Dhoni at no. 4 complicating things..

[Sooda]

Would be nice to see, 

 

Dhawan, Rohit, Kohli, Dhoni, Rahul, Hooda, Pandya, Ashwin, Kumar, Shami,

Bumrah 

 

Axar, Pandey, umesh, Kedar 

[Sooda]

4 is the right spot for MSD as he is still a good middle overs accumulator and anchor the lower order.. We should have played Hooda in this series to groom him to be a 5/6 finisher who can bowl too

[Cricketics]

49 minutes ago, express bowling said:

How ?

Doesn't the strike rate reflect that he has 96 sr in 2 years . Last one year slowed down but also it is because of the struggle of the team too and him going more come conservative for team's sake.

 

 

[express bowling]

17 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Doesn't the strike rate reflect that he has 96 sr in 2 years . Last one year slowed down but also it is because of the struggle of the team too and him going more come conservative for team's sake.

 

No......In ODIs,  Dhoni has a SR of 82 in the last 2 years and a SR of 80, average of 27.8   in the last year.    ( against non-minnows )

 

More than stats, his reflexes have slowed down in the last 2 years and that is something he has to work around from now on. Only time will tell whether he will be able to do that.

Edited January 8, 2017 by express bowling

[Cricketics]

His hitting ability has reduced but is still very much there but the stats and strike rate do not show that he had to play some conservative knocks due to our struggle and him taking more responsibility ensuring we do not have collapse as we never really found a proper no.4 since players like Rahane were tried in the middle order and have been very inconsistent. Even players like Manish Pandey were inconsistent in recent series and Dhoni down the order, if he starts smashing and look to bat at good strike rate and lose his wicket, people will say that he is a irresponsible captain to be batting like that.

 

Perfect time for Dhoni to come at no.4.

 

 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, express bowling said:

No......In ODIs,  Dhoni has a SR of 82 in the last 2 years and a SR of 80, average of 27.8   in the last year.    ( against non-minnows )

 

More than stats, his reflexes have slowed down in the last 2 years and that is something he has to work around from now on. Only time will tell whether he will be able to do that.

 

[goose]

Dhoni is hiding up the order

[Cricketics]

1 hour ago, Sooda said:

Would be nice to see, 

 

Dhawan, Rohit, Kohli, Dhoni, Rahul, Hooda, Pandya, Ashwin, Kumar, Shami,

Bumrah 

 

Axar, Pandey, umesh, Kedar 

That looks like solid order if Rahul can click for us there. We need to hope for good 60-70 run opening p'ship in England and if that happens, Kohli-Dhoni will take over the game. That is where real value of Dhoni will come for us when he is batting with Kohli, together they will push each other to rotate and score freely. 

 

Would really like to see an attack of Bumrah, Shami and Bhuvi with Ashwin to go with that batting line up. That will be one team to beat. 

[BeautifulGame]

No......In ODIs,  Dhoni has a SR of 82 in the last 2 years and a SR of 80, average of 27.8   in the last year.    ( against non-minnows )

 

More than stats, his reflexes have slowed down in the last 2 years and that is something he has to work around from now on. Only time will tell whether he will be able to do that.

Again everyone has bad years ,Dhoni isn't immune to it.The year before in 2015 he averaged 45 with strike rate of 87.Kohli for example averaged 37 that year with a strike rate of 80.

Everyone has bad years .It's obvious Dhoni's reflexes have slowed down but still he is India's best bat after Kohli (Depending on Rohit's form) .

[BeautifulGame]

If u check English media ,the general consensus is that they will prepare seaming wickets for the Champions trophy .With that in mind I would go with this line up

Dhawan

Rohit

Kohli

Dhoni

Rahul

Yuvi / Pandey (Depending on Yuvi's performance vs England and IPL)

Pandya

Jadeja /Bhuvi

Ashwin

Shami

Bumrah

Rest : Rahane , Pandey, Bhuvi

I think people will be surprised he they expect flat roads in champions trophy like we encountered in world cup 15.

For me it doesn't matter between Dhoni and Rahul at 4&5 .The real issue is at no 6 .Not confident Yuvi will succeed so will go with Pandey in such case.

[express bowling]

43 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

His hitting ability has reduced but is still very much there but the stats and strike rate do not show that he had to play some conservative knocks due to our struggle and him taking more responsibility ensuring we do not have collapse as we never really found a proper no.4 since players like Rahane were tried in the middle order and have been very inconsistent. Even players like Manish Pandey were inconsistent in recent series and Dhoni down the order, if he starts smashing and look to bat at good strike rate and lose his wicket, people will say that he is a irresponsible captain to be batting like that.

 

Perfect time for Dhoni to come at no.4.

 

 

In the last 2 years, Rahane and Pandey have not been inconsistent at No.4....Pandey did badly at No.5, a position he is not that suitable for or is used to.  He has been good at No.4

 

Rahane has played very slowly when batting in the top 3 .....and No.4 has been his best position.  

 

Performances of  our batters at No.4 in the last 2 years against non-minnows --

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
MK Pandey	2016-2016	3	3	1	140	104*	70.00	128	109.37	1	0	0	9	2
AM Rahane	2015-2016	9	9	0	436	89	48.44	470	92.76	0	4	0	36	8
MS Dhoni	2015-2016	8	8	0	313	80	39.12	410	76.34	0	2	1	25	6
SK Raina	2015-2015	2	2	0	75	74	37.50	61	122.95	0	1	0	5	3
V Kohli	2015-2015	5	5	1	39	12	9.75	69	56.52	0	0	0	0	0

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=4;batting_positionmin1=4;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_average;spanmax1=08+Jan+2017;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by express bowling

[express bowling]

12 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Again everyone has bad years ,Dhoni isn't immune to it.The year before in 2015 he averaged 45 with strike rate of 87.Kohli for example averaged 37 that year with a strike rate of 80.

Everyone has bad years .It's obvious Dhoni's reflexes have slowed down but still he is India's best bat after Kohli (Depending on Rohit's form) .

 

Which is why I said that it is not just about stats ......but stats are more a corroborative evidence when a problem is identified  ( in this case slowing of Dhoni's reflexes )

 

I am keeping an open mind here and want to see whether Dhoni can adapt his game to this new challenge.  He may do it ( hopefully ) or he may not.....let's see what happens.

[Cricketics]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

In the last 2 years, Rahane and Pandey have not been inconsistent at No.4....Pandey did badly at No.5, a position he is not that suitable for or is used to.  He has been good at No.4

 

Rahane has played very slowly when batting in the top 3 and No.4 has been his best position.  

 

Performances of  our batters at No.4 in the last 2 years against non-minnows --

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
MK Pandey	2016-2016	3	3	1	140	104*	70.00	128	109.37	1	0	0	9	2
AM Rahane	2015-2016	9	9	0	436	89	48.44	470	92.76	0	4	0	36	8
MS Dhoni	2015-2016	8	8	0	313	80	39.12	410	76.34	0	2	1	25	6
SK Raina	2015-2015	2	2	0	75	74	37.50	61	122.95	0	1	0	5	3
V Kohli	2015-2015	5	5	1	39	12	9.75	69	56.52	0	0	0	0	0

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=4;batting_positionmin1=4;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_average;spanmax1=08+Jan+2017;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

 

 

 

The stats again you share does not prove that why Dhoni has slowed down. Regardless of wherever and whoever has batted, point is that we have had struggles. Kohli-Rohit have not fired together every time to have done enough to win us the games every time. We need support from other guys when they are given chance and Dhoni has tried options ahead of himself and after himself too and had to play conservative knocks because he knows that there is lot of inexperience involved with the batting.

 

Now when he moves up at 4, his role will get totaly different. He is going to actually help Kohli not take all the pressure. It will only help Kohli when Dhoni is batting with him. Kohli himself probably trusts Dhoni more than anyone. Kohli likes players who run fast and are ready to rotate every ball. Dhoni does that and is perfect to follow Kohli, our best batsman, in the batting order

 

[Cricketics]

Funny you want Pandey at no.4 in 50 overs since he has struggled at no. 5, while you are keeping Pandey at no.5 in twenty20 side where it is even a tougher and more demanding format for a batsman since coming at no.5 would mean that you perhaps might have to hit from ball 1. 

 

21 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Pandey did badly at No.5, a position he is not that suitable for or is used to.  He has been good at

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
MK Pandey	2016-2016	3	3	1	140	104*	70.00	128	109.37	1	0	0	9	2
AM Rahane	2015-2016	9	9	0	436	89	48.44	470	92.76	0	4	0	36	8
MS Dhoni	2015-2016	8	8	0	313	80	39.12	410	76.34	0	2	1	25	6
SK Raina	2015-2015	2	2	0	75	74	37.50	61	122.95	0	1	0	5	3
V Kohli	2015-2015	5	5	1	39	12	9.75	69	56.52	0	0	0	0

 

 

 

 

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

The stats again you share does not prove that why Dhoni has slowed down. Regardless of wherever and whoever has batted, point is that we have had struggles. Kohli-Rohit have not fired together every time to have done enough to win us the games every time. We need support from other guys when they are given chance and Dhoni has tried options ahead of himself and after himself too and had to play conservative knocks because he knows that there is lot of inexperience involved with the batting.

 

Now when he moves up at 4, his role will get totaly different. He is going to actually help Kohli not take all the pressure. It will only help Kohli when Dhoni is batting with him. Kohli himself probably trusts Dhoni more than anyone. Kohli likes players who run fast and are ready to rotate every ball. Dhoni does that and is perfect to follow Kohli, our best batsman, in the batting order

 

Our  ODI  batting has generally not faced any problems at the top of the order in the last 2 years.

 

Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan and even Pandey / Rahane at No.4  have done well.

 

Now, we have Rahul who can be a good No.4 batter too.

 

Our void is at No.5 and No.6.....Dhoni is coming up the order at No.4  because he thinks it will suit his current ability more rather than the team requiring a No.4 batter desperately.  And Dhoni has already batted at No.4 in  quite a few matches in the last 2 years....it is not as if he is doing it for the first time.

 

If anything, we are missing good batters at No.5 and no.6 from a team point of view.

 

 

[BeautifulGame]

 

In the last 2 years, Rahane and Pandey have not been inconsistent at No.4....Pandey did badly at No.5, a position he is not that suitable for or is used to.  He has been good at No.4

 

Rahane has played very slowly when batting in the top 3 .....and No.4 has been his best position.  

 

Performances of  our batters at No.4 in the last 2 years against non-minnows --

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
MK Pandey	2016-2016	3	3	1	140	104*	70.00	128	109.37	1	0	0	9	2	AM Rahane	2015-2016	9	9	0	436	89	48.44	470	92.76	0	4	0	36	8	MS Dhoni	2015-2016	8	8	0	313	80	39.12	410	76.34	0	2	1	25	6	SK Raina	2015-2015	2	2	0	75	74	37.50	61	122.95	0	1	0	5	3	V Kohli	2015-2015	5	5	1	39	12	9.75	69	56.52	0	0	0	0	0

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=4;batting_positionmin1=4;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_average;spanmax1=08+Jan+2017;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

 

 

 

Not inconsistent ,Rahane ?

At no.4 Rahane played 11 innings in 2015 (none last year) .In that 5 of those innings he had strike rate of 36,41,51,65 and 79.Woefully inconsistent to say the least.

Problem with Rahane is he has been only good @ no.4 when the wicket is absolutely flat and bounce true .He is kinda a modern athletic version of VVS in Odis .

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Funny you want Pandey at no.4 in 50 overs since he has struggled at no. 5, while you are keeping Pandey at no.5 in twenty20 side where it is even a tougher and more demanding format for a batsman since coming at no.5 would mean that you perhaps might have to hit from ball 1. 

 

 

Ideally, I do not want Pandey at No.5 in T2OIs even....but my hands are tied as the selectors have not chosen any young players and  I am highly skeptical of Yuvi or Raina's current ability to perform on a consistent basis.

 

Pandey is a forced choice at No.5 in T20Is for me as I don't see any other selected players in the squad who are better than him.

[Cricketics]

4 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Not inconsistent ,Rahane ?

At no.4 Rahane played 11 innings in 2015 (none last year) .In that 5 of those innings he had strike rate of 36,41,51,65 and 79.Woefully inconsistent to say the least.

Problem with Rahane is he has been only good @ no.4 when the wicket is absolutely flat and bounce true .He is kinda a modern athletic version of VVS in Odis .

Exactly and add to that also another thing is that people make too much of no.4 amd no. 5. Some times our score is 90-3, or 90-2, it will still mean the guy batting at 4 and 5 have the same role to play and hence the stats are always screwed up or do not show the ultimate real picture.

Now those same no. 5 players will have a different role to play then witj team in trouble and strike rate and average could differ if they are coming early in the innings with team down 3 wickets in 20 overs compared to them coming in the 40th over.

 

 

 

[Cricketics]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Ideally, I do not want Pandey at No.5 in T2OIs even....but my hands are tied as the selectors have not chosen any young players and  I am highly skeptical of Yuvi or Raina's current ability to perform on a consistent basis.

 

Pandey is a forced choice at No.5 in T20Is for me as I don't see any other selected players in the squad who are better than him.

Pant plays ahead, simple. Pandey should only be used as opener or at first down if for some reason Kohli is not available. Other than that, we can not ask pandey to hit from ball one. I will make Raina play at 5 if Pant opens, and if Pant does not open, then Pant bats at 5.  bat ahead.

 

Rahul

Pant

Kohli

Dhoni

Yuvi

Raina

Pandya

 

if we lose our third wicket in about16th over, then would send Pandya ahead of Yuvi and Raina in two games to see how he goes about hitting the ball in the crucial overs. 

 

 

[express bowling]

19 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Not inconsistent ,Rahane ?

At no.4 Rahane played 11 innings in 2015 (none last year) .In that 5 of those innings he had strike rate of 36,41,51,65 and 79.Woefully inconsistent to say the least.

Problem with Rahane is he has been only good @ no.4 when the wicket is absolutely flat and bounce true .He is kinda a modern athletic version of VVS in Odis .

 

These are Rahane's innings at no.4 at there are 2 in 2016 as well.

 

All but one of his 4  low SR innings have been when he has got out cheaply

 

He had SR of  150, 131 and 111 in the 3 big innings he played and 90 in another.

 

 

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	72	70	2	2236	111	32.88	2831	78.98	2	16	6	221	27	Profile
filtered	9	9	0	436	89	48.44	470	92.76	0	4	0	36	8

Innings by innings list

Runs	Mins	BF	4s	6s	SR	Pos	Dismissal	Inns		Opposition	Ground	Start Date
79	90	60	7	3	131.66	4	lbw	1		v South Africa	Melbourne	22 Feb 2015	ODI # 3610
14	56	34	2	0	41.17	4	caught	2		v West Indies	Perth	6 Mar 2015	ODI # 3625
19	38	37	1	0	51.35	4	caught	1		v Bangladesh	Melbourne	19 Mar 2015	ODI # 3641
44	87	68	2	0	64.70	4	caught	2		v Australia	Sydney	26 Mar 2015	ODI # 3645
9	27	25	1	0	36.00	4	caught	2		v Bangladesh	Dhaka	18 Jun 2015	ODI # 3658
45	79	53	4	0	84.90	4	caught	1		v South Africa	Chennai	22 Oct 2015	ODI # 3698
87	87	58	9	3	150.00	4	caught	2		v South Africa	Mumbai	25 Oct 2015	ODI # 3700
89	107	80	6	1	111.25	4	caught	1		v Australia	Brisbane	15 Jan 2016	ODI # 3724
50	72	55	4	1	90.90	4	caught	1		v Australia	Melbourne	17 Jan 2016	ODI # 3725

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/277916.html?batting_positionmax1=4;batting_positionmin1=4;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=08+Jan+2017;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by express bowling

[express bowling]

9 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Pant plays ahead, simple. Pandey should only be used as opener or at first down if for some reason Kohli is not available. Other than that, we can not ask pandey to hit from ball one. I will make Raina play at 5 if Pant opens, and if Pant does not open, then Pant bats at 5.  bat ahead.

 

Rahul

Pant

Kohli

Dhoni

Yuvi

Raina

Pandya

 

if we lose our third wicket in about16th over, then would send Pandya ahead of Yuvi and Raina in two games to see how he goes about hitting the ball in the crucial overs. 

 

 

 

Pant was already in my team and  I was playing him at No.6

 

Dhoni, Yuvi and Raina  all together is a current day T20I middle order will be a recipe for major inconsistency.  

 

Only Dhoni should be there based on recent performances in T20Is.

Edited January 8, 2017 by express bowling