Its disturbing to see Muslims being targeted : Tapsee Pannu

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, Tobacco said:

I am unable to post a thread/discussion at the moment, so posting it here. How do people here feel about the emotions described by Admiral Ramdas, Chief of Naval Staff (Retired). 

 

Main points:

• Nuclear weapons are no more than status symbol.
• Chest thumping is dangerous. 
• There is a prevalent belief in India and Pakistan, but especially in India, that if we brandish the big stick, the other party will back down; this has NEVER happened in the past. 
• If USSR and USA talked at the height of cold war and averted many crises, why shouldn't India and Pakistan? In fact India should be the one to ask Pakistan for a dialogue. 
• Please leave your comments here but also directly under the video to enable to wider community to engage and hear from each other. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgP_0v841AI&t=1067s

 

Extreme Chest Thumping and Stick works.

 

But it could work both sides, the good one as abolishing of slavery by giving a stick to the Muslims countries, or evil one like prophet Muhammad gave to the the pagans of Arab after becoming powerful and compelled them to accept Islam, or otherwise they would be killed. 

 

Regarding Pakistan, the issue is a double edge sword.  The first edge is State of Pakistan itself, and the other edge is non State Actors in Pakistan i.e. the extremist outfits. 

 

You may overcome the problems with State of Pakistan, but how are you going to control the non-state actors? 

 

There must be no problem for normal people on both sides of the borders. They should get easily visas, educations ties, medical ties, cultural ties. 

 

On State level too problems could be solved to large extent. 

 

But if State of Pakistan want to keep the non state actors as their Asset, then there could be nothing done against it except total boycott. 

 

Lately, Pakistan once again gave permission to all banned extremist outfits to contest for elections, including Hafiz Saeed. 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by Alam_dar

[Tobacco]

19 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Extreme Chest Thumping and Stick works.

 

But it could work both sides, the good one as abolishing of slavery by giving a stick to the Muslims countries, or evil one like prophet Muhammad gave to the the pagans of Arab after becoming powerful and compelled them to accept Islam, or otherwise they would be killed. 

 

Regarding Pakistan, the issue is a double edge sword.  The first edge is State of Pakistan itself, and the other edge is non State Actors in Pakistan i.e. the extremist outfits. 

 

You may overcome the problems with State of Pakistan, but how are you going to control the non-state actors? 

 

There must be no problem for normal people on both sides of the borders. They should get easily visas, educations ties, medical ties, cultural ties. 

 

On State level too problems could be solved to large extent. 

 

But if State of Pakistan want to keep the non state actors as their Asset, then there could be nothing done against it except total boycott. 

 

Lately, Pakistan once again gave permission to all banned extremist outfits to contest for elections, including Hafiz Saeed. 

 

 

Alam dar, 

 

good points but did you watch the video? 

What do you have to say about the nuclear issues that he discusses?

 

One feels that non-state actors are an instrument of both Indian and Pakistani policy. While Pakistani non-state actors are talked up a lot, people forget that Ajit Doval has lectured university students no less, to use TTP as mercenaries against Pakistan. This goes alongwith the support of Mukti Bahni in the then East Pakistan. 

 

One feels that as people like Mr Ramdas (a warrior himself) are heard more by masses across India and Pakistan, there will be more pressure on respective governemnts to talk to each other. Without talks, there is no resolution. 

 

Please add your comments on youtube itself for a wider viewing. 

[Tobacco]

also, I am not sure where Prophet Muhammad asked Arabs to accept Islam or be killed. 

[beetle]

Admiral Ramdas is hardly a neutral person to be taken seriously.

His daughter is married to a Pakistani hence pakistan bent.

[Malcolm Merlyn]

Admiral Ramdas is hardly a neutral person to be taken seriously.
His daughter is married to a Pakistani hence pakistan bent.

Wife is with Green Peace.

Daughter also Heads Ford Foundation India.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[zen]

Why do I only see messages mostly from Hindus that people of other religion should not be targeted? Why can't people of other religions post messages on not targeting Hindus whether in places like Kashmir or abroad. 

[nikred]

Why do I only see messages mostly from Hindus that people of other religion should not be targeted? Why can't people of other religions post messages on not targeting Hindus whether in places like Kashmir or abroad. 

Hindus are majority, so crime against them doesn't matter. But they should collectively feel ashamed whenever a crime is committed on a minority.

Sent from my Redmi Note 4 using Tapatalk

[someone]

There are two kinds of people. One who blames everything on Muslims, while other who makes Muslims as only victims. Both sides will blow out of proportion.  So we need a middle ground. However, India is a weird place, where it's taboo to talk any Muslim aggression and then, there is whole industry marketing the victimhood part. So here, it's complete one way traffic with this movie as another example.

 

They call themselves peace-loving, but it's actually peace-loving victims. Ultimately, it's two things, one is religion of peace and them being the biggest victims. Both has to be countered especially the latter, as it's not discussed at all.

[Alam_dar]

3 hours ago, Tobacco said:

also, I am not sure where Prophet Muhammad asked Arabs to accept Islam or be killed. 

According to Muslim Scholars this verse of "NO Compulsion" had been later abrogated by the "Verse of Sword" (i.e. to kill the Polytheists wherever they are found). 

According to Quran (Surah Tauba 29) only Ahle Kitab (i.e. Christians/Jews/Zoroastrians) will not be "compelled" to change their religion, but they are allowed to pay the Jizya and keep on practising their religion.

But as far as Polythests (which include all other groups except Ahle Kitaab... like Atheists) are concerned, then after verse of Sword, they will be "compelled" to either accept Islam, or they should be killed. 

The largest Islamic Fatwa website "Islam Question Answer" (which is run by Saudi Mufties) writes:

https://islamqa.info/en/34770

Question: 

Some friends say that whoever does not enter Islam, that is his choice and he should not be forced to become Muslim, quoting as evidence the verses in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 
“And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So, will you (O Muhammad) then compel mankind, until they become believers” 
[Yoonus 10:99] 
“There is no compulsion in religion” 
[al-Baqarah 2:256] 
What is your opinion concerning that?.

Answer:

The scholars explained that these two verses, and other similar verses, have to do with those from whom the jizyah may be taken (i.e. Ahle Kitaab), such as Jews, Christians and Magians (Zoroastrians). They are not to be forced, rather they are to be given the choice between becoming Muslim or paying the jizyah. 

Other scholars said that this applied in the beginning, but was subsequently abrogated by Allaah’s command to fight and wage jihad. So whoever refuses to enter Islam should be fought when the Muslims are able to fight, until they either enter Islam or pay the jizyah if they are among the people who may pay jizyah (i.e. Ahle Kitaab). 
The kuffaar should be compelled to enter Islam if they are not people from whom the jizyah may be taken (i.e. Ahle Kitaab), because that will lead to their happiness and salvation in this world and in the Hereafter ...
Some of the scholars are of the view that others may also be given the choice between Islam and jizyah, but the most correct view is that no others should be given this choice, rather these three groups are the only ones who may be given the choice, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) fought the kuffaar in the Arabian Peninsula and he only accepted their becoming Muslim. And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

“Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5] 
 

Few more historical facts are as under:

(1) Verse of "No Compulsion" was revealed in the initial period of Madina when Muslims were weak. 

(2) Verse of Sword (i.e. Killing all the Mushrikeen) was revealed at the end in 9th Hijri, when Muslims got full power and control and no power was left in Arabia to stop the Muslims from it.

(3) Thus Muhammad killed all the Polytheists (Mushrikeen) in Arabia. This practice also continued during the era of Companions (Sahaba). 

(4) Then came Abu Hanifa, who was the first one who said it was only obligatory upon Prophet Muhammad to kill all the Mushrikeen, but now Muslims could also take Jizya from Polytheists and let them live. 

(5) But Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal and Imam Shafii and Imam Ibn Hazm contradicted this new fatwa of Abu Hanifa, while there was an Ijma of Companions (Sahaba) that Polytheists should be kept killing even after the death of Prophet Muhammad. 

Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqallani writes in his book "Fath-ul-Bari" (link):

وروى عبد بن حميد في تفسير سورة البروج بإسناد صحيح عن ابن أبزى " لما هزم المسلمون أهل فارس قال عمر : اجتمعوا . فقال : إن المجوس ليسوا أهل كتاب فنضع عليهم ، ولا من عبدة الأوثان فنجري عليهم أحكامهم فقال علي : بل هم أهل كتاب "’
Translation: 
According to an "authentic tradition" when Muslims defeated the Persians, then Umar Ibn Khattab (the 2nd Caliph) collected the Companions (Sahaba) and asked them that Zoroastrians are neither from people of book (Ahl-e-Kitaab) that we take Jizya from them, nor are they from Polytheists that we kill them. 
Upon that Ali Ibn Abi Talib (the 4th Caliph) witnessed that Zoroastrians are among the people of book.

And Saudi Mufti Albani graded this hadith of Sunnan Abu Dawud as "authentic" (link):

لم يكن عمر يأخذ الجزية من المجوس حتى شهد عبد الرحمن بن عوف أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أخذها من مجوس هجر . 
Translation:
Umar Ibn Khattab didn't want to take Jizya money from Zoroastrians (but wanted to kill them as Polytheists), but companion Abdul Rehman bin Auf told him that Prophet Muhammad took Jizya money from Zoroastrians too.

Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqallani also recorded the following "authentic" tradition (link):

وروى أبو عبيد بإسناد صحيح عن حذيفة " لولا أني رأيت أصحابي أخذوا الجزية من المجوس ما أخذتها "
Translation:
If my companions had not taken Jizya money from Zoroastrians, then I would have not taken it from them (but killed them as polytheists).

(6) If today any Islamic Caliphate is established from followers of Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (i.e. Salafies) or Imam Shafii, then once against this Islamic Caliphate is going to compel the Polytheists/Atheists to accept Islam or otherwise they will slaughter them. 

---

So this much to "No Compulsion". 

Actually compulsion is every where when a person is denied his basic human right and threatened to be killed if he leaves Islam. 

And compulsion is there when Non Muslims are not allowed to do Tableegh of their views and they will be killed if they do so.

[mishra]

23 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

They allow the Non-Muslims to farm the pigs, slaughter them and eat them and sell in the markets which are only limited to the Non-Muslims. Same is with Alcohol. Non Muslims are allowed to drink Alcohol, but in homes, just like eating porks in home. 

 

Nevertheless, it is a Muslim trait when they don't let other peoples drink or eat when they fast in the month of Ramadhan. 

 

And we know that Islam should not be a standard to be followed. 

 

And this argument will also not work that Muslims should eat only camels as Arabs do. There is whole Chapter in Quran with the name of al-Baqara (the Cow). 

 

===

 

You said Muslims should stop eating beef for showing respect. 

 

While real respect means let others live according to their beliefs and don't impose your beliefs upon the others. So, question is how much do you respect the Muslims? Are you ready to let them live according to their beliefs?

 

We may hate Islam, but still we had to give the basic human rights to them i.e. to let them decide for themselves and don't impose anything upon the others. 

Lol. If you mean western army by non Muslim then your statement is ok. Let someone who doesnt own That kind of passport try that. 

But before that , let some countries first have law and order and not doing ethinic cleansing.

middle eas was full of Christians and tribals. Now count allmost negligible. 20 years diwn the line, It will become zero.

so please dont put Islamic nations and standards in rest of worlds discussion

Edited July 12, 2018 by mishra

[asterix]

Wife is with Green Peace.

Daughter also Heads Ford Foundation India.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Admiral Ramdas and his family are certified AAPTards... Don’t even waste your time watching him...

This talk with Pakistan is a red herring. Whom to talk to in Pakistan? Govt or Army? Once you start dialogues, ISI will start attacking India. Then you can’t even back out else Libtards would say that you are “bowing down to non-state actors”.

Pak has no significance in the path of India’s progress towards development. Talking with Pak is waste of time and losing focus.

NDA needs to focus on winning the next term. Non-developmental issues like minorities & Pak can wait.

[mishra]

Today Sagarika interview question to Hamid Ansari (ex VP) posted on TOI was saying exactly same thing.

 

 I think this is new "Award Vaapasi" type campaign till next election as instances of beef lynching has not just gone down but actually is massively outnumbered compared to Child Kidnapper lynchings.

To put in oerspecyive, child kidnapper lynching caauality count is around 100 in last 6 months, while alleged beef lynching/cattle thief lynching is still under 10 in last 4 years

Edited July 12, 2018 by mishra

[Alam_dar]

15 minutes ago, mishra said:

Lol. If you mean western army by non Muslim then your statement is ok. Let someone who doesnt own That kind of passport try that. 

But before that , let some countries first have law and order and not doing ethinic cleansing.

middle eas was full of Christians and tribals. Now count allmost negligible. 20 years diwn the line, It will become zero.

so please dont put Islamic nations and standards in rest of worlds discussion

Sir, I am absolutely not in favour of Islam and Muslims and totally agree with you about the evils in Islamic Countries due to Islamic Sharia and Muslims. 

 

Nevertheless, here the topic is Beef Ban, and one member claimed that Muslims also don't let Pork/Alcohol sell or eat/drink in Muslim Countries. But this information is not correct. Despite all their evils, still Islamic countries do allow the non-Muslims to eat pork and drink alcohol, but in the private. 

 

Therefore, in India:

 

1st Option:  There should be absolutely no ban on beef. This is what my choice is. 

 

2nd Option: Ban the Beef ONLY for Hindus, while allow the minorities to eat the beef, just like Islamic countries allow the non-Muslims to eat Pork and drink alcohol. 

 

 

 

 

[coffee_rules]

2 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

Sir, I am absolutely not in favour of Islam and Muslims and totally agree with you about the evils in Islamic Countries due to Islamic Sharia and Muslims. 

 

Nevertheless, here the topic is Beef Ban, and one member claimed that Muslims also don't let Pork/Alcohol sell or eat/drink in Muslim Countries. But this information is not correct. Despite all their evils, still Islamic countries do allow the non-Muslims to eat pork and drink alcohol, but in the private. 

I already got corrected, but I have explained it is not the same. Do muslims consider pigs sacred? It's more like they think it is filthy. It's not case with Hindus who consider cows sacred. Not even holy, it is sacred, they find divinity in them. Hence, it is a bit of a stretch to expect them to start serving beef from cows with an open heart.

 

2 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

Therefore, in India:

 

1st Option:  There should be absolutely no ban on beef. This is what my choice is. 

 

2nd Option: Ban the Beef ONLY for Hindus, while allow the minorities to eat the beef, just like Islamic countries allow the non-Muslims to eat Pork and drink alcohol. 

No way, as long as there is RW, beef will not be accepted. Beef is still available for all from buffaloes. Go knock yourself out!

 

2 hours ago, Alam_dar said:

 

 

 

 

[mishra]

@Alam_dar i remember, my childhood, in those days, the so called "cattle businessmen " use to come to our villages, once every year and give very good price for our cows/bulls/buffaloes which used to be lot better than other buyers. So , a lot of villgers happily sold their livestock to them.

 

When,  i mooved to kolkata (early teens) i came to see a lot of calves underfed , weak because the Hindu owner of that Milk Joint was overmilking amd not leaving anything for calves, just to maximise the profit.

 

During Kolkata days, i remember people discussing rumours that how around mid night on certain date a massive amount of cattle is smuggled/crosses Howrah Bridge. We used to live close to Jowrah Bridge, but it was kust a rumour, and Not a point of discussion. I.e. Heard it only once.

 

Now, only now,  i have come to know that we villagers were actually selling our cattles, some of which crossed Howrah bridge to reach slaughter houses in india or Bangladesh. Had we known that the so called cattle Businessman paying so good price was actually buying it from us to sell it again to slaughter house., No one would have sold it to them and if they would have had some cattle, I can guarantee, no one would have waited to chk if Their is Modi in centre or not. People would have beaten those trades and freed the cattle.

 

Edited July 12, 2018 by mishra

[Alam_dar]

30 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I already got corrected, but I have explained it is not the same. Do muslims consider pigs sacred? It's more like they think it is filthy. It's not case with Hindus who consider cows sacred. Not even holy, it is sacred, they find divinity in them. Hence, it is a bit of a stretch to expect them to start serving beef from cows with an open heart.

I agree. It is different. 

 

30 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

No way, as long as there is RW, beef will not be accepted.

Respect should not be imposed. It is the path of Muslims where they impose their restrictions of not eating/drinking upon the Non-Muslims as sign of respect to Ramadhan.  

 

But respect should come only through Preaching.

 

All Hindus are totally free to preach about non-meat and respect of cow and about Hindu religion. Only this way, the respect comes through the depths of the heart. 

 

These are the Universal Human Morals. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Beef is still available for all from buffaloes. Go knock yourself out!

Yes, it may help a bit. 

 

Nevertheless, it is very difficult to differentiate between the cooked meat of cow or buffalo. 

 

My first option still stays what True Secularism tells, that every one should be allowed what one wishes and eating habits or prohibitions should not be imposed. They are counter productive and will keep on spreading the hatred

[Alam_dar]

6 minutes ago, mishra said:

@Alam_dar i remember, my childhood, in those days, the so called "cattle businessmen " use to come to our villages, once every year and give very good price for our cows/bulls/buffaloes which used to lot better than other buyers. So , a lot of villgers happily sold their livestock to them.

 

When,  i mooved to kolkata (early teens) i came to see a lot of calves underfed , weak because the Hindu owner of that Milk Joint was overmilking amd not leaving anything for calves, just to maximise the profit.

 

During Kolkata days, i remember people discussing rumours that how around mid night on certain date a massive amount of cattle is smuggled/crosses Howrah Bridge. We used to live close to Jowrah Bridge, but it was kust a rumour, and Not a point of discussion. I.e. Heard it only once.

 

Now, only now,  i have come to know that we villagers were actually selling our cattles which crossed Howrah bridge to reach slaughter houses in india or Bangladesh. Had we known that the so called cattle Businessman paying so good price was actually buying it from us to sell it again to slaughter house., No one would have sold it to them and if they would have had some cattle, I can guarantee, no one would have waited to chk if Their is Modi in centre or not. People would have beaten those trades and freed the cattle.

 

 

I understand the emotions. 

 

But as I suggested, people should try to convince others through preaching, and not through imposing. This is a golden rule. 

 

Muslims also make the respect of their Prophet and Quran and Sharia an emotional question, and as results we see draconian Blasphemy Laws and lynching and killings. 

 

Decisions should not be made upon emotions, but upon the golden rules. We are humans and our rationale is good enough to guide us towards these rules of living in harmony and peace with others who think differently. 

 

You see, you may enforce your will and stop cow slaughter in India by punishing people by sending them in jails.

But what about the whole world? 

Or ONLY the cows of India are sacred? 

Or are you going to wage a war against whole world in name of respect of cow? 

 

We all want peace. We all want love in this world. 

 

And most peaceful countries at moment are those who respect the beliefs of others and never try to impose something upon the minorities. I wish and I hope one day India too become most peaceful and loving place on the earth. 

[mishra]

^ I do not think u are getting the point.

India is culturally, religioisly, socially , economically and emotionally vegetarian. Even the ones who eat meat cant withstand a slaughter.

And most cant cant withstand the smell. 

On top of it, Cow is religiously sacred for them. Hence iirc bjpa Yogi did mention that, the traders who are buying these cattles should be disclosing why they are buying the cattle for to the villagers. 

So Hindus are not stopping anyone from eating beef. Just dont eat it on same dinner table. When u make the beef dish, ensure that leftovers are disposed such that its not in front of Hindus. Dont slaughter in front of them, if you are buying, Let them know that cattle they are selling is going to be slaughtered.

Most Hindus do not want to live beside Muslims is not down to just religios threat of Islam. They simply cant take the eating habbit and industry around that eating habbits of Muslim.

Edited July 12, 2018 by mishra

[dial_100]

If Russians had cut US with 1000 wounds then you should have seen what US would have done to them or vice-versa. 

 

Stop preaching to us. We dont talk to terrorist. US did not talk to Taliban, they simply wipe them off. India should never talk to terrorist nation until they drop the arm and decide not to take arms no matter what. But you know Talibani mentality. 

[Singh bling]

1 hour ago, mishra said:

@Alam_dar i remember, my childhood, in those days, the so called "cattle businessmen " use to come to our villages, once every year and give very good price for our cows/bulls/buffaloes which used to be lot better than other buyers. So , a lot of villgers happily sold their livestock to them.

 

When,  i mooved to kolkata (early teens) i came to see a lot of calves underfed , weak because the Hindu owner of that Milk Joint was overmilking amd not leaving anything for calves, just to maximise the profit.

 

During Kolkata days, i remember people discussing rumours that how around mid night on certain date a massive amount of cattle is smuggled/crosses Howrah Bridge. We used to live close to Jowrah Bridge, but it was kust a rumour, and Not a point of discussion. I.e. Heard it only once.

 

Now, only now,  i have come to know that we villagers were actually selling our cattles, some of which crossed Howrah bridge to reach slaughter houses in india or Bangladesh. Had we known that the so called cattle Businessman paying so good price was actually buying it from us to sell it again to slaughter house., No one would have sold it to them and if they would have had some cattle, I can guarantee, no one would have waited to chk if Their is Modi in centre or not. People would have beaten those trades and freed the cattle.

 

Your villagers must be very innocents or should I say they just want to turn blind eye.If a person is paying very good price for old cows , useless bulls then it is a open fact that he will slaughter or smuggle them.

 

As far not selling them is concerned you people actually have no idea what frankastein monster you people are creating

 

Abhi to shuruaat hai aage aage dekhiye hota hai kya