwin satisfies this principle exceedingly well. 

 

c) Variations : This is again, where Harby gets owned by Ashwin. And its obvious to those who see them both bowl. Ashwin has excellent control, he occasionally drops more 'hit-me balls' as he is continuously playing around with the line, length, spin, loop, drift, flight etc. of things.

Harby bowled like he wanted to bowl the 'perfect, unhittable big turning, spitting off break' and if the pitch didnt help him, go into the 'bowl ordinary off breaks and 1 doosra/over' mode. But once Harby found his length, he'd exact a stranglehold on that length against all batsmen, until the plan didn't work. 

So though i sympathize with Harby, but Ashwin is a greater bowler than him at peak form so far. But Harby has been good for a very long time  and Ashwin still is just over half way where Harby ended up. So Ashwin still needs to get there.

 

Very well analysed...One of the best post i have seen on ICF.....

You should seriously try your hand on those professonal cricket websites (Cricinfo, CricBuzz...)

I am perplexed by your cricket acumen and also, the way your articulated your thoughts....

Personally, on thing i used to remember of Bhajji was.....he used to behave like a headless chicken once batsmen take him on.....while ashwin is much more patience

 

[gakgupta]

Some of the folks here are going over-board in praise of Ashwin. But pls remember, he can be called best spinner, when he starts taking wickets in England, NZ and Australia. 

 

There is no doubt in most of ht people mind when it comes to ASH Vs Bhajji....but is he, as good as Swann? I would want ASHWIN to be as good as SWANN but time will only tell....

 

PS: We don't expect ASHWIN to get 5 fifers in those countries but consistent 3 fifers is really good

[rkt.india]

41 minutes ago, gakgupta said:

Some of the folks here are going over-board in praise of Ashwin. But pls remember, he can be called best spinner, when he starts taking wickets in England, NZ and Australia. 

 

There is no doubt in most of ht people mind when it comes to ASH Vs Bhajji....but is he, as good as Swann? I would want ASHWIN to be as good as SWANN but time will only tell....

 

PS: We don't expect ASHWIN to get 5 fifers in those countries but consistent 3 fifers is really good

warne has a rubbish record in India but is still called a great, same with Murli in and Aus and India. They are still called greats.

[Ankit_sharma03]

57 minutes ago, MultiB48 said:

so insecure ,no wonder he started to struggle once ashwin came to the scene ,harbhajan should remember how kumble treated him ,kumble too could have called him a chucker and kept him out of the team and prolonged his own career.

Correct the whole mentality of individuals over team has been a problem ever since and sadly recent statements of gambhir n bhajji has made it more evident.  

All they care and whine about individual getting credit rather team winning. 

[gakgupta]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

warne has a rubbish record in India but is still called a great, same with Murli in and Aus and India. They are still called greats.

Yeah....Warne was bad only in india....he did well everywhere else....Going with that logic, ASHWIN cant be bad in all the 4 countries (England, NZ, australia and SA).

[Vilander]

5 hours ago, gakgupta said:

Yeah....Warne was bad only in india....he did well everywhere else....Going with that logic, ASHWIN cant be bad in all the 4 countries (England, NZ, australia and SA).

? what is your problem with this guy, he just won us a test series. LOL why such wrist slitting ?

[putrevus]

Bhajii was a brilliant bowler in his first 50 tests. The loop ,the dip and bounce he had it all. He never got to play on true tailor made pitches which Kumble and Ashwin got to play .he also had to play when SL, Australia, SA , WI and Pakistan were far better teams than they are now.The only team which we can say is stronger is England.

But he was very mediocre for last 50 tests and the most annoying thing was he never tried to accept his short comings.

[Ankit_sharma03]

Something the senior fellow can learn from Ashwin

 

 

[bowl_out]

@Ankit_sharma03 your tweet battle with Bhajji is on an NDTV news article  : http://sports.ndtv.com/news/virat-kohli-fends-off-harbhajan-singhs-comment-on-tailor-made-pitches-cricket-1473224?pfrom=home-topstories

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

@Ankit_sharma03 your tweet battle with Bhajji is on an NDTV news article  : http://sports.ndtv.com/news/virat-kohli-fends-off-harbhajan-singhs-comment-on-tailor-made-pitches-cricket-1473224?pfrom=home-topstories

 

 

It came in Mid-day to.....

Now i have started to fear his Ipl team owner might get me kidnapped

[Mosher]

3 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

It came in Mid-day to.....

Now i have started to fear his Ipl team owner might get me kidnapped

Good work Ankit You should have added ICF link in your comment too. This site needs more active users.

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, Mosher said:

Good work Ankit You should have added ICF link in your comment too. This site needs more active users.

MI owner ne ICF ko talla laga dena thaa.........

[bowl_out]

8 hours ago, gakgupta said:

Yeah....Warne was bad only in india....he did well everywhere else....Going with that logic, ASHWIN cant be bad in all the 4 countries (England, NZ, australia and SA).

Ashwin's overseas average from 2011-2014 = 64.5

Ashwin's overseas average from 2014-2016 = 26.4

 

And in the period till 2014, he has played 3 tests in Aus, 1 in SA and 2 in England.. He has not played a test in NZ...  

In both England tests, we bowled only once, and Ashwin got 3/74 in one of them. 

 

Bottom line : Give him some time and a few more tours overseas, he will improve.. Kumble had a horrible average during his first few tours to Aus as well

[Vilander]

3 hours ago, putrevus said:

Bhajii was a brilliant bowler in his first 50 tests. The loop ,the dip and bounce he had it all. He never got to play on true tailor made pitches which Kumble and Ashwin got to play .he also had to play when SL, Australia, SA , WI and Pakistan were far better teams than they are now.The only team which we can say is stronger is England.

But he was very mediocre for last 50 tests and the most annoying thing was he never tried to accept his short comings.

how are these pitches tailor made, i'd like to hear that.

[putrevus]

11 minutes ago, Vilander said:

how are these pitches tailor made, i'd like to hear that.

What are the pitches which were made for Kumble in 1990s when he along with Raju and Rajesh Chauhan were rolling over teams called and what are the pitches which Ashwin got to play in Australian and SA series called. Bhajji played in few matches along with Ashwin on the same pitches and was very ineffective but he was done being a good bowler long time back.

 

As Kohli said you can get cement track but as batsman you still need to know how to construct the innings and score big runs.Ashwin is doing great now but that does not mean Bhajji was useless, he was the main reason for Indian cricket's renaissance VVS gets all accolades but without Bhajji doing his thing Aussies would have won that series in canter.

Edited October 12, 2016 by putrevus

[Vilander]

18 minutes ago, putrevus said:

What are the pitches which were made for Kumble in 1990s when he along with Raju and Rajesh Chauhan were rolling over teams called and what are the pitches which Ashwin got to play in Australian and SA series called. Bhajji played in few matches along with Ashwin on the same pitches and was very ineffective but he was done being a good bowler long time back.

 

As Kohli said you can get cement track but as batsman you still need to know how to construct the innings and score big runs.Ashwin is doing great now but that does not mean Bhajji was useless, he was the main reason for Indian cricket's renaissance VVS gets all accolades but without Bhajji doing his thing Aussies would have won that series in canter.

1, Those are called pitches. You could call them Indian pitches if you like.

2, Why should Ashwin being great or not great have anything to do with Harbhajan ? And no one here has said Harbhajan is useless. Wonder why your perception of the same (Harbhajan being called useless) has lead you to call pitches that Ashwin bowls and those that Kumble bowled to be 'tailor' made suggesting a somewhat lesser skill element to their achievements. Whilst holding Harbhajans lesser returns to be greater on account of the non existence of the so called 'tailored' pitches.

 

Seems to me that you might be biased.

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by Vilander

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, Vilander said:

1, Those are called pitches. You could call them Indian pitches if you like.

2, Why should Ashwin being great or not great have anything to do with Harbhajan ? And no one here has said Harbhajan is useless. Wonder why your perception of the same (Harbhajan being called useless) has lead you to call pitches that Ashwin bowls and those that Kumble bowled to be 'tailor' made suggesting a somewhat lesser skill element to their achievements. Whilst holding Harbhajans lesser returns to be greater on account of the non existence of the so called 'tailored' pitches.

 

Seems to me that you might be biased.

 

I am not being biased at all, those pitches were not just Indian pitches , those pitches were produced to tailor Indian team's strengths but  in 2000s we saw pitches which had  some say for fast bowlers and Nagpur 2004 ( Ganguly famously called in sick)against Aussies or Ahmadabad 2007 against SA where Indians were rolled over for 70 all out by Steyn and co. Zak being a force to reckon with all happened when Bhajji was at his best.

Indian teams were getting slaughtered when they toured abroad if you do not know all these then you need to look back in history of Indian cricket on why pitches were changed in 2000s. That trend of tailor made pitches were brought back after Dhoni's lambs got slaughtered 1-15, hopefully we do not go back to those pitches.

 

Ashwin is a bowler who does not need those tailor made pitches.

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

 

A video showing the diff between how much revs they both put on ball, I knw bhajji was at his decline but just putting this to show the diff between the revs they both put in

[mancalledsting]

1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

A video showing the diff between how much revs they both put on ball, I knw bhajji was at his decline but just putting this to show the diff between the revs they both put in

Yaar, itni scientific analysis?