The real reason behind "Bowling Paavarhouse" decline

[Texan]

What is interesting is that with the crackdown on ball tampering and illegal actions, the amount of reverse swing bowlers in general and Pakistani bowlers in particular could generate has also gone down significantly. One tends to wonder how many wickets Pak historically got were even genuine and how many were due to fraudulent tactics.

[MechEng]

3 hours ago, Texan said:

What is interesting is that with the crackdown on ball tampering and illegal actions, the amount of reverse swing bowlers in general and Pakistani bowlers in particular could generate has also gone down significantly. One tends to wonder how many wickets Pak historically got were even genuine and how many were due to fraudulent tactics.

Aamir Sohail blamed Imran Khan for destroying Pakistani bowling culture. He said that because of ball tampering culture being so rampant, their bowlers don't know how to be effective with the new ball.

[rtmohanlal]

The extend of advantages  a fast bowler can attain thru ball tampering have to be estimated based on the fact that  this games' history  have produced several out & out fast bowlers who were  bad to mediocre to good at the best.Which inturn implies that there is no guarantee that mere 'fastness' alone  can bring 'greatness' . Jeoff Thomson,Mitchell Johnson.Shaun Tait,Ravindra pushpakumara, Ramanayake, Javagal Sreenath, Umesh Yadav ,Chetan Sharma, Akhtar,Mohammed sami,Patrick Patterson, Lasith Malinga  etc etc comes immediately to mind. I am sure  there are several others too. 

[Muloghonto]

26 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

The extend of advantages  a fast bowler can attain thru ball tampering have to be estimated based on the fact that  this games' history  have produced several out & out fast bowlers who were  bad to mediocre to good at the best.Which inturn implies that there is no guarantee that mere 'fastness' alone  can bring 'greatness' . Jeoff Thomson,Mitchell Johnson.Shaun Tait,Ravindra pushpakumara, Ramanayake, Javagal Sreenath, Umesh Yadav ,Chetan Sharma, Akhtar,Mohammed sami,Patrick Patterson, Lasith Malinga  etc etc comes immediately to mind. I am sure  there are several others too. 

I think this is an exaggeration. If ball tampering could make every single fast bowler 'great', then every single fast bowler would've done ball tampering in the pre- mid90s era of television explosion. 

Sure, i think Imran would've been a 24-26 average bowler without ball tampering & favourable umpires. But to say he'd have been crap, is false. 
Imran for one, had a very very good bouncer. Even Viv was sometimes bothered by it. Tell me- what 'ball tampering' goes into delivering an accurate, fast bouncer ? 

He might not have made the old ball hoop as much without tampering. But there is plenty of time Imran destroys a team straight up- first spell itself picks up 3-4 wickets. Far more than Kapil did for example in his opening spells. 

But as far as Akram goes, sorry but he was a Godly bowler. He is the one fast bowler, who could do everything of a fast bowler- speed,stamina, all variations, all deviations, very accurate, plus more- the wickets he gets in the world cups for example- to me they were the two most stunning decisive moments of the game for a world cup final for me. 
IMO, Akram's only weakness was motivation. Sometimes, he looked bored out there. Which is understandable, because Akram also had a lot of other distractions. And although he was a workhorse, he wasn't as fit as he could be- perhaps not due to lack of trying, but there were a couple of years in the 90s, when he was marred by repeated groin injuries.

 

[mishra]

2 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

The extend of advantages  a fast bowler can attain thru ball tampering have to be estimated based on the fact that  this games' history  have produced several out & out fast bowlers who were  bad to mediocre to good at the best.Which inturn implies that there is no guarantee that mere 'fastness' alone  can bring 'greatness' . Jeoff Thomson,Mitchell Johnson.Shaun Tait,Ravindra pushpakumara, Ramanayake, Javagal Sreenath, Umesh Yadav ,Chetan Sharma, Akhtar,Mohammed sami,Patrick Patterson, Lasith Malinga  etc etc comes immediately to mind. I am sure  there are several others too. 

TBH, 95-99% Average cricket fan has no idea how ball tampering impacts the game. I took a fiver in my very first game as second change bowler in our local league. All I did was,I  used coconut oil off my head to shine one side of the ball that game. That cemented my place in the team for good.

 

I still use the same trick when opponent are better than our team. I know that if i can rough up other side, I will have more swing.

[sandeep]

A Pakbro was telling me that PCB is mismanaging the reduced funds that they have very badly.  Absence of home tours and no India tour means not enough $$ to go around.  Its actually a crisis that is not discussed publicly much, because there will be too much pressure on board officials if it becomes common knowledge.   PCB has been using locally made kachra balls that degrade quicker than international quality balls, and help the bowlers that much more.  That is great practice for learning to get maximum use of a ball that's "deteriorated", but not so much if the ball is in decent condition and not doing much.  Even ground and pitch maintenance are suffering.  All this is leading to low scoring FC games which does not prepare players for the next level.  That's why now they have decided to shift focus to "academies".  

[MechEng]

6 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

The extend of advantages  a fast bowler can attain thru ball tampering have to be estimated based on the fact that  this games' history  have produced several out & out fast bowlers who were  bad to mediocre to good at the best.Which inturn implies that there is no guarantee that mere 'fastness' alone  can bring 'greatness' . Jeoff Thomson,Mitchell Johnson.Shaun Tait,Ravindra pushpakumara, Ramanayake, Javagal Sreenath, Umesh Yadav ,Chetan Sharma, Akhtar,Mohammed sami,Patrick Patterson, Lasith Malinga  etc etc comes immediately to mind. I am sure  there are several others too. 

Akhtar and Mitch Johnson should not be in that list, they're among the most feared fast bowlers in the history of the game.

[maniac]

4 hours ago, mishra said:

TBH, 95-99% Average cricket fan has no idea how ball tampering impacts the game. I took a fiver in my very first game as second change bowler in our local league. All I did was,I  used coconut oil off my head to shine one side of the ball that game. That cemented my place in the team for good.

 

I still use the same trick when opponent are better than our team. I know that if i can rough up other side, I will have more swing.

We need you back in India right now

 

We need a 3rd seamer

 

 

[Vilander]

7 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

The extend of advantages  a fast bowler can attain thru ball tampering have to be estimated based on the fact that  this games' history  have produced several out & out fast bowlers who were  bad to mediocre to good at the best.Which inturn implies that there is no guarantee that mere 'fastness' alone  can bring 'greatness' . Jeoff Thomson,Mitchell Johnson.Shaun Tait,Ravindra pushpakumara, Ramanayake, Javagal Sreenath, Umesh Yadav ,Chetan Sharma, Akhtar,Mohammed sami,Patrick Patterson, Lasith Malinga  etc etc comes immediately to mind. I am sure  there are several others too. 

Interesting post, Basically you are saying 

 

1, all of them must have tampered the ball. ( untrue)

2, they were bad or mediocre or good.( Obvious those are the only options available)

3, But inspite of assumption 1( they all tampered the ball) they did not become great like Imran/Waqar did.

4, also mere fastness is not greatness. ( obvious) but unrelated.

 

Tampering is not equal to 'fastness'.
 

You are a confused captain obvious basically 

 

BtW the bolded bowlers are legends of the game.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Vilander

[Vilander]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

A Pakbro was telling me that PCB is mismanaging the reduced funds that they have very badly.  Absence of home tours and no India tour means not enough $$ to go around.  Its actually a crisis that is not discussed publicly much, because there will be too much pressure on board officials if it becomes common knowledge.   PCB has been using locally made kachra balls that degrade quicker than international quality balls, and help the bowlers that much more.  That is great practice for learning to get maximum use of a ball that's "deteriorated", but not so much if the ball is in decent condition and not doing much.  Even ground and pitch maintenance are suffering.  All this is leading to low scoring FC games which does not prepare players for the next level.  That's why now they have decided to shift focus to "academies".  

hmm i think being a test nation, they will still get sufficient funds to bankroll a good domestic first class structure, i think its just mismanagement mostly, may be in past inspite of mismanagement they could manage because of flush funds which have dried up now.

[rtmohanlal]

51 minutes ago, MechEng said:

Akhtar and Mitch Johnson should not be in that list, they're among the most feared fast bowlers in the history of the game.

did they become truly great bowlers ?  no... that is what i meant .despite being brutally fast,  batsmen played them much comfortably than the certified great fast bowlers of the game.

[rtmohanlal]

28 minutes ago, Vilander said:

Interesting post, Basically you are saying 

 

1, all of them must have tampered the ball. ( untrue)

2, they were bad or mediocre or good.( Obvious those are the only options available)

3, But inspite of assumption 1( they all tampered the ball) they did not become great like Imran/Waqar did.

4, also mere fastness is not greatness. ( obvious) but unrelated.

 

Tampering is not equal to 'fastness'.
 

You are a confused captain obvious basically 

 

BtW the bolded bowlers are legends of the game.

What do you mean ??? Did i say all of them tampered ? Infact i meant 'they didn't'. I mean't this only that despite being them such fast bowlers, they couldn't trouble batsmen with  their 'pace' alone. This implies 'fastness' alone is never adequate to become a great bowler.

It requires other tricks too.And for  those proven ball tamperor 'fast bowlers' they brought those tricks into play by tampering. That is all i meant.Hope it is clear  

[Vilander]

1 minute ago, rtmohanlal said:

What do you mean ??? Did i say all of them tampered ? Infact i meant 'they didn't'. I mean't this only that despite being them such fast bowlers, they couldn't trouble batsmen with  their 'pace' alone. This implies 'fastness' alone is never adequate to become a great bowler.

It requires other tricks too.And for  those proven ball tamperor 'fast bowlers' they brought those tricks into play by tampering. That is all i meant.Hope it is clear  

how can you explain this., how do you estimate the advantages of ball tampering by looking at the number of great fastbolwers that game has produced ? ofcourse you are basically assuming that if many fast bowlers became great then there is greater reason to beleive they tampered the ball.

 

"

The extend of advantages  a fast bowler can attain thru ball tampering have to be estimated based on the fact that  this games' history  have produced several out & out fast bowlers who were  bad to mediocre to good at the best.Which inturn implies that there is no guarantee that mere 'fastness' alone  can bring 'greatness' . "

 

Btw mohanlal its extent :) not extend..

[BeautifulGame]

I am confused .Are we saying Jeff Thompson was mediocre or that he tampered with the ball.

Because suggesting either in nonsense.

[Ultimate_Game]

6 hours ago, mishra said:

TBH, 95-99% Average cricket fan has no idea how ball tampering impacts the game. I took a fiver in my very first game as second change bowler in our local league. All I did was,I  used coconut oil off my head to shine one side of the ball that game. That cemented my place in the team for good.

 

I still use the same trick when opponent are better than our team. I know that if i can rough up other side, I will have more swing.

 

1 hour ago, maniac said:

We need you back in India right now

 

We need a 3rd seamer

 

 

I would have him ahead of Dinda any day unless he's Vinee Koomaaar or Unadkat

[Ultimate_Game]

36 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

I am confused .Are we saying Jeff Thompson was mediocre or that he tampered with the ball.

Because suggesting either in nonsense.

I think his point was that speed alone doesn't guarantee success at the highest level. Not sure his point was related to tampering though.

[BeautifulGame]

I think his point was that speed alone doesn't guarantee success at the highest level. Not sure his point was related to tampering though.

Jeff Thompson had a bowling strike rate of 52.Thats despite playing the second half his career as a medium pacer after an injury collision robbed him of his lethal pace.

Infact before his injury robbed him of his pace he had a SR of 48 and average of 25.

Seriously how was he mediocre?

[maniac]

The thing is Wasim,Waqar were naturally talented..had pace and all the other skills...There is a reason why they shone through over likes of Aquib Javed and Ata-Ur-Rehman etc.

 

Did they tamper the ball and take short-cuts- sure they did.....but don't think they went out of their way and tampered the ball even when things were going their way,like if they were in good rhythm or the conditions were in their favor.

 

You hear them talk about the science of reverse swing and clearly you can tell they know what they are talking about.

 

 Sarfaraz  probably "invented" the reverse swing with a tampered ball because he was a trundler and needed to take short-cuts....Imran adopted it to add to his armory when the going got tough or to cheat his way to an improbable win but just like Wasim and Waqar he had other skills to complement him.

 

The point I am trying to make is Akram,Waqar and Imran boosted their stats to look amazing even when they could have had a decent career even without tampering the ball,may be not at the level they ended up with.

 

The problem is that the remaining upcoming bowlers never worked on their other skills and just wanted to take short-cuts to make it big,so once the scrutiny started-they did not have anything to fall back on and probably an entire generation of Pakistani fast bowling talent got watered down to a mediocre level.

 

 

 

 

 

[mishra]

3 hours ago, maniac said:

We need you back in India right now

 

We need a 3rd seamer

 

 

Nah man! I am no good but all i am saying is ball tampering improves the performance to such an extent that a competetive or below player will become best as long as he understands and exploita the dynamics of ball tampering.

[rtmohanlal]

4 hours ago, BeautifulGame said:

I am confused .Are we saying Jeff Thompson was mediocre or that he tampered with the ball.

Because suggesting either in nonsense.

not saying Thomson was mediocre. but wasn't great bowler either.My point was that 'mere fastness' need not make a bowler 'great'.And all the bowlers i quoted are examples of this.Why they didn't become 'great' was because they didn't posses the  other skills along with fastness to become great.What Imran did was he brought these other skills into play on several  occasions  thru tampering along with his fastness to attain greatness. Hope i made it clear