Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
rtmohanlal

TOP 5 all rounders of all time

Recommended Posts

 

Not sure such a topic has already been posted here in ICF. Anyways posting the same. Omitting wicket keepers because they are different sort of all rounders.

My top5

1. Gary Sobers - Genius with the bat with around 58 avg: .Played in an era with much less protective gears than what is

available now a days.Agreed that  in his days media scrutiny was much lesser & his technique was not exposed to technical

analysis as is the case now a days, but yet when considered the merits & demerits as a whole his achievement is legendary. He

was a versatile left arm bowler who could bowl fast/medium, orthodox & chinaman who avg:ed around 34 with the ball.To add to

that he was brilliant fielder. A real match  winner  who put magical performances with bat & ball together  in several

series.

2. Jaques Kallis - Calibre enough to avg: 55+ in these technology advanced & intense media scrutiny days.Much greater

longevity than Sobers in both the disciplines.More of a grafter when compared to Sobers with the bat.Not only that he played  

both the formats of the game with such longevity. In bowling he took nearly 300 wkts at around 32 avg: . Yes... in bowling he

benefitted a lot in the company of great bowlers like Donald , Pollock & Steyn, yet his achivement is nothing short of

brilliant. He too put quite a few brilliant performances with both bat and ball  in some series.

3. Kapil Dev - May spring a surprise because of him being placed above 'traditionally believed to be superior' all rounders

like Imran, Botham & Miller.

 Reasons.

  why above Imran - Batting - Imran's bat avg: is hugely inflated by one 'not out' in every 5 inns. In a series at home vs

AUS , he avg:ed 64 in 3 inns  with 2 notouts by scoring only a total of 64 runs.To avg: 64 he actually needed to score 192

runs. Just look how vastly this 'not out' factor inflated the avg:. This, in the first half of his career when he was only a

Stuart Broad calibre  batsman. Similarly there are several not out inns of Imran all thru his career. Kapil played  for so

longer than Imran(184: 126 inns ) , he was destructive than even Viv Richards( In his first 126 inns his str: rate was 84+

which eventually dropped to 81 at the end of his career.Imran's was only 47.5)  ,they were chalk & cheese apart in WI(best

team of their times which matters a lot) with Kapil outscoring Imran in avg:,big inns:, str: rate etc etc.Kapil's big innings

played on the avg: was  atleast a level above to those of Imran's if we take into account factors like bowling

quality,percentage of team score,home/abroad,single handed effort,match situation etc etc( this i am saying after having

analysed each of their big inns  in detail)  .For instance take Kapil's 2 best inns of 129 vs SAF & 100* vs WI. Such inns are

those even specialist  batsmen like Sachin would badly wish to have in their kits.For these reasons I can't rate Imran at not

more than 90% a test batsman to Kapil.

 In bowling too Kapil's avg: of 29.64 need to evaluated based on longevity,work density(first 88 tests in a period of just 8

years & 5 months) , lack of support bowling strength thru out his career.Kapil bowled his first 21000  balls(Imran bowled

only some 19500 balls in tests) at 28.86 avg:. Kapil's avg: & str: rate was 27.7 & 54 respectively after 64 tests.But after

his knee injury & surgery  he just didn't take rest & played straight away which resulted in fetching only 64 wkts at around

35 avg: in next 26 tests(a case of placing country before self).I would mention this as an effect of 'work load' .

Kapil had the likes of Binny,Madan lal,Sandhu, Sastri  in company where as Imran had Wasim,Waqar,Iqbal Qasim,Qadir,Sarfraz

etc ect all thru his career.

All in all I imagine as to how Kapil's figures would have ended , had he bowled only some 19500 balls in a long span of 21

years  in the company of bowlers like Wasim,Waqar etc etc(just like Imran did). I am sure his avg; would have been a lot

better.

So  even with out advantages in factors ' work density' & 'support bowling strength'  Kapil was  22.81/28.86 =79.03 % a

bowler that Imran was. I think had Kapil got the advantages in these 2 factors he would have easily avg:ed  around

26.85.Around 85% .Means, in that case his  stats in various countries would also get improved in varying degrees.After that

,if we give more weightage to 'str: rate' & preference to   performance in best team country(Westindies), performance in

abroad countries, performance in home country  in that order ,Kapil's performance would be worth much more than 85%.

 Now , even if we neglect all the above said matters w.r.t bowling,i don't rate Imran as high as once  used to , because of

the unfair tampering tactics he used for boosting his performances.On the contrary imagine Kapil doing the same & its effects

on his stats.

 Coming to one dayers,Kapil was the best all rounder of the FAB4 of 80s.In batting where str: rate carries a lot of weightage
he convincingly outscores Imran.In bowling, where econ: rate carries lot of weigtage , he had better econ: rate & longevity

when compared to Imran , though both of them had almost similar avg:. And in WI & vs WI Kapil was the convincingly better.

Another noticeble factor  in one day bowling is that Imran played along with much better than or near calibre  one day

bowlers like Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir etc where as Kapil played along with Binny, Madanlal,Sandhu etc etc who were

convincingly inferior to him.And who can say with out a doubt that Khan didn't bring his 'notorious unfair partner' in one

dayers too.   

He was a brilliant captain too in his own right( his achievements need to be taken in the context of weak team especially

bowling wise at his disposal)  & a far better all round fielder to Imran. Imran was only a  slightly better captain to Kapil  

when we consider the calibre bowlers he had at his disposal.

why above Botham: In both batting & bowling in tests , Botham has slightly superior avg:s to Kapil, which gives the

impression that he was the better all rounder.But Botham's bowling has 2 parts to it. In the first 4 years or so he was
outstanding.But then he was in the company of great bowlers Willis & Underwood & he benefitted the most from such great

bowling unit.But once Willis & Underwood retired & then thrust with the resposnsibility of spearheading the bowling attack
Botham became a pale shadow of himself.He was downgoing so rapidly that had he bowled over 27000 balls in test cricket

(Kapil's count) instead of the 21000+ he actually did, his avg: would have dropped a lot even further.More over Botham was a

pale shadow as a bowler vs Windies & more importantly in Windies(best team of their time) which counts against him a lot.
Kapil raised his bowling to great levels than normal against Windies.
  In test batting too people often project Botham's 14 100s to Kapil's 8 100s to claim that he was the better test batsman.
Botham has slighly better bat avg: too.But Kapil was some 2 levels aggressive than Botham with a str: rate of 80.71 to

Botham's 60.71.While Botham was a pale shadow of himelf vs Windies & in Windies , Kapil maintained his normal standrads
or even went a little up further if we take all aspects into account.Botham didn't play in Pakistan too which was the 2nd

best team of that time & bowling wise rivalled even Windies.More over vs India, the 2nd last team of his time(bowling wise

very weak), he had great avg:.
    
Even in big scores too,if we dig a little deep, we can see that despite such apparently convincing difference in no: of 100s,

there is much more to it
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/9163.html?

class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=start;runsmin1=73;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting;view=innings
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30028.html?

class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=start;runsmin1=73;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

From the above data we can see that despite such difference in count of 100s,there was nothing much to separate them in >73
scores.If any in runs/inns  value Botham was better.But Kapil's level of dominance was some 2 levels above that of Botham.
Just as in normal case , here too Kapil scored nearly 4 100s vs WI where as Botham has a solitary 81 that too at home.
And against the 2nd last team India, Botham boosted his numbers. He didn't play in PAK either against Imran version 2.0 in

the 80s.

Now in one dayers, if we go thru stats Kapil was lot better in both batting & bowling.He won a world cup too.He was much

bettercaptain than Botham.And in over all fielding too Kapil was better where as Botham was a slip specialist.All in all,
I would say  Kapil was better to Botham in all disciplines(i won't argue with any one who places Botham as a slightly better
test batsman.For me even that is in favour of Kapil).  

why above Miller : Miller only played some 55 tests.Virtually didn't play any in Asia.So that is a big 'if' when we consider
the fact that many players like Sehwag,Warner etc etc are/were so towering in their comfort zones but pedestrian in alien

conditions.So in longevity & variety of conditions etc he lags a lot behind Kapil.

4. Ian Botham ; Better test batsman to Imran.Both Imran & Botham played along with great bowlers but Imran's was slightly

better, Botham had lot more work density compared to Imran.And Botham too seems to have not resorted to unfair tactics.
  In one day batting Imran was lot better.But in bowling I would give it to Botham.Imran was batter captain where as Botham
was better fielder
 

5. Imran khan

 

Your thoughts & choices...

 

 

  

 

 

Edited by rtmohanlal
alighment problem

Share this post


Link to post

Sobers, Kallis, Imran, Miller, Botham. Honorable mention to Aubrey Faulkner, Mike Procter, Kapil, Hadlee, Greig, Flintoff, Cairns, Pollock, Goddard, Barlow, Mushtaq Mohammad, Richie Benaud and Alan Davidson who might just be the most under-rated cricketer of all time.

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Sobers, Kallis, Imran, Miller, Botham. Honorable mention to Aubrey Faulkner, Mike Procter, Kapil, Hadlee, Greig, Flintoff, Cairns, Pollock, Goddard, Barlow, Mushtaq Mohammad, Richie Benaud and Alan Davidson who might just be the most under-rated cricketer of all time.

If you do not take at all the context Kapil & Imran played in( i mean neglect longevity, workload & support bowling strength)  & just neglect

 tampering allegations against Imran & his inflated bat avg: due to not outs & just go by bat & bowl avgs:s, placing of him above Kapil  does not come as  a surprise.

But a bit curious? How Botham & Miller above Kapil?  

Share this post


Link to post
25 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

If you do not take at all the context Kapil & Imran played in( i mean neglect longevity, workload & support bowling strength)  & just neglect

 tampering allegations against Imran & his inflated bat avg: due to not outs & just go by bat & bowl avgs:s, placing of him above Kapil  does not come as  a surprise.

But a bit curious? How Botham & Miller above Kapil?  

Imran (as well as Hadlee for that matter) purely as a bowler has more impact than Kapil as an all-rounder IMO. His batting (which I agree is inferior to Kapil) is just a bonus. Botham mostly for the first half of his career when he was arguably one of the top 3 players of all time and won matches for his side for fun. Miller for being the most balanced all-rounder of all time (near ATG bowler plus a decent middle order batsman).

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, cric_fan said:

90% of OP is a essay on Kapil :hysterical:

just specifies the reasons as to why i favour Kapil over Imran Botham, & Miller.Taking mere avg:s is absolute senseless. That is why the contexts in which these stats are achieved is also briefly described. For instance take Botham's & Kapil's batting avg:s .Going by avg:s alone Botham is the better batsman. But it does not work that way. Kapil was some 2 levels more aggressive with str: rate of 80.91 over Botham's 60.71 . Botham was a pale shadow of himself in Windies where as Kapil performed better than his normal self in Windies.Botham chickened out of Pakistan tours

citing one reason or other especially in the 80s when Imran-version2( who was avg:ing 10-15,15-20 etc etc series after series)  ,Wasim, Waqar,Qadir,Qasim,Sarfraz  etc were rivalling even Windies bowlers in the matter of versatility.And he fed on the weak bowling units of the bottom placed Indian team(Kapil & other trundlers) to boost his avg:s immensely.Such factors do count     

Share this post


Link to post
10 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Imran (as well as Hadlee for that matter) purely as a bowler has more impact than Kapil as an all-rounder IMO. His batting (which I agree is inferior to Kapil) is just a bonus. Botham mostly for the first half of his career when he was arguably one of the top 3 players of all time and won matches for his side for fun. Miller for being the most balanced all-rounder of all time (near ATG bowler plus a decent middle order batsman).

If we neglect tampering factor( for me personally i can't take Imran's record as serious as  I once used to because the allegations against him

are so intense that even his own country men like Aamer Sohail,Sarfraz Nawaz,Rameez Raja, Shoaib Akhtar  etc etc has so openly came out with statements related to same) no doubt in my  mind that Imran was the better bowler as their difference in bowling avg: suggests.But just to take the difference in bowling avg: that is 29.64-22.81= 6.83  by completely neglecting the contexts they played in is as senseless as it can get.

Kapil's avg: after bowling 21000 balls (Imran bowled some 19500 balls only)  was 28.86 before his terminal decline started. That itself reduces the gap to  6.05.Then bowling with likes of Wasim,Waqar,Qadir etc etc is far different from being in the company of MadanLal,Binny Sastri etc etc.And Kapil just didn't miss a single test baring one and played non stop cricket thru out which can be termed as 'workdensity'. This element 

was  truly reflected when his avg: went from 27.7 in first 62 tests to almost 36 in the next 26 tests when he just neglected adequate rest after his  'knee injury surgery' .These factors do affect career avg: . So when you say that 'Imran  purely as a bowler has more impact than Kapil '

you need to take into account the effect of these factors on this 'impact' also.

There are several stats that points to the effect of the above  adversities on Kapil's end avg: . His 5 wkt haul count is same as that of Imran.Means when was fit & in form & in favourable conditions,he could demolish the opponent on his own.Once some body put forward a list of bowlers with the most share of top order wkts. Kapil came 3rd with almost 46%. To take 46% of top order wkts in a total of 434 wkts  shows his ability of producing wicket taking balls  frequently.It was just that he went for more runs  by being the strike bowler & stock bowler at the same time because of having such weak support bowling unit & playing non stop cricket thru out his career.

In Botham's case he was unparalleled in the first 4 years   but Willis & Underwood contributed a lot to that.What happend to him when they retired? More over he couldn't do his magic against Windies either.

Share this post


Link to post
46 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

If we neglect tampering factor( for me personally i can't take Imran's record as serious as  I once used to because the allegations against him

are so intense that even his own country men like Aamer Sohail,Sarfraz Nawaz,Rameez Raja, Shoaib Akhtar  etc etc has so openly came out with statements related to same) no doubt in my  mind that Imran was the better bowler as their difference in bowling avg: suggests.But just to take the difference in bowling avg: that is 29.64-22.81= 6.83  by completely neglecting the contexts they played in is as senseless as it can get.

Kapil's avg: after bowling 21000 balls (Imran bowled some 19500 balls only)  was 28.86 before his terminal decline started. That itself reduces the gap to  6.05.Then bowling with likes of Wasim,Waqar,Qadir etc etc is far different from being in the company of MadanLal,Binny Sastri etc etc.And Kapil just didn't miss a single test baring one and played non stop cricket thru out which can be termed as 'workdensity'. This element 

was  truly reflected when his avg: went from 27.7 in first 62 tests to almost 36 in the next 26 tests when he just neglected adequate rest after his  'knee injury surgery' .These factors do affect career avg: . So when you say that 'Imran  purely as a bowler has more impact than Kapil '

you need to take into account the effect of these factors on this 'impact' also.

There are several stats that points to the effect of the above  adversities on Kapil's end avg: . His 5 wkt haul count is same as that of Imran.Means when was fit & in form & in favourable conditions,he could demolish the opponent on his own.Once some body put forward a list of bowlers with the most share of top order wkts. Kapil came 3rd with almost 46%. To take 46% of top order wkts in a total of 434 wkts  shows his ability of producing wicket taking balls  frequently.It was just that he went for more runs  by being the strike bowler & stock bowler at the same time because of having such weak support bowling unit & playing non stop cricket thru out his career.

In Botham's case he was unparalleled in the first 4 years   but Willis & Underwood contributed a lot to that.What happend to him when they retired? More over he couldn't do his magic against Windies either.

Okay so you don't rate Imran because of the ball tampering allegations. Fine. How is Kapil a better all-rounder than Hadlee? Hadlee has almost as many wickets in about 45 fewer Tests at an amazing average and SR. His batting average isn't too far off Kapil (27 vs 31) I'd anyday have a player who averages 27 with the bat and 22 with the ball than someone who averages 31 and 29. And he didn't have great bowling support either. Didn't stop him from being an ATG bowler. Even if you ignore Kapil's poor phase after his injury, his average is nearly 28. Fact is, Kapil would always come up short against the likes of Sobers, Kallis, Hadlee, Miller and yes Imran because these guys were ATG level in one discipline. With Botham it's closer as Botham wasn't an ATG bowler either but Botham's peak itself was so good that despite sucking for almost 5-6 years at the end of his career he still ended up with better stats than Kapil.

Share this post


Link to post

@rtmohanlal. Good article and well written. Your points about Imran are so correct and important that they need to be brought out. Let me add something else. Besides his batting his bowling figures were inflated too. Ball tempering was a main issue. Cricket has been doing averages incorrectly for hundred years. Besides not outs Imran would line up and start bowling when tail enders came. This also inflated his averages. He was not the demi-god as the neighbors made him to be.

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, sandeep said:

RTM is one of the better posters around, but damn buddy.  Just make a few paragraphs - don't make it so hard to read.

i actually posted it  in several paragraphs .but when i am viewing it  i too am getting alignment problem.But when i try to edit it , it appears as normal  in original paragraphs.Some strange problem. Sorry for that  

Edited by rtmohanlal

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Okay so you don't rate Imran because of the ball tampering allegations. Fine. How is Kapil a better all-rounder than Hadlee? Hadlee has almost as many wickets in about 45 fewer Tests at an amazing average and SR. His batting average isn't too far off Kapil (27 vs 31) I'd anyday have a player who averages 27 with the bat and 22 with the ball than someone who averages 31 and 29. And he didn't have great bowling support either. Didn't stop him from being an ATG bowler. Even if you ignore Kapil's poor phase after his injury, his average is nearly 28. Fact is, Kapil would always come up short against the likes of Sobers, Kallis, Hadlee, Miller and yes Imran because these guys were ATG level in one discipline. With Botham it's closer as Botham wasn't an ATG bowler either but Botham's peak itself was so good that despite sucking for almost 5-6 years at the end of his career he still ended up with better stats than Kapil.

tampering is just the 'permanently closed door' while evaluating Imran.No way I can appreciate sporting  greatness achieved thru crooked ways.

But even with out taking  tampering into account  I rate Kapil better(at the least,  I just can't accept the verdict that   Imran is way better as some of his fans & some analysts claim to be).

In his first 130 meaningful inns(2 '0 not outs' that doesn't contribute anything to runs/inns value are removed) Kapil avg: ed  32.37 before his terminal decline due to old age started( keep in mind even specialists like Sachin ,Ponting,Dravid etc dropped in averages alarmingly in their terminal decline period .For instance Sachin avg:ed almost 57 in his first 177 tests. But in a matter of just 23 tests it went down to 53.88.But despite that I am sure analysts with atleast a bit of sense just do not take that avg: of 53.88 alone.They appreciate his longevity of 200 tests &  the fact that he avg:ed almost 57 in his first 177 tests  too.And for allrounders i think this factor is even more important.).

Take note the below  data gathered from cricinfo

  Imran    126 inns, 25 not out,  3807 runs, avg: 37.69   str:rate  47.52   runs/inns  30.21     
  Kapil    130 inns, 10 not out,  3884 runs, avg: 32.37   str:rate  84.40   runs/inns  29.88
  Kapil    184 inns, 15 not out,  5248 runs, avg: 31.05   str:rate  80.91   runs/inns  28.52

Imran's 25 not outs in 126 inns inflates his avg: hugely.The best way to analyse not outs is to evaluate as to how he would have ended had he went on uninterrupted with not out scores and ended with just 10 not outs as Kapil.I am sure he wouldn't have avg:ed more than 35.25-35.5, in the process increasing runs/inns value slightly better.So till this point Imran is slightly better.

But then there are 3 vital factors by which I can't rate Imran at the most 90% a tests batsman than Kapil .They are str: rate(84.4 :47.52),

performance in Windies(the best team of their era.Not only in avg:, but in other factors like impact inns,dominating quality bowlers etc etc too they were poles apart), quality of mammoth inns on the avg: where Kapil ( this i am telling after analysing each and every  55+ inns of Imran & Kapil based on bowling quality faced,singlehanded effort, home/abroad ,match situation,pecentage of team total etc etc)  was 2 levels above Imran.For instance take Kapil's 2 best inns of 129 in SAF & 100* in WI. They are comfortably  better than Imran's 136 in AUS & 123 vs WI(his 2 best scores).Like wise there is  a 2 level difference in big inns  played be these two players on the avg: thru out.

 

In bowling too, Kapil's bowling avg:  was adversely affected severely by longevity, lack of support bowling unit & heavy workload about which I have described in detail already.To have Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir,Qasim for company is completely different from having Binny,Madanlal,Sastri,Sandhu etc etc.Longevity alone removed will make it 28.86 .I assume as to how  Kapil would have ended  had he bowled just 19500 balls as Imran did in the company of Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir,Qasim etc etc that too by taking adequate rest between

tours(adversity in  both these factors is emphatically reflected by that  drop in avg: from 27.7 to 36 immediately after injury & surgery phase).I am sure Kapil would have ended with much lesser avg: ,i would say atleast around 26.85, which in turn  would have vastly improved his numbers in individual countries too. Take note, even at that 28.86 avg: stage(at the end of 21000 balls),Kapil's str: rate(carries more weightage in tests) was 59.3( 53.7/59.3 = 90.56% as that of Imran) .And at that 28.86 avg: stage, if we  cluster together avg:s of both these players in 5 abroad countries(which carries more weightage than home avg:)& sort  , it is Kapil who comes up with top 2 values with his 23.11 in Windies(best team of their times) carrying the highest weightage.Now assume his avg: dropping from 28.86 to 26.85( with advantages in bowling support strength & work density that Imran enjoyed) all these avg:s in 5 foreign countries & str;rate too would have got even better which makes Kapil lot more than 22.81/26.85 = 85%  a bowler than Imran.

 

In one dayers, you only need to look at the details of  fellow bowlers of Kapil & Imran.Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir all ended with better bowling avg:s than Imran(Wasim & Sarfraz in bowling econ: too).But Binny.Madanlal, Sastri,Sandhu  etc were convincingly inferior bowlers to Kapil. Yet despite that  Kapil emerged as the better one day  bowler & better one day  all rounder which makes it even more creditable.

 

Wr.t  captaincy , fielding etc I have earlier went in details.To add to that, a lot is made of Imran's duels with Windies & securing 3 drawn series  results against them.But that Windies team, though still ranked NO: 1 was in transition phase with people like Lloyed,Garner,Roberts,Holding already retired.Ambrose ,Bishop were still new comers. And in some matches Viv,Marshall didn't play either.

And more Importantly Imran had bowlers like Wasim,Waqar,Qadir to rely upon.On the other hand Kapil achieved some results with mediocre bowlers.All in all Imran was better captain, but only slightly.I think no need to talk of fielding.Isn't it?

 

Now to Hadlee.He only played 134 inns.Though not as inflated as Imran's, 19 not outs in 134 inns is still a very  high proportion.In same no:

of inns Kapil avg:ed 32+ . kapil with around 84 str: rate was far more aggressive than Hadlee.More over in WI Kapil was far better.And big inns played by Kapil on the avg: too were levels avove that of Hadlee's.You take all these together and the difference is lot more than their plain avg:s suggest.ATG in 1 discipline counts here for little when the criteria is 'allrounder'. Here performance in weaker discipline carries more weightage. In bowling Hadlee too lacked support , but in work density Hadlee was just like Imran.In onedayers ? Kapil was far better in the  weaker discipline batting. In fielding & captaincy too Kapil was better.

 

   

 

   

  

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Khota said:

@rtmohanlal. Good article and well written. Your points about Imran are so correct and important that they need to be brought out. Let me add something else. Besides his batting his bowling figures were inflated too. Ball tempering was a main issue. Cricket has been doing averages incorrectly for hundred years. Besides not outs Imran would line up and start bowling when tail enders came. This also inflated his averages. He was not the demi-god as the neighbors made him to be.

Appreciate your gesture .The main point is contexts they played in too need to be taken into account, rather than plain avg:s

Share this post


Link to post

Not sure such a topic has already been posted here in ICF. Anyways posting the same. Omitting wicket keepers because they are different sort of all rounders.

My top5

1. Gary Sobers - Genius with the bat with around 58 avg: .Played in an era with much less protective gears than what is available now a days.Agreed that  in his days media scrutiny was much lesser & his technique was not exposed to technical analysis as is the case now a days, but yet when considered the merits & demerits as a whole his achievement is legendary. He was a versatile left arm bowler who could bowl fast/medium, orthodox & chinaman who avg:ed around 34 with the ball.To add to that he was brilliant fielder. A real match  winner  who put magical performances with bat & ball together  in several

series.

2. Jaques Kallis - Calibre enough to avg: 55+ in these technology advanced & intense media scrutiny days.Much greater longevity than Sobers in both the disciplines.More of a grafter when compared to Sobers with the bat.Not only that he played  both the formats of the game with such longevity. In bowling he took nearly 300 wkts at around 32 avg: . Yes... in bowling he benefitted a lot in the company of great bowlers like Donald , Pollock & Steyn, yet his achivement is nothing short of brilliant. He too put quite a few brilliant performances with both bat and ball  in some series.

3. Kapil Dev - May spring a surprise because of him being placed above 'traditionally believed to be superior' all rounders like Imran, Botham & Miller.

 Reasons.

  why above Imran - Batting - Imran's bat avg: is hugely inflated by one 'not out' in every 5 inns. In a series at home vs AUS , he avg:ed 64 in 3 inns  with 2 notouts by scoring only a total of 64 runs.To avg: 64 he actually needed to score 192 runs. Just look how vastly this 'not out' factor inflated the avg:. This, in the first half of his career when he was only a Stuart Broad calibre  batsman. Similarly there are several not out inns of Imran all thru his career. Kapil played  for so longer than Imran(184: 126 inns ) , he was destructive than even Viv Richards( In his first 126 inns his str: rate was 84+ which eventually dropped to 81 at the end of his career.Imran's was only 47.5)  ,they were chalk & cheese apart in WI(best team of their times which matters a lot) with Kapil outscoring Imran in avg:,big inns:, str: rate etc etc.Kapil's big innings

played on the avg: was  atleast a level above to those of Imran's if we take into account factors like bowling

quality,percentage of team score,home/abroad,single handed effort,match situation etc etc( this i am saying after having analysed each of their big inns  in detail)  .For instance take Kapil's 2 best inns of 129 vs SAF & 100* vs WI. Such inns are those even specialist  batsmen like Sachin would badly wish to have in their kits.For these reasons I can't rate Imran at not more than 90% a test batsman to Kapil.

        In bowling too Kapil's avg: of 29.64 need to evaluated based on longevity,work density(first 88 tests in a period of just 8 years & 5 months) , lack of support bowling strength thru out his career.Kapil bowled his first 21000  balls(Imran bowled only some 19500 balls in tests) at 28.86 avg:. Kapil's avg: & str: rate was 27.7 & 54 respectively after 64 tests.But after his knee injury & surgery  he just didn't take rest & played straight away which resulted in fetching only 64 wkts at around 35 avg: in next 26 tests(a case of placing country before self).I would mention this as an effect of 'work load' . Kapil had the likes of Binny,Madan lal,Sandhu, Sastri  in company where as Imran had Wasim,Waqar,Iqbal Qasim,Qadir,Sarfraz etc ect all thru his career.

         All in all I imagine as to how Kapil's figures would have ended , had he bowled only some 19500 balls in a long span of 21 years  in the company of bowlers like Wasim,Waqar etc etc(just like Imran did). I am sure his avg; would have been a lot better.So  even with out advantages in factors ' work density' & 'support bowling strength'  Kapil was  22.81/28.86 =79.03 % a bowler that Imran was. I think had Kapil got the advantages in these 2 factors he would have easily avg:ed  around 26.85.Around 85% .Means, in that case his  stats in various countries would also get improved in varying degrees.After that  ,if we give more weightage to 'str: rate' & preference to   performance in best team country(Westindies), performance in

abroad countries, performance in home country  in that order ,Kapil's performance would be worth much more than 85%. Now , even if we neglect all the above said matters w.r.t bowling,i don't rate Imran as high as once  used to , because of the unfair tampering tactics he used for boosting his performances.On the contrary imagine Kapil doing the same & its effects on his stats.

         Coming to one dayers,Kapil was the best all rounder of the FAB4 of 80s.In batting where str: rate carries a lot of weightage  he convincingly outscores Imran.In bowling, where econ: rate carries lot of weigtage , he had better econ: rate & longevity when compared to Imran , though both of them had almost similar avg:. And in WI & vs WI Kapil was the convincingly better.

Another noticeble factor  in one day bowling is that Imran played along with much better than or near calibre  one day bowlers like Wasim,Waqar,Sarfraz,Qadir etc where as Kapil played along with Binny, Madanlal,Sandhu etc etc who were convincingly inferior to him.And who can say with out a doubt that Khan didn't bring his 'notorious unfair partner' in one dayers too.   

           He was a brilliant captain too in his own right( his achievements need to be taken in the context of weak team especially bowling wise at his disposal)  & a far better all round fielder to Imran. Imran was only a  slightly better captain to Kapil  when we consider the calibre bowlers he had at his disposal.

 

 

why above Botham: In both batting & bowling in tests , Botham has slightly superior avg:s to Kapil, which gives the impression that he was the better all rounder.But Botham's bowling has 2 parts to it. In the first 4 years or so he was outstanding.But then he was in the company of great bowlers Willis & Underwood & he benefitted the most from such great bowling unit.But once Willis & Underwood retired & then thrust with the resposnsibility of spearheading the bowling attack Botham became a pale shadow of himself.He was downgoing so rapidly that had he bowled over 27000 balls in test cricket (Kapil's count) instead of the 21000+ he actually did, his avg: would have dropped a lot even further.More over Botham was a

pale shadow as a bowler vs Windies & more importantly in Windies(best team of their time) which counts against him a lot. Kapil raised his bowling to great levels than normal against Windies.
       In test batting too people often project Botham's 14 100s to Kapil's 8 100s to claim that he was the better test batsman.Botham has slighly better bat avg: too.But Kapil was some 2 levels aggressive than Botham with a str: rate of 80.71 to Botham's 60.71.While Botham was a pale shadow of himelf vs Windies & in Windies , Kapil maintained his normal standards or even went a little up further if we take all aspects into account.Botham didn't play in Pakistan too which was the 2nd best team of that time & bowling wise rivalled even Windies.More over vs India, the 2nd last team of his time(bowling wise very weak), he had great avg:.
    
     Even in big scores too,if we dig a little deep, we can see that despite such apparently convincing difference in no: of 100s,there is much more to it
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/9163.html?

class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=start;runsmin1=73;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting;view=innings
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/30028.html?

class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=start;runsmin1=73;runsval1=runs;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

From the above data we can see that despite such difference in count of 100s,there was nothing much to separate them in >73 scores.If any in runs/inns  value Botham was better.But Kapil's level of dominance was some 2 levels above that of Botham.Just as in normal case , here too Kapil scored nearly 4 100s vs WI where as Botham has a solitary 81 that too at home.And against the 2nd last team India, Botham boosted his numbers. He didn't play in PAK either against Imran version 2.0 in the 80s.

          Now in one dayers, if we go thru stats Kapil was lot better in both batting & bowling.He won a world cup too.He was much better captain than Botham.And in over all fielding too Kapil was better where as Botham was a slip specialist.All in all, I would say  Kapil was better to Botham in all disciplines(i won't argue with any one who places Botham as a slightly better test batsman.For me even that is in favour of Kapil).

 

why above Miller : Miller only played some 55 tests.Virtually didn't play any in Asia.So that is a big 'if' when we consider the fact that many players like Sehwag,Warner etc etc are/were so towering in their comfort zones but pedestrian in alien conditions.So in longevity & variety of conditions etc he lags a lot behind Kapil.

4. Ian Botham ; Better test batsman to Imran.Both Imran & Botham played along with great bowlers but Imran's was slightly better, Botham had lot more work density compared to Imran.And Botham too seems to have not resorted to unfair tactics.
  In one day batting Imran was lot better.But in bowling I would give it to Botham.Imran was batter captain where as Botham was better fielder
 

5. Imran khan

 

Your thoughts & choices...

Edited by rtmohanlal
made alignment of the opening post almost perfect

Share this post


Link to post

Gary Sobers number one and others you can put in any order you like...

 

I stopped reading when you tell us Kapil Dev a more destructive batsman than Viv Richards, think ex cricketers and supporters around the world might disagree with that statement 

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

Gary Sobers number one and others you can put in any order you like...

 

I stopped reading when you tell us Kapil Dev a more destructive batsman than Viv Richards, think ex cricketers and supporters around the world might disagree with that statement 

I just said Kapil was more destructive than Richards in the sense that Kapil's str: rate was almost 81 where as Richards was around 70  only.

This, in a period when most of the other top order batsmen were striking in the 40s. I never said Kapil Dev was a more destructive 'batsman' than Viv Richards

Share this post


Link to post
30 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

Gary Sobers number one and others you can put in any order you like...

 

I stopped reading when you tell us Kapil Dev a more destructive batsman than Viv Richards, think ex cricketers and supporters around the world might disagree with that statement 

Did you consider that Richards didnt have to play against the most dangerous bowlers of his time, which were west Indians, but Kapil had to play against them?

Share this post


Link to post

Agree with the OP. Imran's stats are inflated. What nobody has mentioned here are the dubious umpiring decisions for Pakistani players. I mean check the 7 wicket haul of Aqib Javed, I think about 4 wickets were not outs. If Imran were to play today, his stats would go awry hugely. But if Kapil were to play with the current Indian team, his stats would be hugely improved because he will have bowling partners like Umesh, Shami and batsmen like Kohli and all supporting him!

Share this post


Link to post
5 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Did you consider that Richards didnt have to play against the most dangerous bowlers of his time, which were west Indians, but Kapil had to play against them?

The rest of the test nation bowlers were medium pace trundlers?

 

Are you seriously advocating Kapil Dev was a more destructive batsman than Viv Richards?

Share this post


Link to post
On 5/20/2017 at 2:57 PM, Jimmy Cliff said:

Sobers, Kallis, Imran, Miller, Botham. Honorable mention to Aubrey Faulkner, Mike Procter, Kapil, Hadlee, Greig, Flintoff, Cairns, Pollock, Goddard, Barlow, Mushtaq Mohammad, Richie Benaud and Alan Davidson who might just be the most under-rated cricketer of all time.

Would agree with this.

 

For OP, I think most people agree that Kapil's batting >> Imran's batting. Kapil was naturally talented batsman and more aggressive, while Imran was a plodder. Difference in their batting was like the difference between Lara and Steve Waugh's batting. 

 

However, Imran was a much better bowler. Yes, he must have done a lot of tampering, but can't really gauge how much impact that really had on his bowling figures. Still, I think he was a better bowler than Kapil. 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Texan said:

Would agree with this.

 

For OP, I think most people agree that Kapil's batting >> Imran's batting. Kapil was naturally talented batsman and more aggressive, while Imran was a plodder. Difference in their batting was like the difference between Lara and Steve Waugh's batting. 

 

However, Imran was a much better bowler. Yes, he must have done a lot of tampering, but can't really gauge how much impact that really had on his bowling figures. Still, I think he was a better bowler than Kapil. 

To know as to how much effect has tampering had on Imran's bowling stats  you need to go thru his series wise bowling averages. A 29-30 avg:ing bowler in the 70s  all of a sudden started avg:ing in 11-15  & 15-20 range from 81 onwards. So odd & strange to find such a career track. And it just  coincides with his admission of tampering in a county match in 81.  

Share this post


Link to post

@rtmohanlal while I agree Kapil was better batsman than Imran. Kapil was nowhere near the league of Viv so don't even go there. We have to give it to Imran for totally changing his action and becoming a genuine pace bowler from medium pacer. Kapil after 1984 knee surgery became a pale version of himself and as he started playing more odi cricket he lost his bite in his outswinger and that contributed greatly in his increased average and SR.

 

Kapil has better home record than away record and his record in England is horrible for a swing bowler.I am one of the biggest fan of Kaps but Imran was better bowler who could win more matches. Kapil like Botham never had a chance to grow as player because of the immense workload he had to carry starting from his first test. where as both Hadlee and Imran took time to mature and had lot of time to refine their skills.

 

Imran or Wasim or Waqar had their stats enhanced a little by ball tampering and home umpiring but they were definitely far superior bowlers than any Indian bowler and they had butter fingered fielder who gave them minimal support.

 

 

As far allrounders I would take Botham after Sobers on pure talent and at their peak. There was nothing that these two gentlemen could not do on cricket field.

 

         

Share this post


Link to post

Ball tamperers, fixers and chuckers should automatically be disqualified from these lists, phateechar khan wouldn't even make the top 10 and here you put him in at no. 5

 

Kallis, Sobers, Kapil, Botham, Hadlee, Flintoff are the top all rounders in test cricket

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, kira said:

Ball tamperers, fixers and chuckers should automatically be disqualified from these lists, phateechar khan wouldn't even make the top 10 and here you put him in at no. 5

 

Kallis, Sobers, Kapil, Botham, Hadlee, Flintoff are the top all rounders in test cricket

It is heartening to see some one apart from me clearly  penalising Imran by completely avoiding from your list.I put him at 5 just on an assumption that his tampering methods  would have inflated his avg: not by huge margins .But it seems that you are assuming that  such

unfair  tactics had huge effects in both formats. Not blaming you either because that case also can't be entirely neglected. Several posters here though fully agree with 'Imran tampered' are a bit hesitant to move away from that strong traditional belief, it seems. 

Testimonies of himself, several contemporary cricket personalities,several opposition players & even several of  his own country players strongly indicates to him resorting to these unfair tactics whose effects on his stats  can't be neglected as  'very little' either.

No short ways.... i am for thoroughly penalising for such illegal tactics .

 

Edited by rtmohanlal
small updation

Share this post


Link to post
12 hours ago, putrevus said:

@rtmohanlal while I agree Kapil was better batsman than Imran. Kapil was nowhere near the league of Viv so don't even go there. We have to give it to Imran for totally changing his action and becoming a genuine pace bowler from medium pacer. Kapil after 1984 knee surgery became a pale version of himself and as he started playing more odi cricket he lost his bite in his outswinger and that contributed greatly in his increased average and SR.

 

Kapil has better home record than away record and his record in England is horrible for a swing bowler.I am one of the biggest fan of Kaps but Imran was better bowler who could win more matches. Kapil like Botham never had a chance to grow as player because of the immense workload he had to carry starting from his first test. where as both Hadlee and Imran took time to mature and had lot of time to refine their skills.

 

Imran or Wasim or Waqar had their stats enhanced a little by ball tampering and home umpiring but they were definitely far superior bowlers than any Indian bowler and they had butter fingered fielder who gave them minimal support.

 

 

As far allrounders I would take Botham after Sobers on pure talent and at their peak. There was nothing that these two gentlemen could not do on cricket field.

 

         

Dont think the illegal methods used by Imran inflated his stats just by a little. I totally believe that in all home matches, the bias in the umpiring too has inflated their nos. 

Having said that, no doubt Imran was a better bowler than Kapil. But I honestly dont think he was such a threat as a bowler. 

Share this post


Link to post

Some people still believe that tampering had only minor positive effects in Imran's end career stats & that he would have still become nearly as effective with his 'fastness' alone.Such people should go thru the history of cricket .There are several names who were/are as fast,faster & almost as fast as Imran who ended up at the most as 'very good' category bowlers only.

The likes of Jeoff Thomson, Craig Mcdermott,Brett Lee,Merv Hughes,Mike Whittney,Mitchell Jhonson,Jason Gillespie,Chetan Sharma,Javagal Sreenath,Atul Wassan,Sreesanth, Umesh Yadav,Ravindra Pushpakumara, Champaka Ramanayake,Dilhara Fernando,Mohammed Sami,Shoaib Akhtar,Mohammed Zahid,Patrick Patterson, Winston Benjamin, Kemar Roach,Franklyn Rose,Mervyn Dhillon,Fanie Devilliers,Nanty Hayward,Ntini

Devon Malcolm,Paul Jarvis, Neal Fraser etc etc  were/are  as fast or faster than or  almost as fast as Imran who ended up at the most as 'very good' category bowlers only. Simlarly we can trace out a lot more names.These bowlers are testimony to the fact that out & out pace does not guarantee 'greatness'. When we take the case of such bowlers & relate that to Imran's 'unfair tactics' & read them as a whole can we realise the extends that ball tampering can  make in differences. 

Share this post


Link to post
Dont think the illegal methods used by Imran inflated his stats just by a little. I totally believe that in all home matches, the bias in the umpiring too has inflated their nos. 

Having said that, no doubt Imran was a better bowler than Kapil. But I honestly dont think he was such a threat as a bowler. 

 

Keep crying fast bowling 'expert'. Love it :hysterical:

Share this post


Link to post
mirchi lag gayi? :P

 

Nope. I love seeing a guy like you crying about Imran everyday :hysterical:

 

You are the one with a mirch up your rear end. Bitter & jealous.

 

You seem to be obsessed. When is your book on fast bowling being published? :hysterical: mr fast bowling 'expert'. Lol

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, cric_fan said:

 

Nope. I love seeing a guy like you crying about Imran everyday :hysterical:

 

You are the one with a mirch up your rear end. Bitter & jealous.

 

You seem to be obsessed. When is your book on fast bowling being published? :hysterical: mr fast bowling 'expert'. Lol

Right after imran's on ball tampering and cheating :)

Share this post


Link to post
33 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

For me

1. Imran

2. Sobers

3.Kallis

4. Hadlee

5.Kapil

Side effect of spending too much time on the green ghetto, you have let down the rashtra a lot, first you rate that phateechar uae khan above dravid and now this #pathetic

Share this post


Link to post
Side effect of spending too much time on the green ghetto, you have let down the rashtra a lot, first you rate that phateechar uae khan above dravid and now this #pathetic

 

It his opinion. Why are you crying?

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Dont think the illegal methods used by Imran inflated his stats just by a little. I totally believe that in all home matches, the bias in the umpiring too has inflated their nos. 

Having said that, no doubt Imran was a better bowler than Kapil. But I honestly dont think he was such a threat as a bowler. 

If you think Imran was not a threat as a bowler you are sadly mistaken.At his peak he suffered from shin injury which prevented him from bowling and he spent some years with Packers which I think greatly helped with his development after which he was a changed bowler.

 

If you give Ishant Sharma totally scuffed ball he would still not be Imran Khan or Akram or Younis.So we have to give them credit but what I object is Pakistanis think Imran was some how a very great all rounder. I really don't think he was a great allrounder , he was a bowler who could bat a Pakistani version of Ravi Shastri.

 

Kapil could have scored easily another 2000 runs if he had put some effort towards his batting but imagine being strike and stock bowler for more than a decade.

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

For me

1. Imran

2. Sobers

3.Kallis

4. Hadlee

5.Kapil

 

IMO Hadlee should not be considered a true all-rounder. he was more of a bowler who could bat in the lower order and could never get into the team on the strength of his batting alone whereas others on the list could. Botham was more of a true all-rounder and could win matches with both bat or the ball. I would say even Keith Miller would be a better option than Hadlee.
 

Share this post


Link to post
23 hours ago, putrevus said:

@rtmohanlal while I agree Kapil was better batsman than Imran. Kapil was nowhere near the league of Viv so don't even go there. We have to give it to Imran for totally changing his action and becoming a genuine pace bowler from medium pacer. Kapil after 1984 knee surgery became a pale version of himself and as he started playing more odi cricket he lost his bite in his outswinger and that contributed greatly in his increased average and SR.

 

Kapil has better home record than away record and his record in England is horrible for a swing bowler.I am one of the biggest fan of Kaps but Imran was better bowler who could win more matches. Kapil like Botham never had a chance to grow as player because of the immense workload he had to carry starting from his first test. where as both Hadlee and Imran took time to mature and had lot of time to refine their skills.

 

Imran or Wasim or Waqar had their stats enhanced a little by ball tampering and home umpiring but they were definitely far superior bowlers than any Indian bowler and they had butter fingered fielder who gave them minimal support.

 

 

As far allrounders I would take Botham after Sobers on pure talent and at their peak. There was nothing that these two gentlemen could not do on cricket field.

 

         

i  only said ' Kapil was more destructive than Viv'. Neither taking any thing away  from Imran

for totally changing his action and becoming a genuine pace bowler from medium pacer.Kapil

at the first place got 'knee surgery' mainly because of playing nonstop cricket in his first 5 years & 5 months where he played  62 tests & took 247 wkts in addition to playing one dayers.Kapil after 1984 knee surgery became a pale version of himself  because he straight away started playing  with out taking any rest after his surgery.This resulted in him picking only 64 wkts in next 26 tests @ around 36 avg:. This i would call as 'heavy workload' as a result of placing country before self.

If Kapil has better home record than away record so has Imran.You admit that Kapil has immense workload & discredit him.But i take it as a cricketing context and evaluate Kapil based on that too along with lack of adequate support bowling strength. 

Yes Kapil's record in ENG was below avg:, but  'immense workload ' & 'lack of adequate support bowling strength' played huge role's in Kapil's end avg: as a whole & there by his avg:s in individual countries.

Another of your statement seemed a little comical to me.'Imran or Wasim or Waqar had their stats enhanced a little by ball tampering and home umpiring'. As per you it is only 'a little' despite the testimony of a lot of cricket related people.And you says they  had butter fingered fielders who gave them minimal support & gives more weightage to this .I think it is the opposite way.Again it is not as if Kapil had brilliant set of fielder to support him. Fielding became  more professional only in the 90s with Southafrica arriving headed by  the irreplacable Jhonty Rhodes & AUS becoming more professsional & skilled in 'sliding'  etc etc.Till then fielding was only amateurish with a few players like Logie,Viv,Azharuddin  being brillliant.

 

W.R.T Botham, i still remember those healthy discussions with you  few months before in one of the topics.Here too i have specified several reasons as to why I place Kapil above Botham.Yes..in that  4 year peak period Botham was magnificient against Packer weakened teams bar Windies(beat team of their era). Quite  naturally Botham put some brilliant all round performances.But that performances were hugely  influenced by him being in the company of Willis & Underwood. Even then he couldn't reach any where near to that level vs Windies.More over it is not about  numbers only  .Quality too matters. For instance Kapil's 100* & 3 wkts vs WI in WI  against that strong side  is lot better than scoring some 150 & taking 6 wkts  vs a mediocre side.To be more precise you can't take Coventry's 194  & Saeed Anwar's 194 as of the same worth despite having same numeric value.Yet I feel that Botham was slightly able to put  more all round performance together than Kapil.But for me, Kapil being basically better to Botham in all departments  namely  test batting,test bowling,  one day batting,one day bowling,fielding & captaincy eclipses Botham comfortably.

Edited by rtmohanlal
rectify error

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

i  only said ' Kapil was more destructive than Viv'. Neither taking any thing away  from Imran

for totally changing his action and becoming a genuine pace bowler from medium pacer.Kapil

at the first place got 'knee surgery' mainly because of playing nonstop cricket in his first 5 years & 5 months where he played  62 tests & took 247 wkts in addition to playing one dayers.Kapil after 1984 knee surgery became a pale version of himself  because he straight away started playing  with out taking any rest after his surgery.This resulted in him picking only 64 wkts in next 26 tests @ around 36 avg:. This i would call as 'heavy workload' as a result of placing country before self.

If Kapil has better home record than away record so has Imran.You admit that Kapil has immense workload & discredit him.But i take it as a cricketing context and evaluate Kapil based on that too along with lack of adequate support bowling strength. 

Yes Kapil's record in ENG was below avg:, but  'immense workload ' & 'lack of adequate support bowling strength' played huge role's in Kapil's end avg: as a whole & there by his avg:s in individual countries.

Another of your statement seemed a little comical to me.'Imran or Wasim or Waqar had their stats enhanced a little by ball tampering and home umpiring'. As per you it is only 'a little' despite the testimony of a lot of cricket related people.And you says they  had butter fingered fielders who gave them minimal support & gives more weightage to this .I think it is the opposite way.Again it is not as if Kapil had brilliant set of fielder to support him. Fielding became  more professional only in the 90s with Southafrica arriving headed by  the irreplacable Jhonty Rhodes & AUS became more professsional & skilled in 'sliding'  etc etc.Till then fielding was only amature with a few players like Logie,Viv,Azharuddin  being brillliant.

 

W.R.T Botham, i still remember those healthy discussions with you  few months before in one of the topics.Here too i have specified several reasons as to why I place Kapil above Botham.Yes..in that  4 year peak period Botham was magnificient against Packer weakened teams bar Windies(beat team of their era). Quite  naturally Botham put some brilliant all round performances.But that performances were hugely  influenced by him being in the company of Willis & Underwood. Even then he couldn't reach any where near to that level vs Windies.More over it is not against numbers .Quality too matters. For instance Kapil's 100* & 3 wkts vs WI in WI  against that strong side  is lot better than scoring some 150 & taking 6 wkts  vs a mediocre side.To be more precise you can't take Coventry's 194  & Saeed Anwar's 194 as of the same worth despite having same numeric value.Yet I feel that Botham was slightly able to put  more all round performance together than Kapil.But for me, Kapil being basically better to Botham in all departments  namely  test batting,test bowling,  one day batting,one day bowling,fielding & captaincy eclipses Botham comfortably.

When I played cricket there were 3 disciplines,  batting bowling and fielding.  So which discipline are you speaking about that Kapil Dev was more destructive than Vivien Richards? I would argue Bothams performances were hampered by playing games with Willis and Underwood! ! His chances of taking 5+ wickets were reduced  greatly,  where Kapil  Dev had a greater chance of taking 10 wickets  each test 

Share this post


Link to post
24 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

When I played cricket there were 3 disciplines,  batting bowling and fielding.  So which discipline are you speaking about that Kapil Dev was more destructive than Vivien Richards? I would argue Bothams performances were hampered by playing games with Willis and Underwood! ! His chances of taking 5+ wickets were reduced  greatly,  where Kapil  Dev had a greater chance of taking 10 wickets  each test 

You says you have played cricket & so have  i. I just said Kapil was more destructive than Viv in batting  with a str: rate of 81 to Viv's 70.Any dount in that?  Never did i say that Kapil was a more 'destructive batsman' than Viv which take into account batting avg: too.

 

As per you saying   'Bothams performances were hampered by playing games with Willis and Underwood!' Oh .. then what happend to the same Botham when both Willis &Underwood retired & was thrust with the responsibility of spearheading the bowling attack.?As per you, then Botham 's performances needed to have improved significantly. But it went the opposite. why why why?

Share this post


Link to post
11 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

You says you have played cricket & so have  i. I just said Kapil was more destructive than Viv in batting  with a str: rate of 81 to Viv's 70.Any dount in that?  Never did i say that Kapil was a more 'destructive batsman' than Viv which take into account batting avg: too.

 

As per you saying   'Bothams performances were hampered by playing games with Willis and Underwood!' Oh .. then what happend to the same Botham when both Willis &Underwood retired & was thrust with the responsibility of spearheading the bowling attack.?As per you, then Botham 's performances needed to have improved significantly. But it went the opposite. why why why?

You quoted a knee injury to Kapil, you omitted to mention a Botham injury which required spinal infusion surgery.  

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, putrevus said:

If you think Imran was not a threat as a bowler you are sadly mistaken.At his peak he suffered from shin injury which prevented him from bowling and he spent some years with Packers which I think greatly helped with his development after which he was a changed bowler.

 

If you give Ishant Sharma totally scuffed ball he would still not be Imran Khan or Akram or Younis.So we have to give them credit but what I object is Pakistanis think Imran was some how a very great all rounder. I really don't think he was a great allrounder , he was a bowler who could bat a Pakistani version of Ravi Shastri.

 

Kapil could have scored easily another 2000 runs if he had put some effort towards his batting but imagine being strike and stock bowler for more than a decade.

your statement '.At his peak he suffered from shin injury which prevented him from bowling and he spent some years with Packers which I think greatly helped with his development after which he was a changed bowler' leads to a bit of confusion .Packer cricket occured in 78-80.Here it might have greatly helped with his development after which he was a changed bowler.Also ,if you mean that at his peak Imran suffered from shin injury which prevented him from bowling further & there by his stats, i  can't accept with that statement. Imran during a period of about 14.5 months  from  13 Nov 81 to 30 Jan 83  played 16 tests on the trot and benefitted the most from it as a fast bowler(surely tampering too played a huge part).It was for the first time in his career that he was playing with such work density. After playing with such work density his shin was badly affected.In his book 'all round view' he clearly states that  the first doctor whom he approached exclaimed as to how his shin bone didn't get scatter after putting so much stress on the shin.In other words, Imran played with such work load ,placed such huge  strain  on his shin,  reaped the benefits in the form of bucket load of wkts & paid the price.So to say 'had the injury not occured' etc etc is absolutely meaningless.After all you can't have it both ways .Isn't it?

   
Edited by rtmohanlal

Share this post


Link to post
35 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

You quoted a knee injury to Kapil, you omitted to mention a Botham injury which required spinal infusion surgery.  

i am hearing about Botham's injury for the first time.Agreed .Yet ,to believe that  a bowler who avg:ed below 21  in his first 42  tests  in a time span of just 4 years & 4 months  could

avg: only  a paltry  37.56  in his next 60 tests played in over 10.5 months solely because of a surgery is very very difficult.

 

It more than points to Botham lacking discipline,fitness & more importantly  'the ability to  spearhead the bowling in the absence of 'great' category bowlers'.

Edited by rtmohanlal
need updation

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  
×
×
  • Create New...