General Public slowly but surely rejecting the idea of secularism?

[Austin 3:!6]

There is no debate that secularism is the strongest pillar in a democracy. It allows equal right to all people irrespective of caste, race or religion. With that theory in mind, the largest democracies around the world always governed by political parties with secular views. India ruled by Congress since independence, Tori party ruled Britain for years and Democrats for US.

 

However left wingers have taken the term secularism to a new level and anyone who rejects their theory of secularism are termed as fascists. Anyone who calls the problem as it is without being politically correct appeasing minorities are being called as Bigots (Bhakts in India). Its not only common man though, even the media spread these false pseudo secular ideas. You either believe in their ideology or else you are a fascist.

But the common man gave a tight slap today to all leftists who claim themselves to be seculars.

 

In 2014 Lok Sabha elections, NaMo won by landslide victory was a message from Aam aadmi (general public and not AAPtards) in India that "Hey, we reject your notion of pseudo liberalism". It was slap on the face of left media like NDTV, CNN IBN, who left no stone unturned to tarnish the image of Modi. Mani Iyer said " Ek Chaiwala kabhi bhi is desh ka pradhan mantri nehi ban sakta". What a slap in his face by Indians.

 

Turn to 2016 June, PM Cameroon took a gamble on Brexit and asked for a referrendum. He was certain most people will vote to remain and allow EU to dervie the law for UK. Brits voted UK out of Brexit and in a way moved him out of PM seat prematurely.

 

This US election was the most astonishing. Left wingers targetted Trump on a daily basis, left media did a hate campaign towards Trump. But the common men in USA today rejected their fake secularism and did not wanted another 4 years of Hilary(Obama V2) government.

 

Go to any social media, you will still see the leftists are still crying, moaning, mocking. What bunch of sad idiots. But they need to understand that 3 big democracies in the world with proper democratic election have rejected their idea of leftology. What a sad day for left voters.

 

So are we seeing a norm that common people are fed up with this fake secularism and voting more for right wingers?

 

Well 3 big democracies suggest so.

 

 

 

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Edited November 9, 2016 by Austin 3:!6

[zen]

I dont think people are voting against secularism. If secularism is to be brought into this, I think ppl are voting to protect it by rejecting communities that want to live in secular societies but not practise secularism. And this in turn makes ppl want to protect their own culture which they feel is being attacked 

 

With the new media taking the center of the stage, a lot of things including how communities think is exposed

 

You have videos of ISIS enslaving women available, you have the likes of OBL declaring Jihad, you have stories of Pakistani community resorting to exploiting women of other religions in UK, etc. Brexit was basically a vote against immigration 

 

When you see Indians being attacked in Aus, it is also because of such reasons i.e. seen as ppl from a different culture / community who are there to take opportunities away from locals and spoil (not enhance) the local culture. Same with Mexicans coming to US

 

To get back on track, everyone needs to make an effort to respect other communities. And for that providing correct education and ethics are important 

 

As I say, the truth is usually somewhere in between 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tibarn]

Democracy doesn't require secularism, at all. 

 

The Indian and US/Brexit elections aren't really comparable:

 

The Indian election was not necessarily a rejection of secularism, it was partly a rejection of the pseudo-secularism that the hypocrite parties practice. There were other factors at play as well. Modi however has done nothing to alleviate the problem, he has ignored basically all relevant issues, so there is no guarantee that he will get those same voters next time.

 

The US/Brexit were similar in that those two countries are basically connected at the hip civilizationally. Their elections had absolutely nothing to do with secularism. The actual target was the left-wing social order, porous border policies, and partly a rejection of unrestricted free trade, particularly in the US's case. There is also the Islamic extremism component.    

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, zen said:

I dont think people are voting against secularism. If secularism is to be brought into this, I think ppl are voting to protect it by rejecting communities that want to live in secular societies but not practise secularism. And this in turn makes ppl want to protect their own culture which they feel is being attacked 

 

With the new media taking the center of the stage, a lot of things including how communities think is exposed

 

You have videos of ISIS enslaving women available, you have the likes of OBL declaring Jihad, you have stories of Pakistani community resorting to exploiting women of other religions in UK, etc. Brexit was basically a vote against immigration 

 

When you see Indians being attacked in Aus, it is also because of such reasons i.e. seen as ppl from a different culture / community who are there to take opportunities away from locals and spoil (not enhance) the local culture. Same with Mexicans coming to US

 

To get back on track, everyone needs to make an effort to respect other communities. And for that providing correct education and ethics are important 

 

As I say, the truth is usually somewhere in between 

 

 

Well put its basically terrorism,pakistan,ISIS etc, the usual issues with the world and most countries are turning to right wing to protect themselves. 

[Vilander]

20 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

Democracy doesn't require secularism, at all. 

 

The Indian and US/Brexit elections aren't really comparable:

 

The Indian election was not necessarily a rejection of secularism, it was partly a rejection of the pseudo-secularism that the hypocrite parties practice. There were other factors at play as well. Modi however has done nothing to alleviate the problem, he has ignored basically all relevant issues, so there is no guarantee that he will get those same voters next time.

 

The US/Brexit were similar in that those two countries are basically connected at the hip civilizationally. Their elections had absolutely nothing to do with secularism. The actual target was the left-wing social order, porous border policies, and partly a rejection of unrestricted free trade, particularly in the US's case. There is also the Islamic extremism component.    

There are similarities between pseudo secularism of India and left wing policies of US/UK.

[Austin 3:!6]

There are similarities between pseudo secularism of India and left wing policies of US/UK.

Thats correct.

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[mishra]

People voted for BREXIT. But I can guarantee BREXIT will NOT happen. People are against the establishment in which they see jobs and opportunities dwindling because politicians are in bed with Capitalists. They are not against Capitalism but they are against a system in which rich are getting richer while poor getting poorer.
 Social mobility is negligible.

 

Problem is earlier people thought it was politicians in bed with Capitalist. Now they think media is sold out to. Credibility of MSM is gone when it comes to reporting a big geo-political event.

 

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

Thats correct.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Secularism means religion is not party to politics or it has no influence on affairs of the state or education. In India it means minority appeasement, and religion plays a part if you are Muslim and must not if you are majority. This is pseudo secularism, this has lead to dilution of national power similar to left policies in US.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Vilander

[Vilander]

22 minutes ago, mishra said:

People voted for BREXIT. But I can guarantee BREXIT will NOT happen. People are against the establishment in which they see jobs and opportunities dwindling because politicians are in bed with Capitalists. They are not against Capitalism but they are against a system in which rich are getting richer while poor getting poorer.
 Social mobility is negligible.

 

Problem is earlier people thought it was politicians in bed with Capitalist. Now they think media is sold out to. Credibility of MSM is gone when it comes to reporting a big geo-political event.

 

You should see the CNN, the FOX to CNN defector Alisyn was all but tears when she interviewed the Trump campaign manager and some democrat senator in the morning, forget her name. I found it a bit too forced. They seem to be more polite than Indian ancors for sure, but yeah you can see the sides they are with, not net neutral.

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Vilander said:

There are similarities between pseudo secularism of India and left wing policies of US/UK.

You mean the same left wing policies that give us Canada,Germany, Scandinavia and basically all the countries the average man wants to live in more than the US, correct ?

 

[zen]

2 hours ago, Vilander said:

 

Well put its basically terrorism,pakistan,ISIS etc, the usual issues with the world and most countries are turning to right wing to protect themselves. 

Reminds me of the dialogue in Sholay when Thakur justifies hiring Veeru and Jai to catch Gabbar - "loha lohey ko kaat ta hai" 

[Vilander]

2 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

You mean the same left wing policies that give us Canada,Germany, Scandinavia and basically all the countries the average man wants to live in more than the US, correct ?

 

But Canada does not have a mexico or a turkey/syria problem ( i do not know about Scandinavia at all), i am not anti left per, but the much hated right to center. And Canada has 36 million people lack of workers basically net immigrant country you can not say the same for US or India.. Gosh i love Canada.

[Vilander]

2 hours ago, zen said:

Reminds me of the dialogue in Sholay when Thakur justifies hiring Veeru and Jai to catch Gabbar - "loha lohey ko kaat ta hai" 

basically, i think every one knows the reality but still wants to believe that they can somehow control these right wing hardliners after they finish the job. You can see the uneasy murmur when there is a beaf ban or a utterly racist narrative, but all is forgotten for a surgical strike or a WWC revival. But i fear the world dynamics now, Putin,Modi,Trump,Duterte,Abe all right..

[Muloghonto]

18 minutes ago, Vilander said:

But Canada does not have a mexico or a turkey/syria problem ( i do not know about Scandinavia at all), i am not anti left per, but the much hated right to center. And Canada has 36 million people lack of workers basically net immigrant country you can not say the same for US or India.. Gosh i love Canada.

None of what you said has any bearing on having publicly funded healthcare, education, social insurance, work safe or daycare programs. The last three categories directly benefit from larger your workforce is, the first two from taxing the mega-rich, something America fails at. 

 

[Tibarn]

9 hours ago, Vilander said:

There are similarities between pseudo secularism of India and left wing policies of US/UK.

Yes there are many similarities. In general the left is the mother-load of bad ideas. The biggest similarity is the constant cognitive dissonance members of the left have around the world. In India they think it's okay to get votes based on minority religious appeasement, but say it's communal if anything is even remotely Hindu. The US/UK they started nonsense called "white privilege" and do the same thing to whites. No one has a problem that Hispanics and Blacks vote overwhelmingly for 1 party, but all whites are Hitler if they strongly support a candidate.

 

The other thing they do is poison the well, they constantly use key phrases like bigot, racist, sexist, idiot, and other ad hominems instead of discussing the ideas an opponent has. It makes it easy for them to feel superior without accomplishing anything.   

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Tibarn said:

Yes there are many similarities. In general the left is the mother-load of bad ideas. The biggest similarity is the constant cognitive dissonance members of the left have around the world. In India they think it's okay to get votes based on minority religious appeasement, but say it's communal if anything is even remotely Hindu. The US/UK they started nonsense called "white privilege" and do the same thing to whites. No one has a problem that Hispanics and Blacks vote overwhelmingly for 1 party, but all whites are Hitler if they strongly support a candidate.

 

The other thing they do is poison the well, they constantly use key phrases like bigot, racist, sexist, idiot, and other ad hominems instead of discussing the ideas an opponent has. It makes it easy for them to feel superior without accomplishing anything.   

This is the kind of blind political fanaticism that is surprisingly common in many men, especially the ones who haven't hit mid-life yet. 

Like, left is the mother-load of bad ideas ? Really ? that is why hyper-liberal left wing nanny state democracies are the best bloody places to live for the average man ?

By any benchmark, for most people Canada is a way, way better choice than USA : We pay more taxes but we get so much in return for them: public paid healthcare, public schooling, social security, income assistance, child benefits, pension, etc. 

Sure, we are a 'petro-state'. Not quite, but close enough anyways. So cry the libertarian pooh-pooh-ers. So whats Germany's excuse ? Or Sweden ? Denmark ? UK ? Norway may be another petro-state but they got the largest bloody sovereign wealth fund ever, funded by their Petro-dollar.

And in those Scandinavian/German countries, you even get public paid day-care. 

These are bona-fide ideas form the left and it was bona-fide ideas form the left that has kept the common man in touching distance of having a good existence.

If it were for the Libertarian minded nonsensical 'free-market principles only, every single time' people, we'd be stuck in the Oliver Twist-esque slave society. The left gave you minimum wage. The left gave you overtime. The left gave you max hours/week you can be compelled to work. The left gave you worker's compensation. These are the fruits of the left that each and every western man enjoys. 

And oh guess what ? All these hyper  leftist capitalist economies are also hyper-left in social practices. So much for 'cognitive dissonance', the cognitive dissonance is empirically firmly in the field of the right : the libertarian and ultra-capitalists. For they think society is better off in such a model, when the most successful model RIGHT NOW anywhere not he planet, replicated multiple times, is a left-wing, liberal nanny state capitalism.

 

[Muloghonto]

Trouble with Indians is, Indians are by and large, ignorant of politics, socio-cultural policies and the west. Its ironic, because ask an Indian in India what is the west and a standard Indian living in the west for 20 years and it is "mayka ya valiyat'. 
America is not representative of the west. Its the biggest, baddest of them all, but still only 1 nation and not even 50% of western world's population.

Or GDP. 

It is the only western country with unrestricted gun ownership laws (Switzerland does not have unrestricted gun ownership laws btw)

It is also the only western nation that has no nationally funded healthcare (as a result, thousands of Americans go bankrupt every year coz they fall sick! in 2016!)

It is also the only western nation where the largest % of homeless & people below poverty line live.

Ask any non-American westerner and they see America the same way the Arabs see Pakistani : western (muslims in my e.g.) like them, but far more crude and barbaric a society.

And most of the west is exactly what America is not : America is hyper-capitalist, most of the west is nanny state capitalist. America believes in zero social programs, the west believes in more social programs than anyone else. America has the largest % of poverty rate in the west, rest of the west has far less poverty rate than USA. 

 

Most desis , especially the young ones, defend America to death because they don't think of coming here to live here. They come here to 'work'. Then 20-30 years later, they wanna go back to their bungalow back home. And to them, this land of 'kill of be killed' capitalism is the ultimate opportunity, with a safety net back home to go back to. 

 

[Tibarn]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

This is the kind of blind political fanaticism that is surprisingly common in many men, especially the ones who haven't hit mid-life yet. 

Classy post, ad hominem right off the bat.  

 

The only blind fanatic is you. You have at various points attributed all sorts of magical properties to a set of European countries. You even claimed that the fact that they are less religious than the US that the children of divorce would not be negatively affected.  I provided you scores of research studies that proved the opposite, and I demolished your other claim that the high rates of Atheism in Europe were a significant factor in their happiness. On your part you provided no evidence to back your claims. Before calling someone else blind or fanatic, why don't you look in a mirror and learn to back your claims with evidence. 

 

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

If it were for the Libertarian minded nonsensical 'free-market principles only, every single time' people, we'd be stuck in the Oliver Twist-esque slave society. The left gave you minimum wage. The left gave you overtime. The left gave you max hours/week you can be compelled to work. The left gave you worker's compensation. These are the fruits of the left that each and every western man enjoys.

You abuse libertarians (side note: it's funny that you assume I am one because I was cheering for Johnson to give America a 3rd party to vote for) yet it was libertarian policies that created most of the Western world that you claim to love so much, including the US, the single most wealthy and powerful nation in human history. See the Sweden section below. 

 

The funny thing is that you already showed you don't even know the difference between socialism and capitalism, making up excuses like claiming when people talk about Scandinavian Socialism they are talking about capitalism. I didn't want to derail that other thread, but since you persist we shall hash it out here. First of all, no one uses that term as a synonym for capitalism. Their model is actually called Nordic Capitalism or Social democracy. The model is just another variant of a welfare state, which have existed since at least the Islamic era. Even the welfare state isn't a "left" idea. Every major conservative party in the world supports varying degrees of welfare.  

 

Your trumpeting minimum wage shows your economic illiteracy, minimum wages are negative toward the economy, especially in the current age of automation. Overtime and max work week are also a hindrance depending on the situation/worker in question. In the US, workers compensation was started by Southern Democrats in Alabama and Georgia, these were not the "left". You are 0/4.  

 

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

And oh guess what ? All these hyper  leftist capitalist economies are also hyper-left in social practices. So much for 'cognitive dissonance', the cognitive dissonance is empirically firmly in the field of the right : the libertarian and ultra-capitalists. For they think society is better off in such a model, when the most successful model RIGHT NOW anywhere not he planet, replicated multiple times, is a left-wing, liberal nanny state capitalism.

 

You also apparently don't know what either cognitive dissonance is or empiricism.

Cognitive dissonance- the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs, or attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change 

Empiricism -  the role of experience and evidence, especially sensory perception, in the formation of ideas. 

 

You are the only one displaying cognitive dissonance and a lack of empiricism: 

1) You are claiming to know what model(s) are best when you don't provide any economic study to back your claim. Your standard response is that this is a chit chat forum so you don't want to bring papers here.

2) You don't address the issue of scalability. 

3) You don't address causality.

4) You don't explore the effects of high spending governments on economic growth. 

5) You don't explore adaptability.

6) You don't explore economic history of the countries you tout

7) You are not even able to properly place Capitalism on an ideological spectrum, hint it isn't left. No economist worth his salt associates the left with Capitalism. You are free to make up your own definitions for whatever words you want, but don't try that nonsense with me.

8) You don't define successful, and I doubt you are qualified, based on the rest of your post, to decide what is the most successful model. 

 

The four Major schools of economics are: (L) Marxist - Keynesian- Chicago- Austrian (R). There are 12 further schools but those are the 4 major ones. Capitalism is strongly in the Austrian(where most libertarians are) and Chicago (Friedman) schools.  

 

Socialism/Communism are what is associated with the left. You should actually talk to real people, like Bernie supporters, who openly say they want to end Capitalism. I TA(teaching assist) students, many of whom were Sanders supporters, talk with Social Science professors, the backbone of the left, etc. They are all pretty anti-capitalist when they say socialism. Your oxymoron remains an oxymoron.

 

This is a Rahn curve

 

The Keynesian myth: this is the main Left economic school, certainly not the model followed in the Nordic countries.

 

General comparison US vs Europe

 

US presidents: Reagan is responsible for the extremely high growth rates in the US from the 80s through the dot com bubble in the 90's. A large part was his reduction in real spending.  

 

New Zealand and Ireland, two of the more powerful economies in the world, relative to size, have two of the strongest economies in the world. Ireland blows the rest of the developed world away in real gdp growth rate growing at 7.6 %, the same as India, but at a much higher base. The rest of Europe struggles to even reach 2% real gdp growth, NZ is solidly at 2.2% real gdp growth. Notice how the reduction in the size of government is correlated with this. 

 

Slovakia follows this trend, and has a >3% real gdp growth.

 

Analysis of OECD countries between 1960-1996 of government spending vs gdp growth rate. R^2 of .95. Almost a 1:1 relationship between low government spending and high growth. 

Now a reverse case involving Sweden:

Between 1870-1950 Sweden had one of the highest growth rates in the world, along with a low government size. Post 1950 Sweden expanded government size and look what we have here: 

 Your nanny state is no model to follow. Prove otherwise or continue making your empty claims, your    choice. 

 

 

Helpful advice, next time, instead of trying to take a shot at my age, worry about your own lack of knowledge of basic economics. 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2016 by Tibarn

[mishra]

18 hours ago, Vilander said:

You should see the CNN, the FOX to CNN defector Alisyn was all but tears when she interviewed the Trump campaign manager and some democrat senator in the morning, forget her name. I found it a bit too forced. They seem to be more polite than Indian ancors for sure, but yeah you can see the sides they are with, not net neutral.

Yes, Yesterday , Two strange things reported on MSM.

1. Russian celebrating trump win and Party atmosphere in Moscow. Only thing media had to proove "the celebration" was guys mostly answering they are optimistic about US-Russia alliance.

2. 3 women with candle surroinded by 100s of reporter and cameramen was reported as protest against Trumps election win. Result, Tonight, A lot of people on street including Madonna

[G_B_]

Atleast in india a counter narrative in emerging.