Many Sikhs in UK don’t want to be identified as ‘Indian’

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, Vilander said:

Indian is a nationality - not an ethnicity, its UK's dumbness that they think they can call some people Indian when they are not Indian nationals - no one cares. 

no, but it can be used in an analogous sense as 'europeans', as well. It doesn't matter if the UK Sikhs of indic roots do not see themselves as Indian. Academia will continue to see so, because while strictly speaking, 'indian' is not a race, academia is slowly warming to the idea of seeing the Indian identity as similar to an 'European' one, as in a culture/social sphere. 

[MechEng]

ICF gets more red hot than Indo-Pak debates when it's Punjab vs Bengal or CSK vs non CSK fans 

[Muloghonto]

11 hours ago, PBN said:

Wrong, Sikh Empire was quite wealthy and Punjab has always been well do with its fertile land.

Wrong. I can refer you to sources that track the history of irrigation in Punjab through the last couple of millenias. We also have corroborating views of historic visitors to India. Punjab prior to the mughals was largely unremarkable. Think much more of the 'nile', especially in the southern portion (relative to Punjab, not whole course-length) for Bari and Rechna doab. Yes, relative to the world, it has been quite fertile but relative to India and most of rest of Eastern half of Asia, it has been, historically unremarkable. 

 

The mughals were the first since pretty much the Kushans (who were foreigners and not based in Punjab either, ruling from two capitals- one at Bagram(AFG) and Mathura) to undertake any major irrigation works in Punjab. Yet, until the British times, Punjab did not get beyond 5-10% of the irrigation it has since then. 

All this shows, that Punjab has historically been an unremarkable region. This is also why, Punjab has zero native influence in the classical and medeival times. 

 

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There are five rivers flowing through it and makes farming ideal  Even before irrigation canals, there were tube well form of irrigation since the 1600s.  Comparing Bengal with Punjab on the basis on taxation is foolish. Taxation in Mughal period  doesn't imply much and that too in two varied distant lands. 

No, it directly implies that Bengal had a greater, thriving economy than Punjab. Its straightforward math : if province X generates income of value A & province Y generates income of value B, if A > B, then province A is more developed than province B, provided taxation was proportionate. 

Which it was for the mughal empire- chauth (1/4th of revenue). 

 

You can whine about it being due to greater population itself (so not greater per capita), but thats irrelevant, we are comparing the regions as a whole. The argument is not about Bengal, its about Punjab. I will be happy to compare it with Gujju-land and demonstrate how Gujju-land has been a bigger economic & cultural powerhouse historically than Punjab. 

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Moghuls might have just concentrated on Bengal rather than Punjab or Punjabis didn't shell out tax as there were constant uprisings in Punjab during the Mughal period.

Your constant uprisings are neither true, nor do they matter in face of 150+ years of tax records. Punjab went through decades of peace and prosperity as well for most of it. Still, chauth of Lahore and Multan were amongst the lowest of the 'main revenue generators' for the empire. 

Sikhs were not major players in Punjabi economy of history till after 1700s. So their rebellions and struggles, while relevant to Punjabi identity today, is largely irrelevant to the historic identity of Punjab stretching for 2000+ years or even for much of Akbar, Jahangir, Shah-Jahan & Aurangzeb's time. A few Sikh villages out of thousands in Punjab going down heroically/resisting, is irrelevant to the economy and stability of the whole region. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

8 hours ago, PBN said:

 

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  And lastly,  Bengal's population is 3 times that of Punjab and has remained around the same. 

 

Please learn better math. Punjab to Bengal ratios of population are more or less 140:230. Ie, 1:1.6x-ish. 

What we also know, is that for most of history(till about 400 years ago), the eastern half of Bangladesh (just east of Dhaka onwards) was not part of bengal, nor developed much (it used to part of Assam actually). 

 

So historically, they've been much closer in population than they are currently. 

 

Simple reality is, Punjab, for most of history, had very little to offer in terms of value. Combined with its low agricultural yeild compared to the land, its historic position has been either border provinces of Indian empires (and being under-developed) or launch-pads for invaders to rest of the subcontinent ( not just Ghorids and Ghaznavids, but also Alchon Huns, Indo-Greeks, Indo-Parthians), serving as pillaged & backwards province of the invaders. 

 

Even under Kushan times, there is a decisive material drop-off between Taxila and Jalandhar. 

 

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The kohlinoor was in control of Punjab during the Sikh Empire and it was a prosperous land.

You sure you wanna brag about that ? 

Bravo, O-brave Punjabi, the world's greatest jewel was under your empire, before the British defeated you and won it over. 

The history of the Kohinoor is a brilliant one, with it falling into a long list of hands, as war-booty.

 

Yet, there is one exception to the Kohinoor exchanging hands after either direct loss at war and paying tribute for not being massacred more ( eg: Nader Shah) or directly included in peace treaty offering after annexation/loss(eg: Punjab to the Brits). 

 

And that is, how Punjab got it !! 

Long story short, Ranjit Singh acquired the Koh-i-noor by a stroke of unparalleled luck in the 600+ year history of the gem: he found a bedraggled king, on the run from a recent coup with part of his court and a few houshold guards, requesting urgent assylum, who happened to have the Koh-i-noor on him. This chap, who was also a horrible human being deserving to be overthrown, went by the name of Shah Shuja Durrani. Google him. Read. 

Both Afghan and Brit sources (who were monitoring the happenings of the region) confirm that Ranjit Singh offered shelter expressedly on a one-time payment fee of the Koh-i-noor. 

 

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Punjab wasn't even annexed about 100 years after the rest of India esp Bengal.

You mean the lands furthest from the seas were the last to be conquered by a naval power from a quarter of the way around the globe, sending ships over to project power into a region nearly 100x its population ?!

You don't say, genius...

Edited July 26, 2018 by Muloghonto

[Vilander]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

no, but it can be used in an analogous sense as 'europeans', as well. It doesn't matter if the UK Sikhs of indic roots do not see themselves as Indian. Academia will continue to see so, because while strictly speaking, 'indian' is not a race, academia is slowly warming to the idea of seeing the Indian identity as similar to an 'European' one, as in a culture/social sphere. 

it is practiced, does not mean its universally accepted. European or Indian would still not be a cultural ethnicity as much as regional identity, and surely Indian will not be a cultural ethnicity to the degree of say Italian or English, that would be Tamil/Bengali/Punjabi etc. This is the difference i am talking about, India we call sub nationalities ( with 40-200 mil people and a distinct geographic spread) as states, in Europe same is called countries - this is just a political setup, India is more politically integrated than Europe because of regional necessities - this leads to confusion among westerner simpletons in expecting 'Indian' to be as much of a cultural identity as say an Italian or French, while we want that level of integration too for nation building, it is not always true, hence the diversity acceptance almost as a lip service when it comes to defining India. And its not needed as well, India is a sub continent integrated as a Nation state - pretty powerful politically entity because of that, not a race or even a nationality in a strict parlance, its citizenry with multiple federated sub nationalities - so be it who the fcuk cares - we are big baby.

[Vilander]

3 hours ago, MechEng said:

CSK vs non CSK fans

CSK vs Chew Lobby you mean. No csk has hard feelings for other fans , with MI its not banter - they take it serious.

[mancalledsting]

7 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

You can whine as much as you want but facts are facts. Mughals collected chauth from every Subah.

So the Subahs that generated more income were the more prosperous ones and the ones that generated less were the poor ones. That much is simple logic.

And yes, historically speaking, Punjab is a small player in Indian history, punching way below its weight. Until Ranjit Singh, there was not a SINGLE native, Punjabi kingdom, never mind an empire.

 

You know who's the historical big daddy of subcontinental history ? Bihar. What Bihar had done for Indian history, culture, philosophy and global identity, rest of India combined pales into insignificance.

 

Next in line for punching way above their weight are the Tamils, Karnataka and Maharashtra.

 

Then, far far behind them, come the Rajputs and Bengal. 

 

Holding their own would be Gujarat, Orissa and Assam.

 

Below par would be UP, but it's understandable because for most of its history UP has been a satellite of Bihar.

 

You know who've done jack **** till the last 200 years, serving as nothing more than a backwards, poor border province or living under the boot of countless invaders, even before the Muslims ? Punjab.

 

Those facts are self evident from history. And it's ironic that amongst Indians, it's the Punjabis the ho show the most racist attitude towards rest of the subcontinent. Classic 'chip on the shoulder + Johnny come lately ' syndrome. 

It’s quite funny; you accuse others of being racist and having a chip on their shoulder, when you yourself are the bext exponent of these qualities

[velu]

funny to see punjabis and bongs fighting for who won more nobel prize for science

tamils won more nobel prize for science than rest of the indians combined ( rest includes both punjabis and bongs ) ..

 

and coming back to sports , we all know punjus lost hope on their own men and hired a guy from the south to lead their team  

[velu]

kicking ass comes naturally to us tamils ..  ( more than bongs or punjabis ) 

 

[mancalledsting]

This is why it’s important to call people out on their BS:

 

UK academic source FYI, not the copy from your local bazaar that you seem to be reading from:

 

http://www.vam.ac.uk/content/articles/t/the-panjab-and-the-rise-of-sikh-power/

 

‘The Panjab was the wealthiest province of the Mughal empire in the late 16th and 17th centuries.‘ 

 

‘His rule was characterised by his tolerance, with Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims all holding equally high office at court.’

 

[mancalledsting]

5 minutes ago, velu said:

funny to see punjabis and bongs fighting for who won more nobel prize for science

tamils won more nobel prize for science than rest of the indians combined ( rest includes both punjabis and bongs ) ..

 

and coming back to sports , we all know punjus lost hope on their own men and hired a guy from the south to lead their team  

Lol...this coming from a team that has relied on a Jharkandi + a Kashmiri pundit + corruption as the pillars of their success. Doesn’t get any more besharam than this. Reminds me of a guy in our class who said he banged more girls than any of us but in actual fact they were all prostitutes.

 

[Stradlater]

Man I feel so left out in this thread.

Gotta kick up my inner regional aspirations to stake a claim as the most 'Bade Dil Wale' people in the country.

[Gollum]

I stay out of these history related threads these days, too time consuming . But always a pleasure to read. 

[Stradlater]

16 minutes ago, Gollum said:

I stay out of these history related threads these days, too time consuming . But always a pleasure to read. 

I should start one for my ancestors as well. 

Thinking about making an alliance with Tamils in order to counter threat of Punjabis and Bengalis.

[velu]

i can guarantee that this thread will be a fighting ground between @Muloghonto  and @mancalledsting ( until he gets tired of mulo )

[velu]

1 hour ago, velu said:

kicking ass comes naturally to us tamils ..  ( more than bongs or punjabis ) 

 

 

@Muloghonto  when we were on a mission to conquer 7 seas and 5 oceans , we kicked your ass on our way  

[asterix]

This thread is now going towards “my dick is longer than yours”...

Possibly the reason why India is so different to other countries... It’s a unique democracy having a union of great states having their own individual histories...

Hatsoff to Sardar Patel to assimilate all these states and people into one union...

Unfortunately these fights will go among Indians...

As long as all keep on supporting team India, it’ll be fine...

[Gollum]

 
[mention=17646]Muloghonto[/mention]  when we were on a mission to conquer 7 seas and 5 oceans , we kicked your ass on our way  

Yaar stop this flame baiting. The purpose of this thread is lost, has been reduced to my ancestors vs your ancestors. All states have great history and culture, let us leave it at that.



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[nikred]

My ancestors kicked all the other's ancestors. Then they ate, boozed and partied all night long.

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[rkt.india]

15 hours ago, mancalledsting said:

And the only Indian to ever win an Olympic Gold Medal: Abhinav Bindra

and still you call Punjab is poor and neglected