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Austin 3:!6

Why chasing in 4th innings is so difficult in test cricket?

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I mean 245 is a walk in the park in white ball cricket. Hell 245 is even scored in T20s and Rohit Sharma alone has 260 odd score.

But in test cricket India chased anything over 240 just 3 times in entire history, can you believe it? Why is there such a drastic difference? Does players need to change their mindset and go more into ODI mode while chasing in test cricket? How can batting in 4th innings be improved?

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1 minute ago, ravishingravi said:

It’s mindset. You have Warner or Sehwag in there. They can change the mindset completely. Treat it like a chase

Completely agree. At least in ODIs there is a pressure of run rate etc. In test cricket there are no such things, so it should be rather easier :dontknow:

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ODIs/T20s are tailor made for batsmen. The red ball and the pitches in tests offers lot more help for bowlers especially on 4th and 5th days.

Edited by NareshK

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3 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

Completely agree. At least in ODIs there is a pressure of run rate etc. In test cricket there are no such things, so it should be rather easier :dontknow:

Indian batsmen esp this generation under Kohli's captaincy are mental midgets. Everyone's scared over their place therefore cant play freely and score runs at a higher rate. Result-- they get bogged down and lose their wicket due to relentless pressure by bowlers.

 

Otherwise there is no reason a a team cannot chase 200 odd in TWO days thats nearly 150-170 overs 

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2 minutes ago, LordPrabhzy said:

Indian batsmen esp this generation under Kohli's captaincy are mental midgets. Everyone's scared over their place therefore cant play freely and score runs at a higher rate. Result-- they get bogged down and lose their wicket due to relentless pressure by bowlers.

 

Otherwise there is no reason a a team cannot chase 200 odd in TWO days thats nearly 150-170 overs 

If you think "scoring at a higher rate" is that easy on 4th, 5th days in England, you better stop watching test cricket. Better stick to watching T20s on patta wickets.

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10 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

I mean 245 is a walk in the park in white ball cricket. Hell 245 is even scored in T20s and Rohit Sharma alone has 260 odd score.

But in test cricket India chased anything over 240 just 3 times in entire history, can you believe it? Why is there such a drastic difference? Does players need to change their mindset and go more into ODI mode while chasing in test cricket? How can batting in 4th innings be improved?

This is what happens in T20 in bowling friendly conditions.

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8604/scorecard/951329/india-vs-new-zealand-13th-match-super-10-group-2-world-t20-2015-16

 

and in ODIs

236 all out

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/18018/scorecard/1119547/england-vs-india-2nd-odi-ind-in-eng-2018

112 all out

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/18074/scorecard/1122726/india-vs-sri-lanka-1st-odi-sl-in-india-2017-18

 

245 is not walk in the park in LOIs if conditions favor bowlers.

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The pitch is relatively difficult to bat on .... the opposition would be going for the kill 

 

if opposition bowled full tosses and half trackers, I am sure we would do better 

 

To see the answer, see how Ind lost to Pak in the test where Tendulkar got that 100 .... or see Srinath rip apart SA at A’bad in 1996

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Just now, NareshK said:

If you think "scoring at a higher rate" is that easy on 4th, 5th days in England, you better stop watching test cricket. Better stick to watching T20s on patta wickets.

I dont mean going at 9 RPO you dense person :facepalm: Ive probably been watching test cricket longer than you so lets not go there.

 

What i mean is if you sneak a boundary once per over you put pressure on the bowler. If you block and block while restricting scoring shots you put pressure on the team chasing a total.

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11 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

Completely agree. At least in ODIs there is a pressure of run rate etc. In test cricket there are no such things, so it should be rather easier :dontknow:

When do teams score 250 easily in bowling friendly conditions in ODIs?

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1 minute ago, Trichromatic said:

Those are extreme conditions for batting with green tinge of grass. This pitch under baking sunshine is far from unplayable.

245 is not a big deal at all if you ask me. Even England in last test scored 330 odd in last innings

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1 minute ago, LordPrabhzy said:

I dont mean going at 9 RPO you dense person :facepalm: Ive probably been watching test cricket longer than you so lets not go there.

 

What i mean is if you sneak a boundary once per over you put pressure on the bowler. If you block and block while restricting scoring shots you put pressure on the team chasing a total.

You know better than Kohli who is one of the greatest chasers in cricket. Thanks for the laugh, dumbass.

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Just now, Austin 3:!6 said:

Those are extreme conditions for batting with green tinge of grass. This pitch under baking sunshine is far from unplayable.

245 is not a big deal at all if you ask me. Even England in last test scored 330 odd in last innings

Can you share instances teams scoring 250+ in ODIs in similar conditions where ball is swinging and turning?

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

Think we need to change our approach. With defensive technique we are losing anyway. From next time, just go after the bowling (aka Sehwag), field will spread and it will become easier.

This fruitcake thinks scoring a few boundaries will spread the field. :facepalm: Its not IPL ffs.

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8 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

I mean 245 is a walk in the park in white ball cricket. Hell 245 is even scored in T20s and Rohit Sharma alone has 260 odd score.

But in test cricket India chased anything over 240 just 3 times in entire history, can you believe it? Why is there such a drastic difference? Does players need to change their mindset and go more into ODI mode while chasing in test cricket? How can batting in 4th innings be improved?

Congrats! U have something in common with some of our cricket leadership & selectors not being able to distinguish between white & red ball cricket. 

 

Watch the highlights below on how white ball cricket used to be in diff conditions and probably diff ball as well.

 

Other uncles on the forum who watched in 90s and before also pitch in for the IPL generation who thinks Rashid ~ Warne and IPL is the pro game and previous generations were amateurs.

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

Think we need to change our approach. With defensive technique we are losing anyway. From next time, just go after the bowling (aka Sehwag), field will spread and it will become easier.

Yesss, hammer that trundler Anderson to oblivion. He'll retire out of shame before he overtakes McGrath.

Edited by Clarke

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Ok people can say all they want but this is not an unplayable pitch. Not a single cloud cover and 245 for no.1 team should not be difficult. We failed to chase twice in SA, failed in Edgbaston and now failing here. It has to do something with the mindset and approach.

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In form/main bowlers bowl long spells, no over restrictions.

Wear and tear on wicket, some keep low and some take off, roughs, craters....

More catching positions.

Test balls stays new for longer.

Relaxed wide, bouncer rules...bowler has more tools to work with.

More media/public backlash if batsman gets out being adventurous....pressure to go about it in a certain traditional way.

Edited by Gollum

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24 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

It’s mindset. You have Warner or Sehwag in there. They can change the mindset completely. Treat it like a chase

Come on, ur one of the saner ones. Anderson Broad Stokes are spewing venom and it's hard to get bat to ball and so we gotta attack ?

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1 minute ago, Clarke said:

Come on, ur one of the saner ones. Anderson Broad Stokes are spewing venom and it's hard to get bat to ball and so we gotta attack ?

They can attack and will be dismissed for 120 in 30 overs just like we have seen so many time in ODIs.

 

Moreover, forget such conditions, if there is simple slow track batsmen struggle to get to 220-240 even in ODIs. Swing and turn often leads to sub-200 totals for IPL giants.

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Modern ODI cricket is a joke, T20 isn't even cricket. When there was balance between bat and ball in ODIs, chasing was almost always tougher. Check the ODI record of all teams till 2002-03...all had a better record when setting a target. There was a period of almost 10 years where we didn't win a single match against ATG Australia chasing...even the moderate totals, Murali Karthik broke that streak in Mumbai 2007 IIRC. 1975-1992, all WC finals were won by 1st batting side, that is why Arjuna's boys earned so much respect for that WC win...came against McWarne while chasing in a WC F, and then people forget about Aravinda when singing paeans about Sachin-Lara. 

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On the contrary, batting with the older ball has been easier in this test. The top order tried to see out the new ball but Rahul got a rough one while Dhawan and Pujara were outclassed by the so called clouderson on a dry 4th day pitch under the sun. 

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36 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

I mean 245 is a walk in the park in white ball cricket. Hell 245 is even scored in T20s and Rohit Sharma alone has 260 odd score.

But in test cricket India chased anything over 240 just 3 times in entire history, can you believe it? Why is there such a drastic difference? Does players need to change their mindset and go more into ODI mode while chasing in test cricket? How can batting in 4th innings be improved?

On those tracks test teams score 500-700 runs.

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11 minutes ago, Clarke said:

Come on, ur one of the saner ones. Anderson Broad Stokes are spewing venom and it's hard to get bat to ball and so we gotta attack ?

Now I am not saying it’s easy. But you have to do something to put the bowler off. Frankly had one of them even charged, that would have sent message to opposition. 

 

I also dont don’t think this pitch is that difficult. Definitely seen worse. 

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Just now, ravishingravi said:

Now I am not saying it’s easy. But you have to do something to put the bowler off. Frankly had one of them even charged, that would have sent message to opposition. 

 

I also dont don’t think this pitch is that difficult. Definitely seen worse. 

Not everyone can put the bowler off. Maybe in the future Shaw can from what I read on cricinfo. Only Kohli is capable of that in the current team. Mental stuff is jack squat without top notch skills. This is test cricket, not chess.

 

The pitch offers something for the new ball and gets easier later, so it makes sense to fight it out. 

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2 minutes ago, Clarke said:

Not everyone can put the bowler off. Maybe in the future Shaw can from what I read on cricinfo. Only Kohli is capable of that in the current team. Mental stuff is jack squat without top notch skills. This is test cricket, not chess.

 

The pitch offers something for the new ball and gets easier later, so it makes sense to fight it out. 

I agree. But let’s look at the players. Rahul or Dhawan. Did they have a chance to survive ? Not really. It was always a matter of time. 

 

If I was Shastri ( let me gulp that old monk first ) , I would have told Dhawan and Rahul to attack. Getting out LBW or caught for 10 or scoring 25 with miscues, I know what I would prefer. 

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20 minutes ago, ravishingravi said:

I agree. But let’s look at the players. Rahul or Dhawan. Did they have a chance to survive ? Not really. It was always a matter of time. 

 

If I was Shastri ( let me gulp that old monk first ) , I would have told Dhawan and Rahul to attack. Getting out LBW or caught for 10 or scoring 25 with miscues, I know what I would prefer. 

To be honest, it won't make any difference. They could get out on 0 as well. Dhawan actually was proactively looking for opportunities and maybe Rahul was as well. Look at what they're facing, 2 of England's atgs on their type of territory. Approach can't change anything in such cases without world class ability, defensive or attacking. If one can't gain a solid defense overnight, nor can one become a Richards or Ponting by some mental spice to take on very good swing bowling.

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1) Pitch deterioration

2) No 10-over limit for bowlers in Tests unlike LOI. You are consistently facing the opposition's best.    

3) Scoreboard pressure is a real thing. It's not just India, but every team struggles chasing anything excess of 200+ in Test cricket. And test matches already have more sporty pitches than LOI (which generally tend to be roads). Making it that much more difficult to chase.

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On 9/2/2018 at 4:46 PM, NareshK said:

ODIs/T20s are tailor made for batsmen. The red ball and the pitches in tests offers lot more help for bowlers especially on 4th and 5th days.

IS that why we had 200-210 as par score in ODI's during 1980s when limited overs cricket also used to be played with red ball?

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It's all about freaking commies behind the com box yelling like 5th day chase is difficult, history says this/that, blah blah blah. Those jokers have given negative insight to fans as well as players chasing on day 5 is very difficult. Its all about being positive and mentally strong and discard fake rumors.

 

Do you guys remember how we chased 300 in 50 odd overs in a couple of sessions on day 5 in UAE against SL in 2013 series? SL were 1-0 up and we had nothing to lose. We played positive aggressive cricket and let alone rumors. We were able to level the series 1-1 finally. No body thought test cricket became this much of aggressive where we maintained run rate as 5.2 per over. Bechara herath was wicketless.:cantstop:

Edited by Lala

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1. Mental block - history suggests you can't chase much in the 4th innings. Therefore as soon a score crosses a certain amount, typically 200, the bowling team feels in the game and the batting feels they have a tough task.

 

2. Pitch conditions - wear and tear means batsmen are never in. Contrast with white ball cricket where the ball rarely does anything off the straight.

 

3. Mindset - close in fielders means batsmen are constantly adapting their technique to avoid being caught in the various close in positions especially against spin bowling. This immediately puts the bowlers on top as a batsman's first instinct is to survive. Contrast to limited overs where the batsmen's instinct is to score. 

Edited by WeStMiDz

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a combination of both toughness and negative mind set . Just take Pandya & Pujara ....  contrast it with rookie Pant. Both Pandya & Pujara were far more capable of putting at the least  a few more runs than what they actually did.In such low scoring chases , no body is expecting you to score  100+............ 20+, 30+ etc would do a lot in eventually winning the match.For that you need to play with an absolute positive frame of mind and grit.Contrast it with Pant who scored a mere 18 of just 12 balls showing scoring runs are possible.

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2 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

a combination of both toughness and negative mind set . Just take Pandya & Pujara ....  contrast it with rookie Pant. Both Pandya & Pujara were far more capable of putting at the least  a few more runs than what they actually did.In such low scoring chases , no body is expecting you to score  100+............ 20+, 30+ etc would do a lot in eventually winning the match.For that you need to play with an absolute positive frame of mind and grit.Contrast it with Pant who scored a mere 18 of just 12 balls showing scoring runs are possible.

Note that Pujara has been our 2nd best batsman in the series with SENA specialists such as Rahane letting India down .... Pujara also scored 140+ runs in the test .... Pandya actually won us the 3rd test 

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13 minutes ago, zen said:

Note that Pujara has been our 2nd best batsman in the series with SENA specialists such as Rahane letting India down .... Pujara also scored 140+ runs in the test .... Pandya actually won us the 3rd test 

not at all blaming Pujara and Pandya  in the bigger scheme of things.Both of them did perform  fairly well over all. But yet,  situations like  the 2nd inns chase in the 4rth test are those do or die  moments where you badly expect players to show lot more grit and grind it out for a few tough runs . Here Pujara having lots of  experience  more than Pandya disappointed.If they both scored some 30-35 runs combined, that would even have given extra motivation for the likes of Shami & Ishant to hang in there.

Edited by rtmohanlal

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Kohli spoke about England being more brave -

 

its about playing a few shots and working with your percentage shots. 

 

Some one like Sehwag will be all intent that one extreme - the other is someone like Sachin who will crumble being circumspect..

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On 9/2/2018 at 4:38 PM, Austin 3:!6 said:

I mean 245 is a walk in the park in white ball cricket. Hell 245 is even scored in T20s and Rohit Sharma alone has 260 odd score.

But in test cricket India chased anything over 240 just 3 times in entire history, can you believe it? Why is there such a drastic difference? Does players need to change their mindset and go more into ODI mode while chasing in test cricket? How can batting in 4th innings be improved?

Asks teams in Asia cup if 245 is cake walk.

 

And these aren't even close to day 5 pitch. Much better than most day 5 pitches.

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