Purely on performance who are the best young fast bowlers in Indian domestics

[express bowling]

6 minutes ago, tweaker said:

Yadav will be a big superstar in Vidharbha 

Definitely...but what kind of advice will he give 

[Mosher]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Definitely...but what kind of advice will he give 

About accuracy

Maybe giving advice about fitness. Umesh is one of the fittest cricketers and I have read about him going for long laps even after his bowling practice.  

[rkt.india]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Definitely...but what kind of advice will he give 

Every bowler knows what to do, but average bowlers lack execution.

[Texan]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

I  have actually watched Zaidi bowl let alone hearing about him.  But, at that time we had only Srinath, Zaidi and Ankola who could be considered international pace. Zaidi was not picked because of regional politics and Ankola lost focus and wanted to do movies.  thre were not sufficient number of pacers who could be considered fast-medium.

 

BUT 

 

that is not my point.

 

Every bowler with pace has not been picked because skills are important too

 

BUT

 

why has so few medium pacers got a consistent run in Indian cricket in the last 15 years whereas seamers with pace have got many many more chances to prove their mettle....like Ishant, Aaron, Umesh etc.

 

How many chances have Dhawal, Vinay, Mithun, Praveen  etc. got to call them failures in international cricket ?

 

Why has this happened under 5 different Indian captains and 7 different coaches  ?  inaccurate Aaron has played as many tests under Dhoni as accurate Bhuvi has.  Dhoni recently said that Rishi Dhawan is someone who you cannot really choose in an intenational team.

 

Looks like every Indian captain and coach has less faith in medium pacers than they have in faster bowlers.....it is not just some posters on ICF.

Well, you missed Kuruvilla bowling at his prime (not when he made his debut when he was past his prime). That is 4 fast bowlers there and only Srinath played consistently.

 

Ishant has got way too many chances than he deserves, but do tell me how he has justified his place. Have 5 captains,  7 coaches been justified in picking him time and time again? You talk about Rishi Dhawan, but conveniently forget that even as third class a choice as Stuart Binny was picked to play for India in Tests. Why was he picked? Do all the wise selectors and different captains and how many different coaches don't see how bad he is?

 

I never said that having a bit of extra pace is not good. It definitely helps and gives an edge to a pace bowler. But what is more important is to do an overall skill analysis than just discussing speed gun ticks.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Every bowler knows what to do, but average bowlers lack execution.

No, most Indian seamers don't.

 

The most common tactic used by international pacers is ...bowl a short ball or two to push the batsman back and then pitch a few up when the batsman is unsure about coming forward.   Stokes just used it to get Ashwin. Our seamers rarely use it. Shami is the only exception.

 

They also don't seem to understand that good length of deliveries vary based on the pitch being played on. 

 

There are other points too.

Edited November 18, 2016 by express bowling

[MCcricket]

With India we did not have anyone to speak off much besides Kapil n before that M Nissan was because of our mindset, they were bowlers with potential but the setup, selectors, captains did not know how to get em ,right time, nurture or give them a good run and in most cases they were not even given a test or in some like V Razdan just one test.

List is endless P Salgaonkar , R Kulkarni, Kuruvilla, Ankola, Atul wasan, Amit Bhandari, Surinder Bagal, and India selectors, capt did not believe we could produce quick bowlers and if one came thru he wasn't handled well or given a chance.

Now with, IPL, more tours , India being an average team to a good team, we have learnt and understand the need to have a fast bowling attack.

Other wise the mindset earlier was to try to draw the games away and then win at home with spinners, things changed more under Ganguly where he was ambitious and wanted to win at home and away , and felt the need to develop and look at pace bowlers.

Also earlier we did not have all many bowlers with pace over 90, maybe one odd one like Srinath, Zaidi m told was quick and Bagal was described by Ganguly as quick.Now we have more quicker bowlers coming thru after success of Zak and IPL, Aaron ,Shami, Umesh, Ishant, Nathu, to name a few , we never really had an out n out fast bowler at int stage now we can qualify, Umesh, Shami, Aaron ,Ishant in that category

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Texan said:

Well, you missed Kuruvilla bowling at his prime (not when he made his debut when he was past his prime). That is 4 fast bowlers there and only Srinath played consistently.

 

Ishant has got way too many chances than he deserves, but do tell me how he has justified his place. Have 5 captains,  7 coaches been justified in picking him time and time again? You talk about Rishi Dhawan, but conveniently forget that even as third class a choice as Stuart Binny was picked to play for India in Tests. Why was he picked? Do all the wise selectors and different captains and how many different coaches don't see how bad he is?

 

I never said that having a bit of extra pace is not good. It definitely helps and gives an edge to a pace bowler. But what is more important is to do an overall skill analysis than just discussing speed gun ticks.

 

Stuart Binny hovered around the team because he batted really well in a test match in England, scoring 70 odd and our team thought that there was something to work on as a batting all-rounder. It also helped that we were looking desperately for a seamer all-rounder. But, still, he actually played very few matches outside England. His dibbly-dobbly seamers were not  the primary reason he was selected.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I personally want skilled pacers too....but preferably those who combine skills with pace/bounce....and most importantly, wicket-taking ability.

 

My point is very simple....Whoever becomes the captain and the coach will take maximum one highly skilled medium pacer. We have Bhuvi...don't think the team management will actually choose any more unless it is for an one off series in England.  i am talking about what is likely to happen rather than what i want.

 

p.s - When Kuruvilla was young, Kapil and Prabhakar were our primary seamers and Srinath was introduced as the 3rd...and even he had to sit out in many tests in India. 

 

 

[tweaker]

Avesh Khan  is just 18 but is capable of bowling really quick as was proved when he touched 139.8kmph against Pakistan in the last Under-19 World Cup.

At six feet two inches, the right-armer bowls raw pace and his weapon, a sharp off-cutter .

"Medium pace is not my forte. I just want to bowl pace. Today I am not sure about the speed as it's not measured here. But yes against Pakistan in the World Cup 2014 in UAE I had clocked 139.8kmph."

[cowboysfan]

8 hours ago, express bowling said:

Show me a pacer in India who can land 6 balls exactly where he wants to and also knows the exact sequence of deliveries to bowl to take wickets in a bunch consistently.....and I will be happy to take him.

 

Lack of pace does not automatically mean high skills like Philander.

my point is its easier to teach a guy skills than to have a tear away fast bowler who cant stay healthy anyway.we should focus on developing the art of fast bowling than to chase the elusive bowler who can bowl 140s consistently.

[maniac]

Here is the thing...Aron got a shot purely on his ability to bowl fast while Vinay Kumar got a shot because he was a consistent domestic performer....End result both very ordinary.

 

On the other hand Shami was fast as well as a good domestic performer,Bhuvi was not the fastest but good domestic performer and they both have had a decent international career.

 

We just can't get a bowler in because he can hit 150K....that is the equivalent of giving Sarfaraz a test cap based on some innovative strokes in IPL.

 

At the same time,there is nothing wrong fast tracking a young bowler,who has hit a purple patch and has had a great start,much like we want Pant and other young batsmen given a shot.

 

Also we need to look past TTF who have had  their shot at big time after consistent performances in FC but give shot to the ones who are performing consistently in FC but never had their shot.

[maniac]

4 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Stuart Binny hovered around the team because he batted really well in a test match in England, scoring 70 odd and our team thought that there was something to work on as a batting all-rounder. It also helped that we were looking desperately for a seamer all-rounder. But, still, he actually played very few matches outside England. His dibbly-dobbly seamers were not  the primary reason he was selected.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I personally want skilled pacers too....but preferably those who combine skills with pace/bounce....and most importantly, wicket-taking ability.

 

My point is very simple....Whoever becomes the captain and the coach will take maximum one highly skilled medium pacer. We have Bhuvi...don't think the team management will actually choose any more unless it is for an one off series in England.  i am talking about what is likely to happen rather than what i want.

 

p.s - When Kuruvilla was young, Kapil and Prabhakar were our primary seamers and Srinath was introduced as the 3rd...and even he had to sit out in many tests in India. 

 

 

 

PK was not a failure in tests,he has himself to blame for his indiscipline...Also in ODI's when he looked really promising in CB series 2008,he was bowling 135-140 which is not exactly phaaast but showed he had promise.

 

Irfan Pathan,RP Singh won us matches bowling in the mid 130's....may be the odd ball of 140 but again they were picked on promise they showed in domestics and not because they were phaaast.

 

Sreeshanth and Ishant were 2 bowlers who could hit 140K's consistently but it wasn't their pace but skill that won us games and even they were picked on merit/potential and not just purely on pace...Sreeshant I believe took a hattrick in his debut season.

 

You don't pick players purely on assumed potential or ability to hit 140K's,you pick players on performance and assess the skills of the ones who are performing like pace,swing etc. or additional attributes like great fielding,batting ability and then pick the best of the lot.

 

 

 

[express bowling]

42 minutes ago, cowboysfan said:

my point is its easier to teach a guy skills than to have a tear away fast bowler who cant stay healthy anyway.we should focus on developing the art of fast bowling than to chase the elusive bowler who can bowl 140s consistently.

Extreme skills like Philander cannot be taught.   If there is any pacer in  India bowling with his effectiveness then he will automatically come to the fore.

 

Lots of bowlers are bowling 135 k + in our country now.

 

Not difficult to find 3 or 4 such bowlers who are reasonably skilled among them.  

[maniac]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Extreme skills like Philander cannot be taught.   If there is any pacer in  India bowling with his effectiveness then he will automatically come to the fore.

 

Lots of bowlers are bowling 135 k + in our country now.

 

Not difficult to find 3 or 4 such bowlers who are reasonably skilled among them.  

As I have said Philander doesn't have that extreme skills as it is made out to be.....Let Bhuvi bowl with Steyn and Morkel,he would have equivalent stats.

 

Out of 36 tests he has played 7 tests in India,Bangladesh,UAE and Srilanka...Averages 76 in Srilanka and 33.00 in Bangladesh.

 

Yes has a better average in India and UAE but has played a grand total of 1 test in India which was a low scoring game and 2 in UAE and no 5 wicket haul in SC conditions

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, maniac said:

 

PK was not a failure in tests,he has himself to blame for his indiscipline...Also in ODI's when he looked really promising in CB series 2008,he was bowling 135-140 which is not exactly phaaast but showed he had promise.

 

Irfan Pathan,RP Singh won us matches bowling in the mid 130's....may be the odd ball of 140 but again they were picked on promise they showed in domestics and not because they were phaaast.

 

Sreeshanth and Ishant were 2 bowlers who could hit 140K's consistently but it wasn't their pace but skill that won us games and even they were picked on merit/potential and not just purely on pace...Sreeshant I believe took a hattrick in his debut season.

 

You don't pick players purely on assumed potential or ability to hit 140K's,you pick players on performance and assess the skills of the ones who are performing like pace,swing etc. or additional attributes like great fielding,batting ability and then pick the best of the lot.

 

You don't necessarily have to be a fast bowler to do well in international cricket.  Fast-medium bowlers with skills are good enough.

 

It is not about just bowling 140 k but having sufficient pace and bounce along with skills to trouble top international batsmen.  The slower you are the more extreme skills or bounce you would require.   Even 140 k bowlers need sufficient skills.

 

In domestic cricket, the average batsman is of a much lower quality than international cricket. Even a seamer bowling 127 k with good skills can trouble them.  That does not happen in international cricket.  Which is why a seamer like Vinay looks great in domestics but look like a fish out of water in internationals.

 

RP Singh was a bouncy fast-medium bowler. Consistently bowled 135 k to 142 k when he was getting wickets and got good bounce too.  Then he became fat and fell away.

 

Bhuvi, Irfan and PK are the only 3 medium pacers that we have tried for a decent length of time in the last 15 years and that is because all 3 are / were above average swing bowlers.  All other specialist seamers that have played for us in the last 15 years have been either fast or fast-medium....like Zaheer, Nehra, Agarkar, Balaji, Munaf, RP, Sreesanth, Ishant, Umesh, Aaron, Shami, Mohit, Bumrah.

 

It is not skills vs pace but .....looking for pacers who have both.

Edited November 18, 2016 by express bowling

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, maniac said:

As I have said Philander doesn't have that extreme skills as it is made out to be.....Let Bhuvi bowl with Steyn and Morkel,he would have equivalent stats.

 

Out of 36 tests he has played 7 tests in India,Bangladesh,UAE and Srilanka...Averages 76 in Srilanka and 33.00 in Bangladesh.

 

Yes has a better average in India and UAE but has played a grand total of 1 test in India which was a low scoring game and 2 in UAE and no 5 wicket haul in SC conditions

Extreme accuracy is a super skill which people tend to ignore. Knowing what sequence of deliveries to bowl on which surface, to take wickets, is a super skill too.  Philander has both and few other seamers in the world do.

 

Bhuvi plays and will play for India....if he is good, he will do well.   What is stopping him ?

[maniac]

20 minutes ago, express bowling said:

You don't necessarily have to be a fast bowler to do well in international cricket.  Fast-medium bowlers with skills are good enough.

 

It is not about just bowling 140 k but having sufficient pace and bounce along with skills to trouble top international batsmen.  The slower you are the more extreme skills or bounce you would require.   Even 140 k bowlers need sufficient skills.

 

In domestic cricket, the average batsman is of a much lower quality than international cricket. Even a seamer bowling 127 k with good skills can trouble them.  That does not happen in international cricket.  Which is why a seamer like Vinay looks great in domestics but look like a fish out of water in internationals.

 

RP Singh was a bouncy fast-medium bowler. Consistently bowled 135 k to 142 k when he was getting wickets and got good bounce too.  Then he became fat and fell away.

 

Bhuvi, Irfan and PK are the only 3 medium pacers that we have tried for a decent length of time in the last 15 years and that is because all 3 are / were above average swing bowlers.  All other specialist seamers that have played for us in the last 15 years have been either fast or fast-medium....like Zaheer, Nehra, Agarkar, Balaji, Munaf, RP, Sreesanth, Ishant, Umesh, Aaron, Shami, Mohit, Bumrah.

 

It is not skills vs pace but .....looking for pacers who have both.

What are you talking about....Bhuvi and PK average less than 30 in tests...Pathan has 100 wickets in 29 games.

 

How can you say that they got an extended run when Bhuvi has played a grand total of 15 tests, PK played 6 tests and Pathan probably the only guy to get a bigger run but again he had additional skills like his batting talent.

 

You are talking as if Bhuvi and Irfan were 120K trundlers...in rythm they are as quick as RP Singh,Balaji and Zak(in his 2nd phase)...Yes PK was the only guy I have seen bowling 115-120

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

Bhuvi, Irfan and PK are the only 3 medium pacers that we have tried for a decent length of time in the last 15 years and that is because all 3 are / were above average swing bowlers.  All other specialist seamers that have played for us in the last 15 years have been either fast or fast-medium....like Zaheer, Nehra, Agarkar, Balaji, Munaf, RP, Sreesanth, Ishant, Umesh, Aaron, Shami, Mohit, Bumrah.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, maniac said:

What are you talking about....Bhuvi and PK average less than 30 in tests...Pathan has 100 wickets in 29 games.

 

How can you say that they got an extended run when Bhuvi has played a grand total of 15 tests, PK played 6 tests and Pathan probably the only guy to get a bigger run but again he had additional skills like his batting talent.

 

You are talking as if Bhuvi and Irfan were 120K trundlers...in rythm they are as quick as RP Singh,Balaji and Zak(in his 2nd phase)...Yes PK was the only guy I have seen bowling 115-120

 

Above average swing bowlers means they are better than most others as swing bowlers ......NOT that  they have high averages    

 

I did not say that they have got extended runs  but they have played for decent lengths of time.  READ properly.   PK has played 68 ODIs, Irfan 120 ODIs and 29 tests and Bhuvi is still in our team with 57 ODIs and 15 tests.

 

I have not specified their speeds...where have you got it from.....generally speaking, BK would be called medium-fast and the other 2 medium.  It is not just about release speeds but also about bounce or  skid off the deck after pitching.

 

Anyway...what is your point exactly  ?

 

Bhuvi is playing for India and should play....I have no problem.  The other 2 are gone....so bad luck. I had nothing to do with their removal from team India.    

Edited November 18, 2016 by express bowling

[Texan]

All those blindly trusting in speed gun analysis should just watch the terrific short pitched spell being bowled by Neil Wagner. He is bowling at just 130 - 134 but targeting those bouncers so perfectly, that he has Pak batsmen hobbling. Just bounced out Younis Khan. 

[Mosher]

8 minutes ago, Texan said:

All those blindly trusting in speed gun analysis should just watch the terrific short pitched spell being bowled by Neil Wagner. He is bowling at just 130 - 134 but targeting those bouncers so perfectly, that he has Pak batsmen hobbling. Just bounced out Younis Khan. 

Wagner bowls a heavy ball which hits the bat harder and they appear quicker than what they are. He hits the deck hard. He is no trundler.

[Texan]

14 minutes ago, Mosher said:

Wagner bowls a heavy ball which hits the bat harder and they appear quicker than what they are. He hits the deck hard. He is no trundler.

All the more reason to not trust speed guns blindly. Different bowlers bring different skills to the table.