I would not play Bumrah in England: Michael Holding

[rkt.india]

18 minutes ago, mishra said:

BK is better bowler in 2018, If Bhumrah is fit throughout the series, He will be as good as what he did in Africa. Guy is hungry. Hope that he keeps valuing test cricket and dont go Agent Nehra way.

I don't see us getting as hard and bouncy tracks in England. Even in SA, we struggled to pick wicket with new except BK. if this happens in England again, come back will be difficult.  it all depends on the conditions and futile to talk what conditions we will get already. It is better to have all bases covered. We would certainly a 2nd swing bowler who could bowl at good pace too.

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

But Ishant was 4th pacer in last test, not third.

Sure, but I'm talking about a scenario where our 4th bowler is a spinner.   Bhuvi has locked up a spot as one of the top 2 pacers. 

 

Shami has strengthened his case a bit, by showing his prowess at wrapping up the tail - something that Bhuvi sucks at, and is a bit of a problem in general for our team.   

 

Ishant has proven himself to be a reliable candidate for that 3rd slot - where arguably the primary job is to maintain pressure and ability to bowl defensively as well, while also offer an ability to take wickets.  Bumrah's promise bowling intellect, ability and pace is promising enough to make it close.  But Ishant's case for selection isn't a bad one.  

 

Problem of plenty for us in the pace bowling department.  For a team that has for decades, struggled to have 3 international-class pace bowlers, I just love this.  

[rkt.india]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Sure, but I'm talking about a scenario where our 4th bowler is a spinner.   Bhuvi has locked up a spot as one of the top 2 pacers. 

 

Shami has strengthened his case a bit, by showing his prowess at wrapping up the tail - something that Bhuvi sucks at, and is a bit of a problem in general for our team.   

 

Ishant has proven himself to be a reliable candidate for that 3rd slot - where arguably the primary job is to maintain pressure and ability to bowl defensively as well, while also offer an ability to take wickets.  Bumrah's promise bowling intellect, ability and pace is promising enough to make it close.  But Ishant's case for selection isn't a bad one.  

 

Problem of plenty for us in the pace bowling department.  For a team that has for decades, struggled to have 3 international-class pace bowlers, I just love this.  

i am very inclined to  give debut to Sani against Afghans and have him for England.  He is very much what BK does but at 5-8K quicker pace and both these can form a very good attack for England conditions.

[putrevus]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Sure, but I'm talking about a scenario where our 4th bowler is a spinner.   Bhuvi has locked up a spot as one of the top 2 pacers. 

 

Shami has strengthened his case a bit, by showing his prowess at wrapping up the tail - something that Bhuvi sucks at, and is a bit of a problem in general for our team.   

 

Ishant has proven himself to be a reliable candidate for that 3rd slot - where arguably the primary job is to maintain pressure and ability to bowl defensively as well, while also offer an ability to take wickets.  Bumrah's promise bowling intellect, ability and pace is promising enough to make it close.  But Ishant's case for selection isn't a bad one.  

 

Problem of plenty for us in the pace bowling department.  For a team that has for decades, struggled to have 3 international-class pace bowlers, I just love this.  

Problem is all have some good qualities but none of them have world class ability.People are underestimate value of work horse in Ishant especially for this team.

 

Problem of plenty but not sure any combination of three will win you matches.You might need all four to win matches.So can you drop Pandya to accommodate a spinner.

[rkt.india]

2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Problem is all have some good qualities but none of them have world class ability.People are underestimate value of work horse in Ishant especially for this team.

 

Problem of plenty but not sure any combination of three will win you matches.You might need all four to win matches.So can you drop Pandya to accommodate a spinner.

you are right, we would need 4 seamers unless the pitch is very dry.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

you are right, we would need 4 seamers unless the pitch is very dry.

Would you drop pandya?

 

People were making a hue and cry of Bhuvi being dropped  for second test, I understand but Ishant coming in did not do a bad job.

 

 

[rkt.india]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Would you drop pandya?

 

People were making a hue and cry of Bhuvi being dropped  for second test, I understand but Ishant coming in did not do a bad job.

 

i dont see Ashwin making a huge difference with the ball.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

 

i dont see Ashwin making a huge difference with the ball.

They need one spinner, it does not have to be Ashwin.

[rkt.india]

Just now, putrevus said:

They need one spinner, it does not have to be Ashwin.

but it will be Ashwin or at best Jadeja.

[vvvslaxman]

Moeen Ali was one of the leading wicket taker last time for England. Spinners get some purchase with Duke ball. At least one spinner should be there. Don’t care if it is Jaddu or Ash. Pandyas position has to be re-evaluated as his bowling doesn’t give India an edge. Don’t mind  his failures with bat as long as he does well with the ball. 

[shortbread]

32 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

I don't see us getting as hard and bouncy tracks in England. Even in SA, we struggled to pick wicket with new except BK. if this happens in England again, come back will be difficult.  it all depends on the conditions and futile to talk what conditions we will get already. It is better to have all bases covered. We would certainly a 2nd swing bowler who could bowl at good pace too.

I agree, when the pitch was predictable our pacers struggled. It's only when the pitch deteriorated in the second innings or when it was absolutely hostile like in the third test, they had an impact. What the SA bowlers did really well was stick to a channel and wait for the batsmen to make mistakes, not all our pacers do that.

 

If the pitch is predictable for bounce and manageable seam movement I do not see them running through the English batting line up, they know their home conditions especially Cook, Root, Stoneman etc. The bowling figures for Shami and Bumrah combined in the first SA innings of the first two tests read, 72 overs for 3 wickets!!

 

The conditions will suit Bhuvi but India will need another disciplined swing bowler to accompany him. If they simply go for the spary-gun techniques the English batsmen will simply be patient and score of the bad balls.

 

The SA pitches were the most pace friendly conditions available, so the figures must be taken with a pinch of salt. Its as good as Ashwin/Jadeja running through teams in home conditions.

 

 

 

  

[goose]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

I think its a toss-up for that 3rd pacer slot between Ishant and Bumrah, with my personal bias leaning towards Bumrah.   Ishant has proven himself to be a viable 3rd pacer, a valuable one at that.  And one can even make the argument that he's better in terms of restricting scoring in that role than Bumrah.  Btw Goosy, before the series started, we had a brief discussion on Ishant vs Umesh, and historical biases against Ishant notwitstanding - which I also share btw - one has to acknowledge Ishant's contributions in T2 and T3.  

Ishant had the worst return of the 4 pacers in terms of wickets per tests played - poor given Bumrah was on debut.

 

Let's look at his 8 wickets for the series.

 

His 5 wickets in the 2nd test included 3 lower order players (Philander and Rabada x2). He got the crucial wicket of ABdV with a chop-on. He also got Faf when he was last man standing and holed out in pursuit of quick runs. These last two wickets did not impress me. 

 

His 3 wickets in the 3rd test included that of lower order Rabada. The wicket of Amla was again crucial but somewhat fortuitous - Amla whipped it hard off his legs and found Pandya who took a sharp catch. The wicket of Faf - ball jagged back in hitting pads and onto stumps - good ball.

 

In summary, my opinion is unchanged. This series was a pacer's paradise. 

 

EDIT - Faf did not hole out in 2nd test but was bowled by Ishant, still is pursuit of quick runs.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2018 by goose

[vvvslaxman]

Ishant is a perennial support bowler. Never rose to a level of leading the attack. Frankly he doesn’t have it in him. He is a workhorse .’I agree. He can bowl many overs without breaking down. 

[rtmohanlal]

It is not as to whether ENGLAND conditions and pitches suit Bumrah or not, it is that Bumrah adds a lot  to the variety in bowling unit as a whole due to his unorthodox action and pace.With Bhuvi & Shami  lot more conducive to England pitches, i think Bumrah can do the supporting role very effectively. 

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, goose said:

Ishant had the worst return of the 4 pacers in terms of wickets per tests played - poor given Bumrah was on debut.

 

Let's look at his 8 wickets for the series.

 

His 5 wickets in the 2nd test included 3 lower order players (Philander and Rabada x2). He got the crucial wicket of ABdV with a chop-on. He also got Faf when he was last man standing and holed out in pursuit of quick runs. These last two wickets did not impress me. 

 

His 3 wickets in the 3rd test included that of lower order Rabada. The wicket of Amla was again crucial but somewhat fortuitous - Amla whipped it hard off his legs and found Pandya who took a sharp catch. The wicket of Faf - ball jagged back in hitting pads and onto stumps - good ball.

 

In summary, my opinion is unchanged. This series was a pacer's paradise. 

 

 

OK, but what about the fact that Ishant maintained pressure on his end, and not just by preventing easy runs, but bowling tight?  Sure, the ultimate measure of a bowler's performance is wickets.  But just like a 100-ball 16 from Pujara which sees off the new ball and helps the likes of Virat and Rahane down the order is valued more than a 20 ball 16 by a Shikhar Dhawan - you do have to take into account the overall context of the performances.   Wickets often go to bowlers because of the pressure on another end - and the bowler who keeps things tight doesn't get a statistical reward for his efforts.   

 

I'm not claiming that Ishant did great - but he added value.  And deserves to remain part of the extended squad and a candidate for selection.   At the end of the day, I'd still be inclined to pick Bumrah over him though for that 3rd pacer slot.  But its a bit of a gamble at this point.   

[goose]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

OK, but what about the fact that Ishant maintained pressure on his end, and not just by preventing easy runs, but bowling tight?  Sure, the ultimate measure of a bowler's performance is wickets.  But just like a 100-ball 16 from Pujara which sees off the new ball and helps the likes of Virat and Rahane down the order is valued more than a 20 ball 16 by a Shikhar Dhawan - you do have to take into account the overall context of the performances.   Wickets often go to bowlers because of the pressure on another end - and the bowler who keeps things tight doesn't get a statistical reward for his efforts.   

 

I'm not claiming that Ishant did great - but he added value.  And deserves to remain part of the extended squad and a candidate for selection.   At the end of the day, I'd still be inclined to pick Bumrah over him though for that 3rd pacer slot.  But its a bit of a gamble at this point.   

Equally I think Ishant is getting wickets because the other are so much better that batsmen have to go after him.

Edited January 29, 2018 by goose

[goose]

Either we grooming Pandya or we're not. He has to play in Eng, bring him on to give the other three pacers the rest they need, and pick Ashwin for his spin and batting.

[rkt.india]

31 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Moeen Ali was one of the leading wicket taker last time for England. Spinners get some purchase with Duke ball. At least one spinner should be there. Don’t care if it is Jaddu or Ash. Pandyas position has to be re-evaluated as his bowling doesn’t give India an edge. Don’t mind  his failures with bat as long as he does well with the ball. 

Moeen did but indian spinners didn't

[shortbread]

Just now, goose said:

Either we grooming Pandya or we're not. He has to play in Eng, bring him on to give the other three pacers the rest they need, and pick Ashwin for his spin and batting.

Grooming at what expense tho? I like Pandya and it's very rare to find an all-rounder who can bowl medium and bat, especially in the Indian context.

 

But can he be carried when touring? It's ok in home conditions, in the A side or when the series is won and he plays in the dead rubber.

 

He will play a shot across the line whether it's aggression or lack of patience I do not know! But it will not take long for him to attempt the shot. Then comes the question, how useful is his bowling?

 

There are plenty of young prospective players that India would like to groom, but not when touring England. Every player has to contribute something, whether its a 30 odd with the bat or a few wickets. 

[express bowling]

1.  Every team needs atleast 1 pacer who will provide genuine pace and bounce ...  Bumrah is that bowler for us   ( Shami too has genuine pace and bounce but his fitness may force him to use it only in the 2nd innings. )   

 

2.  The English don't like genuine pace and bounce, even on slow surfaces ... we saw that in India.

 

3. No reason to assume that Holding has our best interest at heart.

 

4. I want to play 4 quicks + Ashwin in England  ...  Bumrah, Bhuvi, Shami, Saini, Ashwin.

 

5. I will replace Ishant with Saini ... he swings the ball ,  is quicker and skiddier than Ishant and is as accurate. He can bowl long spells too.

 

6. Bhuvi, Saini and Shami will be our 3 swing bowlers and Bumrah the enforcer ( Shami too in 2nd innings ).

 

7. I have seen Bumrah get outswing in FC when the conditions are conducive.  The ball seams in England too.

 

8. Bumrah's intensity is much more than any of our other pacers.

 

9.  Holding and most WI quicks were hit the deck bowlers ( Marshall was the only true swing bowler )  How did they succeed in England  ?  Why is Holding forgetting it  ? 

Edited January 29, 2018 by express bowling