Calling it now - Ashwin will win us a series in South Africa and Australia

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, Lord said:

Rahane doesn't have magical shots that Rohit can produce.Maybe Kohi used your logic in 1st two tests

Who said? Rahane has magical shots that Rohit doesn't have especially in Tests.

[rkt.india]

18 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Who said? Rahane has magical shots that Rohit doesn't have especially in Tests.

Consistent bowling is what gets you wickets overseas because magical balls can only be bowled on helpful surfaces and it is true for both pacers and spinners.  Ashwin's inability to consistently bowl on good length outside of stump on foot marks overseas is what is dragging him back.  When he tries to do that, he mostly either bowls too full or too short and then resorts to middle and leg stump line. He needs to work on that. No one utilizes that area better than Lyon.

[vvvslaxman]

28 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Consistent bowling is what gets you wickets overseas because magical balls can only be bowled on helpful surfaces and it is true for both pacers and spinners.  Ashwin's inability to consistently bowl on good length outside of stump on foot marks overseas is what is dragging him back.  When he tries to do that, he mostly either bowls too full or too short and then resorts to middle and leg stump line. He needs to work on that. No one utilizes that area better than Lyon.

But Jadeja is not a turner by nature. Just bowling straight at an angle won't give you wickets. If he doesn't turn he will be rendered ineffective. You either go with a wrist spinner or one of these two. Obviously if you go with Pandya whose batting may or may not click and Saha who we cannot expect much from you need a bit of cushion down the order.  Besides Ashwin finished aveaging 30 despite those drops. If they had hung on to those he woudl have averaged something like 25 in alien conditions.  He created several chances, beat the bat several times. It is all recorded in commentary thread. There is no reason why you would want him out just to accommodate Jaddu. I am okay with Kuldeep replacing him as he brings something different. Jaddu? Not worth it.

[rkt.india]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

But Jadeja is not a turner by nature. Just bowling straight at an angle won't give you wickets. If he doesn't turn he will be rendered ineffective. You either go with a wrist spinner or one of these two. Obviously if you go with Pandya whose batting may or may not click and Saha who we cannot expect much from you need a bit of cushion down the order.  Besides Ashwin finished aveaging 30 despite those drops. If they had hung on to those he woudl have averaged something like 25 in alien conditions.  He created several chances, beat the bat several times. It is all recorded in commentary thread. There is no reason why you would want him out just to accommodate Jaddu. I am okay with Kuldeep replacing him as he brings something different. Jaddu? Not worth it.

Kuldeep right now lacks the zip and still raw, will need some time. I will take ashwin if he could work on hitting rough outside off consistently.

[vvvslaxman]

In Australia I expect pattas  Patta masters will pile up runs and use scoreboard pressure. Bowlers including seamers will have issue. 

[rkt.india]

6 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

In Australia I expect pattas  Patta masters will pile up runs and use scoreboard pressure. Bowlers including seamers will have issue. 

But there will still be foot marks to work on certain pitches.

[maniac]

47 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

But there will still be foot marks to work on certain pitches.

Yes especially sydney...but in aus if the plan is to go for a finger spinner I still think Ashwin is the best finger spinner in the country, with Jadeja a close 2nd.

 

I personally think Kuldeep should play in australia ahead of both.

[LORD_analyst]

25 minutes ago, maniac said:

Yes especially sydney...but in aus if the plan is to go for a finger spinner I still think Ashwin is the best finger spinner in the country, with Jadeja a close 2nd.

 

I personally think Kuldeep should play in australia ahead of both.

ashwin was disgusting on day 5 slow pitch at centurions......kuldeep is waaaay ahead of him in overseas tests

[rkt.india]

31 minutes ago, LORD_analyst said:

ashwin was disgusting on day 5 slow pitch at centurions......kuldeep is waaaay ahead of him in overseas tests

Kuldeep is yet to prove anything, so, he is way ahead. Even kuldeep is not a big turner of the ball.

[Cricketics]

Jadeja is the most capable spinner and smartest of the lot. If we don’t use his services in Australia, it will be a big loss for us.

 

 

[gattaca]

Just play Chahal feel he will good in tests as well. He bowls cleverly.

[vvvslaxman]

26 minutes ago, gattaca said:

Just play Chahal feel he will good in tests as well. He bowls cleverly.

Actually he has quiet interesting variations without a big googly. 

[Khota]

After looking at the Chahal and Yadav explain to me a simple minded person why Ashwin deserves a spot in the team? Like I said he is one of the five best spinners. No more.

[Vijy]

nope, he won't.

[Gollum]

30 minutes ago, Vijy said:

nope, he won't.

He could have in Centurion but alas the fielders and keeper deserted him, probably the unluckiest spell of bowling I have ever seen. I don't expect finger spinners to win matches in Aus but if our catching isn't club level expect Ashwin to do something in England. 

[Vijy]

4 minutes ago, Gollum said:

He could have in Centurion but alas the fielders and keeper deserted him, probably the unluckiest spell of bowling I have ever seen. I don't expect finger spinners to win matches in Aus but if our catching isn't club level expect Ashwin to do something in England. 

since SA is over, I was referring to Oz and I cannot see Ashwin doing well there - he isn't Nathan "Lionheart" Lyon.

[NameGoesHere]

I'm not sure Kuldeep and Chahal have developed the stamina and mental discipline to bowl the consistent lines required in Test cricket.   When I say 'I'm not sure' I am not knocking their abilities, but that I don't really know.

 

I'm sure it will be as much, if not more, of a consideration in the selection of spinners, than who spins the ball more.

 

Putting in 20 overs a day against world class batsmen who are in no hurry to score, with no formulaic ODI rules on player inside/outside circles, and not giving that four ball every over (which separates the good spinner from the average), and then keeping that flight and/or drift and/or dip and/or spin going over after over, requires brute physical and mental strength, apart from talent.  Has the time come to Test Chahal and Kuldeep on the above in Tests series abroad, or should we wait for a year and home Tests?   

 

I can hazard a guess- I think that Kohli will stick to Jadeja and Ashwin this year (barring injuries), and if he thinks about a replacement, Chahal will the one because he has more control. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by NameGoesHere

[lamellavig]

6 minutes ago, NameGoesHere said:

I'm not sure Kuldeep and Chahal have developed the stamina and mental discipline to bowl the consistent lines required in Test cricket.   When I say 'I'm not sure' I am not knocking their abilities, but that I don't really know.

 

I'm sure it will be as much, if not more, of a consideration in the selection of spinners, than who spins the ball more.

 

Putting in 20 overs a day against world class batsmen who are in no hurry to score, with no formulaic ODI rules on player inside/outside circles, and not giving that four ball every over (which separates the good spinner from the average), and then keeping that flight and/or drift and/or dip and/or spin going over after over, requires brute physical and mental strength, apart from talent.  Has the time come to Test Chahal and Kuldeep on the above in Tests series abroad, or should we wait for a year and home Tests?   

 

I can hazard a guess- I think that Kohli will stick to Jadeja and Ashwin this year (barring injuries), and if he thinks about a replacement, Chahal will the one because he has more control. 

You are talking about some intangible, useless qualities here. What matters is the final numbers. The final numbers suggest that Ashwin and Jadeja are not wicket takers and are also not even economical in overseas tests. Now, purely looking at the final numbers, it is impossible that Kuldeep and Chahal would perform worse than Ashwin and Jadeja (even if the wristspinners are in poor form). In other words, the opportunity cost is negligible.

 

Now, your assertion about Chahal is not true. Just because one spinner gets more wickets does not mean necessarily that he has worse control. Kuldeep gets more wickets and bowls more magic balls, but that should not be used to denigrate Kuldeep's control. Both are similar controllers. 

[NameGoesHere]

35 minutes ago, lamellavig said:

You are talking about some intangible, useless qualities here.

If you feel that control, discipline, stamina while maintaining some combination of flight/loop/spin/drift in Test cricket are useless intangible qualities, you have a right to your opinion, but it flies in the face of everything I have observed about cricket.  So we'll move  move on because there's no point to a discussion on this aspect.

 

With regards to the below,  I'm curious precisely what numbers you are using to show that it is impossible for Kuldeep and Chahal to perform worse.  

 

Please be exact- don't just say Ashwin/Jadeja's are poor numbers and so it is 'impossible to perform worse'.  Please show exactly how it is impossible they can't perform worse.  

 

35 minutes ago, lamellavig said:

Now, purely looking at the final numbers, it is impossible that Kuldeep and Chahal would perform worse than Ashwin and Jadeja (even if the wristspinners are in poor form). In other words, the opportunity cost is negligible.

[Dada's Army]

Overall, Ashwin had a decent series at 30.7 with the ball and 22.5 with the bat(our 4th best). You cannot expect too much on those wickets. He out-bowled Maharaj convincingly( 125.00),  and for his fruitless 2nd innings performance at Centurion, it should be remembered that he also opened the game with 3 key wickets on opening day.

 

Looking forward, he has an important role to play in England first. He did well with ball and bat with Worcestershire last year and I believe he will do well in the Tests aswell. 

 

For all the hype around Kuldeep, he should only be considered for the 2nd spinner spot, not for Ashwin's place.