How did Bhuvneshwar Kumar survive this long in one-day setup?

[Kerberos]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

. I would be tempting to try someone like Ankit Rajpoot as the 3rd seamer when Shami is rested.

Same issue with Rajpoot. Bowls good but does not pick much wickets.

Siraj/Nathu/Avesh look potential wicket takers. Khejrolia also.However need to watch out for more of him.

[gakgupta]

31 minutes ago, express bowling said:

We need to create a pool of atleast 5 specialist ODI pacers if not more.  ( High wickets-per-match bowlers are very important in ODIs )

 

High wickets-per-match ----  Shami, Bumrah

 

Death bowling good ---- Bumrah ,  Bhuvi

 

Low ER ---- Bumrah, Bhuvi

 

New ones .... I would prefer high wickets-per-match type ..... try out Siraj,  Khejroliya, Nagarkoti, Nathu

         

              ----- 1 more low ER death bowling specialist needs to be developed too, for backup

who is that guy??

Never heard of him?

[express bowling]

49 minutes ago, gakgupta said:

who is that guy??

Never heard of him?

 

Nagarkoti made his List A debut this year.

 

Has picked up 9 wickets from 6 List-A  matches.

 

Plays for India U19 and runs through sides regularly.  Has picked up a 10-fer in a youth test recently.

 

Can bowl upto 90 mph.

 

Is handy with the bat.  Can become a bowling all-rounder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2017 by express bowling

[rkt.india]

40 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

6. Krunal  ( batting all-rounder )

7. Hardik  ( batting all-rounder )

8. Bhuvi  ( Low ER bowler, can bat a bit )

9. Kudeep  ( Wicket-taking spinner )

10. Shami / Khejroliya / Siraj / Nagarkoti  ( Wicket-taking pacer's slot )

11. Bumrah

 

 

yes this type of combination. Name of the players can change if we get a better option for that slot.

[Samcric]

7 hours ago, Lannister said:

What economy rates? It is as bad as his average against top teams, infact it's even close to 7 in some cases. 

Basil Thampi can bowl good yorkers and has even shown the ability to take wickets at a good ER. Not to mention there are many more who are coming through the ranks. 

A team with good bowlers who can take wickets, will be the team to win tournaments. For example, Aus in 2015 WC, Pak in 2017 CT. 

 

Regarding Economy rates, as you can see below, he is one of the top 2 bowlers (highlighted in green) overall as well as against all top teams except SA (every bowler has a boogie team or two as the data also suggests). In fact, below data clearly suggests that Bhuvi and Bumrah are the best in term of ER on a long-term basis based on the ODI cricket they have played so far.

 

 

You may choose to dissect data for last 12 months, last 2 months, last 2 weeks etc. To me, the best analysis is over a period of time especially for bowlers who have played 50-70 ODIs. Bumrah has played only 21. So better to look at the career data for these bowlers.

 

Regarding the second point on trying new bowlers, I agree on what you are suggesting which is that we should have a larger pool of good bowlers. I just don't like the fact that you are trying to put down Bhuvi in order to get to that point. Yes, his ODI bowling average is not very good but is it so important in ODIs as it is in Test matches? Not in my view. If a bowler can restrict runs, it is as important as getting wickets - remember the last ODI series against Aus and SA - matches were won or lost based on the last 10 overs. That is what will happen more often than not on 350-type wickets. If you want to build a team with bowlers like Steyn, Warne, Waqar who will get international teams out in 35 overs and have bowling averages of 25, good luck with that. Teams like England will keep coming at you even if they lose wickets and will bat 50 overs most of the times because they bat deep. You need bowlers in the team who can restrict them to 75-80 runs in the last 10 overs and not concede 100.

 

Last point on who should replace Bhuvi - The only name you gave was Thampi. I liked what I saw of him and I am all for him to be given a chance to see how good he is. But don't agree if the reason is that he 'seems' to be much better than bhuvi. Yes, he bowled 3-4 good yorkers in IPL but went for plenty. He also did not do as well in the SA A Triangular series as you claim. Was the 5th best Indian bowler in terms of ER and worst among regular bowlers in terms of SR and Average. Shardul Thakur was the best of the lot (considering both ER and ave) and he did get a chance. 

 

 

Bottomline - Yes, I would very much like to see young fast bowlers given a chance to create a pool of bowlers. But don't try to force-fit the notion that Bhuvi is a bad ODI bowler and others are so much better and it is such a miracle that he has been a part of the team for so long. He is a good ODI bowler as per most data-cuts and ICC ranking. He should only be dropped to try out new players (to create a larger pool) and not because of some imaginary reason that he is awful. 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Samcric

[Samcric]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

We should look to create a pool of good ODI pacers and rotate them.

 

Bhuvi is definitely one of them due to his low ER and good death bowling abilities.

 

But, if Shami is fit, it would be very unfair to exclude him from the 11 too,  as he is a wicket-taking bowler and has 91 wickets from only 49 ODIs  (  1.9 wickets per match ..... Wow  )

 

We suffered in the CT final, as we had only 1 wicket-taking bowler in Bumrah, and he failed.

 

I agree with that thought completely.

 

Just have a problem with the premise of this thread that we ought to do that because Bhuvi is so very bad! 

 

 

[Kerberos]

18 minutes ago, Samcric said:

 

Regarding Economy rates, as you can see below, he is one of the top 2 bowlers (highlighted in green) overall as well as against all top teams except SA (every bowler has a boogie team or two as the data also suggests). In fact, below data clearly suggests that Bhuvi and Bumrah are the best in term of ER on a long-term basis based on the ODI cricket they have played so far.

 

 

You may choose to dissect data for last 12 months, last 2 months, last 2 weeks etc. To me, the best analysis is over a period of time especially for bowlers who have played 50-70 ODIs. Bumrah has played only 21. So better to look at the career data for these bowlers.

 

Regarding the second point on trying new bowlers, I agree on what you are suggesting which is that we should have a larger pool of good bowlers. I just don't like the fact that you are trying to put down Bhuvi in order to get to that point. Yes, his ODI bowling average is not very good but is it so important in ODIs as it is in Test matches? Not in my view. If a bowler can restrict runs, it is as important as getting wickets - remember the last ODI series against Aus and SA - matches were won or lost based on the last 10 overs. That is what will happen more often than not on 350-type wickets. If you want to build a team with bowlers like Steyn, Warne, Waqar who will get international teams out in 35 overs and have bowling averages of 25, good luck with that. Teams like England will keep coming at you even if they lose wickets and will bat 50 overs most of the times because they bat deep. You need bowlers in the team who can restrict them to 75-80 runs in the last 10 overs and not concede 100.

 

Last point on who should replace Bhuvi - The only name you gave was Thampi. I liked what I saw of him and I am all for him to be given a chance to see how good he is. But don't agree if the reason is that he 'seems' to be much better than bhuvi. Yes, he bowled 3-4 good yorkers in IPL but went for plenty. He also did not do as well in the SA A Triangular series as you claim. Was the 5th best Indian bowler in terms of ER and worst among regular bowlers in terms of SR and Average. Shardul Thakur was the best of the lot (considering both ER and ave) and he did get a chance. 

 

 

Bottomline - Yes, I would very much like to see young fast bowlers given a chance to create a pool of bowlers. But don't try to force-fit the notion that Bhuvi is a bad ODI bowler and others are so much better and it is such a miracle that he has been a part of the team for so long. He is a good ODI bowler as per most data-cuts and ICC ranking. He should only be dropped to try out new players (to create a larger pool) and not because of some imaginary reason that he is awful. 

Which are the top teams according to you?  As per stats you posted Bhuvaneshwar Kumar has high to pretty usual economy rate against AUS, NZ and SA.  SL, PAK and WI are top teams?

How does that make him an economical bowler?

[express bowling]

35 minutes ago, Samcric said:

 

I agree with that thought completely.

 

Just have a problem with the premise of this thread that we ought to do that because Bhuvi is so very bad! 

 

 

 

I feel that there should be great clarity of thought regarding what kinds of players we want for specific playing conditions and different formats ..... keeping in mind the overall team composition and balance.

 

For example, in the ODI team,  having atleast a couple of wicket-taking bowlers and  atleast a couple of low ER death bowlers etc.   (may or may not be the same bowlers  ) ......  and having a couple of high SR batting all-rounders at No. 6 and No. 7 

 

In test matches, I really liked the fact that Kohli has used 2 quick reverse swing bowlers on the slow Asian pitches but, the moment a juicy pitch has presented itself, he has introduced an accurate swing and seam bowler.

 

But, in CT 17,  we saw wicket-taking bowlers being ignored by the same Kohli, albeit in ODIs.

 

Most of us tend to get biased either for or against individual names ..... but it should all be about what that player is bringing to the table as of today and whether he is fitting in the scheme of things regarding team composition and team requirement.     : )

 

As of today, Bhuvi is needed in ODIs but so is Shami ( in important ODI tournaments ).  This may or may not change in the coming days.

Edited September 9, 2017 by express bowling

[Samcric]

10 minutes ago, Kerberos said:

Which are the top teams according to you?  As per stats you posted Bhuvaneshwar Kumar has high to pretty usual economy rate against AUS, NZ and SA.  SL, PAK and WI are top teams?

How does that make him an economical bowler?

Top teams would be Aus, Eng, SA, NZ

 

He has good ER against Aus and NZ. You need to take into consideration the type of pitches (350-par) which is also reflected in the ER of other Indian bowlers. Bumrah has extremely good numbers but has played very few ODIs so data is limited. Also, Bhuvi has a very good ER against Eng.

 

SA and Eng are the boogie teams for Bhuvi and Bumrah respectively. It is near impossible to have a good ER against each and every team. 

[Pollack]

7 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I feel that there should be great clarity of thought regarding what kinds of players we want for specific playing conditions and different formats ..... keeping in mind the overall team composition and balance.

 

For example,  having atleast a couple of wicket-taking bowlers and  atleast a couple of low ER death bowlers etc.  in the ODI  team. (may or may not be the same bowlers  )

 

In test matches, I really liked the fact that Kohli has used 2 quick reverse swing bowlers on the slow Asian pitches but, the moment a juicy pitch has presented itself, he has introduced an accurate swing and seam bowler.

 

But, in CT 17,  we saw wicket-taking bowlers being ignored by the same Kohli, albeit in ODIs.

 

Most of us tend to get biased either for or against individual names ..... but it should all be about what that player is bringing to the table as of today and whether he is fitting in the scheme of things regarding team composition and team requirement.     : )

 

As of today, Bhuvi is needed in ODIs but so is Shami ( in important ODI tournaments ).

Why do we need an economical pace bowler? What purpose it serves? 

Bhuvi was economical in CT final and ended up creating no impact. Pakistan still scored high. 

On the other hand, Amir, for this one match bowled attackingly and created impact. Hasan did the same in other matches for Pakistan. Starc does that many times. 

Can you name a few succesfull economical pace bowlers around with impact performances in ODIs. Mathews has better economy rate and average than bhuvi. Is he better bowler than bhuvi? Obviously not.

 

 

[Samcric]

13 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

I feel that there should be great clarity of thought regarding what kinds of players we want for specific playing conditions and different formats ..... keeping in mind the overall team composition and balance.

 

For example, in the ODI team,  having atleast a couple of wicket-taking bowlers and  atleast a couple of low ER death bowlers etc.   (may or may not be the same bowlers  ) ......  and having a couple of high SR batting all-rounders at No. 6 and No. 7 

 

In test matches, I really liked the fact that Kohli has used 2 quick reverse swing bowlers on the slow Asian pitches but, the moment a juicy pitch has presented itself, he has introduced an accurate swing and seam bowler.

 

But, in CT 17,  we saw wicket-taking bowlers being ignored by the same Kohli, albeit in ODIs.

 

Most of us tend to get biased either for or against individual names ..... but it should all be about what that player is bringing to the table as of today and whether he is fitting in the scheme of things regarding team composition and team requirement.     : )

 

As of today, Bhuvi is needed in ODIs but so is Shami ( in important ODI tournaments ).

Very well put.

 

@Lannister

Death Bias is the enemy. It always wins. And we still need to fight it. :)

[express bowling]

 

Quote

Shardul Thakur was the best of the lot (considering both ER and ave) and he did get a chance. 

 

Not related to this topic but just discussing this bowler.

 

Shardul Thakur is a pacer who usually does well in important FC and List A games.

 

He has the skills and pace required in FC and I wanted to see how he does in international matches.

 

Just 2 matches is not enough to form a complete impression

 

.... but , in 4 out of his 5 spells, he looked innocuous and could not get any life out of the pitches on which Bumrah and Bhuvi were making the ball fly.  He lost some intensity too.

 

It does not help that he is really  short.

 

He should get more chances but I feel a bit disappointed as of today.  Not sure if he is international material but more matches could change this opinion though.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2017 by express bowling

[express bowling]

21 minutes ago, Pollack said:

Why do we need an economical pace bowler? What purpose it serves? 

Bhuvi was economical in CT final and ended up creating no impact. Pakistan still scored high. 

On the other hand, Amir, for this one match bowled attackingly and created impact. Hasan did the same in other matches for Pakistan. Starc does that many times. 

Can you name a few succesfull economical pace bowlers around with impact performances in ODIs. Mathews has better economy rate and average than bhuvi. Is he better bowler than bhuvi? Obviously not.

 

 

2 good death bowlers are needed, who do not give away lots of runs at the end.

 

But, as I said, atleast 2 wicket-taking bowlers are needed too in our ODI team. ( preferably 3 such bowlers )

 

In CT 17, we left out Shami and Kuldeep and picked almost all bowlers based on their ER..... and that was a major mistake.

 

We need to try out new wicket-taking bowlers like Siraj, Khejroliya, Nagarkoti etc.  in bilateral ODIs and see where it goes.

Edited September 9, 2017 by express bowling

[Samcric]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Not related to this topic but just discussing this bowler.

 

Shardul Thakur is a pacer who usually does well in important FC and List A games.

 

He has the skills and pace required in FC and I wanted to see how he does in international matches.

 

Just 2 matches is not enough to form a complete impression

 

.... but , in 4 out of his 5 spells, he looked innocuous and could not get any life out of the pitches on which Bumrah and Bhuvi were making the ball fly.  He lost some intensity too.

 

It does not help that he is really  short.

 

He should get more chances but I feel a bit disappointed as of today.  Not sure if he is international material but more matches could change this opinion though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

His natural length seemed to be just short of good length. If that's true, he should do well in bouncier/seaming pitches in SA and Australia but may go for plenty in conditions like Sub-continent/WI or perhaps even England/NZ. But I was pleasantly surprised and very happy to see him clock up to 148kph. We need to be patient with all these new blokes. I am sure we will find 2-3 really good pacers in the coming months who will play for India for the next 10 years. All the guys you have mentioned in this thread are good prospects and the new rotational policy by the selectors does help. I am especially excited to see Nagarkoti and Mavi as both seem to have batting potential as well.

 

 

 

 

 

[express bowling]

27 minutes ago, Samcric said:

 

His natural length seemed to be just short of good length. If that's true, he should do well in bouncier/seaming pitches in SA and Australia but may go for plenty in conditions like Sub-continent/WI or perhaps even England/NZ. But I was pleasantly surprised and very happy to see him clock up to 148kph. We need to be patient with all these new blokes. I am sure we will find 2-3 really good pacers in the coming months who will play for India for the next 10 years. All the guys you have mentioned in this thread are good prospects and the new rotational policy by the selectors does help. I am especially excited to see Nagarkoti and Mavi as both seem to have batting potential as well.

 

 

I think his stock ball is the fullish length outswinger, which he changes and shortens his length  when he feels there is no swing.

 

That 148 k is not his normal pace .... he is more a 131 k to 141 k type bowler in most spells, going down in pace by a bit to 130 k to 137 k in  his later spells.   That is what we saw in the IPL too.

Edited September 9, 2017 by express bowling

[Sean Bradley]

BK is like a long term SIP, he had dip in his graph in the middle part of his career, but bounced back beautifully, and he is bowling quite well since the Champions Trophy, we need someone to fill the void left by Zaheer Khan as a leader of the bowling attack, i think BK has the potential and Brains to be a successor of ZAK. 

[Vk1]

Personally I think he should be told clearly what the team expects from him. On flat 320+ pitches he should bowl wide yorkers all the time at death with third man and a deep point knowing well that his figures may read 10-0-62-0. This in my view is better than the usual good length bowling that leads to 10-0-77-2 kind of figures. 

In a run fest series against top teams, it should be alright even if he takes just 3 or 4 wickets in 5 matches with e.r below 6.5  

 

On helpful pitches he can bowl as he likes. 

 

 

 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Vk1

[sandeep]

7 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Not related to this topic but just discussing this bowler.

 

Shardul Thakur is a pacer who usually does well in important FC and List A games.

 

He has the skills and pace required in FC and I wanted to see how he does in international matches.

 

Just 2 matches is not enough to form a complete impression

 

.... but , in 4 out of his 5 spells, he looked innocuous and could not get any life out of the pitches on which Bumrah and Bhuvi were making the ball fly.  He lost some intensity too.

 

It does not help that he is really  short.

 

He should get more chances but I feel a bit disappointed as of today.  Not sure if he is international material but more matches could change this opinion though.

 

 

 

 

 

That's quite a swing of the pendulum in terms of your opinion on Shardul.  You were quite high on him after the 1st game.  He did have a poor 2nd game, and agree about his height issue etc.  To me, he's the next Dhaval Kulkarni type, until he proves otherwise.  I didn't find his performance that impressive in the 1st game to begin with.

[sandeep]

4 hours ago, Sean Bradley said:

BK is like a long term SIP, he had dip in his graph in the middle part of his career, but bounced back beautifully, and he is bowling quite well since the Champions Trophy, we need someone to fill the void left by Zaheer Khan as a leader of the bowling attack, i think BK has the potential and Brains to be a successor of ZAK. 

In terms of brains, Bumrah has by far the best of the lot.  Forget age and experience - the way this guy mixes up his arsenal of deliveries, almost always manages to keep the batsmen guessing.   I love his bowling intelligence.  Bhuvi - I'm a self-confessed fan, because I think he has a rare skill to really move the ball both ways without giving it away in his action and release - but he is still in the process of deploying his skills effectively.   He's done a lot to improve -added pace, gotten stronger without losing that movement, but I feel he could and should do better given the skillset he has.  

[GolGappe]

Who are his competitors in one-day arena? Mohit Sharma, Ishant Sharma, Dhinda??

Good option to have it in squad if you wish to rest your main bowlers during faltu games.