Question mark over stats of some of the Pak greats

[cric_fan]

Would you like if I come on a Pakistani forum & call you & your compatriots as P***s? If you can post here in English, I'm sure you can write the names of Indian players correctly as well.

 

Errrr I’ve seen racist slurs & insults thrown at Pak players here on a regular basis...including myself. You won’t see such insults on a Pak forum.

 

[cric_fan]

looks like somebody's fixated on their body part that's on fire with some hard truths being pointed out.  
 
On topic of the thread - both Imran and Miandad were clearly good players.  But there is absolutely no doubt that they were the statistical beneficiaries from some horrifically one-eyed game administration.  It has been stated repeatedly that the Pakistani team was allowed by the umpires to take the ball with them to the pavilion during breaks - this is from that infamous series in the 1980s where you saw Imran get banana swing on the ball on an absolute dustbowl of a track.  
 
Anybody who understands cricket, and bowling, can see, unambiguously, that the ball has been massively tampered with.  Even greenbros, if they are being honest.
 
I have personally spoken to the great Mohinder Amarnath.  And he told me that while he was batting at the non-striker end in Pakistan, the umpire gently pointed out to the Pakistani pace bowler that he was over-stepping, and by quite a margin.  DIdn't actually call the no-ball mind you, just told the bowler to reign it in a bit.  Guess what happened next?  The bowler cursed out the umpire in choice punjabi and told him to stick to his job and let him bowl.  And that's exactly what happened.  
 
There is a reason why Imran's great ego was stung enough by taunts about his home umpires that he started talking about neutral umpires later in his career.  Didn't say one word about it in the early part of the 1980s though.  
 
To be fair, I will say that home bias, and notoriously pronounced home bias, wasn't limited to Pakistan in those days - NZ and SL were also infamous for this.  

Yea, of course you have spoken to Amarnath. Of course he would be biased.

You are talking as if Ind did not have home advantage whatsoever.

[sandeep]

18 minutes ago, zen said:

I don't know about the customs but I like to expose Pak, which I see as extremely corrupt and blatant (acts as if everyone else is a fool to not understand its play)

I don't like to resort to stereotyping and mass generalizations, but there is a strong tendency amongst the greenbros, even the relatively sane ones, to close ranks, circle the wagons and defend the indefensible, justify the unjustifiable.  You can see this pattern manifest itself in all scenarios - whether is pardoning proven fixers like Wasim Akram by a Judge, whether its shamelessly denying that the likes of Ajmal kasab were Pakistani, etc etc.  

[zen]

1 minute ago, cric_fan said:

 

Errrr I’ve seen racist slurs & insults thrown at Pak players here on a regular basis. So don’t preach what you practice.

That is fine though. And that happens for players from most teams. Say we start a thread about the "Smith and Warner" issue, do we expect OZ fans to start throwing insults at Ind players to reciprocate or discuss the topic w/ fair points if they have or say that their players were on the wrong side .... Instead of accepting that Pak greats inflated their stats, which is a reasonable topic, you are tying to turn this in to a Ind vs Pak .... Pak has lots to learn, my friend!  

[zen]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

I don't like to resort to stereotyping and mass generalizations, but there is a strong tendency amongst the greenbros, even the relatively sane ones, to close ranks, circle the wagons and defend the indefensible, justify the unjustifiable.  You can see this pattern manifest itself in all scenarios - whether is pardoning proven fixers like Wasim Akram by a Judge, whether its shamelessly denying that the likes of Ajmal kasab were Pakistani, etc etc.  

And let's not forgot how blatant its govt is too (OBL example for e.g.) .... also the support for Aamir, Butt, and Asif

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, cric_fan said:

 

Yea, of course you have spoken to Amarnath. Of course he would be biased.

You are talking as if Ind did not have home advantage whatsoever.

 

Yes, I have spoken to him.  

 

And I am not denying the possibility of biased home umpiring in India as well.  And as I wrote above, it was well prevalent all over cricket, in other countries at the time also.  But its the extent and blatancy of it with which Pakistan practiced it, that took it to another level.   

 

See, its easy for one-eyed defenders of the flag to stick their head in the sand and just claim its "Indians whinging".  But facts are simply what they are.  

 

I have a lot of respect for Imran the cricketer.  He achieved many creditable things on the field, and should be admired.  But as one grows up, they should develop the capacity to move beyond hero worship, and appreciate the facts about people.  And just because the entire picture has a few warts, doesn't mean that the person isn't worthy of admiration.   One can be a big fan of Imran the cricketer, while being aware of the fact that "Imm the dimm" has never been the sharpest tool in the shed, or was a giant man slut during the 70s, 80s and possibly beyond.  That's his personal life.  And his problem.  

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, zen said:

And let's not forgot how blatant its govt is too (OBL example for e.g.) .... also the support for Aamir, Butt, and Asif

Their 'govt' is just a mouthpiece for their military mafia overlords.  I could care less about what comes out of that trash.  

 

I think the phenomenon we are discussing stems from a seige mentality.  Its not as if they don't know the facts, but they feel like they have to aggressively defend 'their own' against the other.  Facts be damned.  To a degree, its understandable.  But really, you'd expect the educated ones, to have the capacity to rise above such a mentality.  Especially the expats.  

 

The day the educated elites start being honest about such facts, is the day when Pakistan has some hope of turning the corner, and stop being the mess that it is.  

[coffee_rules]

Simple. Google Shakoor Rana , Gatting! 

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, cric_fan said:

 

Modern Pak bowlers are not skilled enough to bowl banana yorkers..,infact, no bowler is. Shoaib used to tail it in but not the way Waqar did (banana swing).

The last brilliant yorker bowler in Pak was Umar Gul.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

what baqwaas logic is this?  No amount of skill can explain the amount of movement Imran was getting in that series.  Go look at the videos on youtube.  Videos don't lie. 

[Nikhil_cric]

To be fair, home umpiring was an issue everywhere. Some real pathetic umpires in Oz/NZ/wi as well. So I would cut Miandad some slack. But there's absolutely no justification for Imran the cheat. Would've been half the bowler if he didn't tamper. 

[zen]

The sum of parts add up to make a big difference:

 

There used to be a saying that Miandad plays with both bat and pad. Appears as if Inzi learned that too:

 

 

 

below Shakoor Rana:

 

 

 

of course, Pak don't mind doing the things below too:

 

 

^ look at Miandad celebrating there even after he realized that the WK dropped it  

Edited October 5, 2018 by zen

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, Nikhil_cric said:

To be fair, home umpiring was an issue everywhere. Some real pathetic umpires in Oz/NZ/wi as well. So I would cut Miandad some slack. But there's absolutely no justification for Imran the cheat. Would've been half the bowler if he didn't tamper. 

nope pak were undisputed kings of cheating..lol no doubt on that one.

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Nikhil_cric said:

To be fair, home umpiring was an issue everywhere. Some real pathetic umpires in Oz/NZ/wi as well. So I would cut Miandad some slack. But there's absolutely no justification for Imran the cheat. Would've been half the bowler if he didn't tamper. 

Yeah, its not just us, but other teams- like England, West Indies, etc. who've all complained about the whole lbw double-standards in Pakistan during the 70s & 80s period. It lessened in the 90s due to tv scrutiny but was still there. 

If you notice, the lbw stats of almost all Pakistani bowlers ( Qadir, Imran, etc) are all massively skewed for home vs Away compared to others, while their batsmen have the same benefit too at home. 

Wasim is the only bowler i see not benefitting much from this lbw scenario, since for left arm pacers vs righties, most lbws come from extremely full and straight balls, with most swinging deliveries being more doubtful for the umpires. 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

32 minutes ago, Vilander said:

nope pak were undisputed kings of cheating..lol no doubt on that one.

Yeah ok but still that would make the umpires chests in Miandad s case. Imran on the other hand is responsible for tampering himself though.

[Nikhil_cric]

17 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yeah, its not just us, but other teams- like England, West Indies, etc. who've all complained about the whole lbw double-standards in Pakistan during the 70s & 80s period. It lessened in the 90s due to tv scrutiny but was still there. 

If you notice, the lbw stats of almost all Pakistani bowlers ( Qadir, Imran, etc) are all massively skewed for home vs Away compared to others, while their batsmen have the same benefit too at home. 

Wasim is the only bowler i see not benefitting much from this lbw scenario, since for left arm pacers vs righties, most lbws come from extremely full and straight balls, with most swinging deliveries being more doubtful for the umpires. 

 

If the difference is significantly larger than for teams like India, that certainly does revise my opinion of their Pacers even further. Especially Imran. Without that booming inswing , he was very ordinary . Atleast Wasim could generate bounce and Waqar was quick through the air. Imran was nothing special .

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Nikhil_cric said:

If the difference is significantly larger than for teams like India, that certainly does revise my opinion of their Pacers even further. Especially Imran. Without that booming inswing , he was very ordinary . Atleast Wasim could generate bounce and Waqar was quick through the air. Imran was nothing special .

Yeah. Imran's bowling also looked very dodgy. He'd bowl a near half-volley or full pitched ones that'd pitch and then break in like an off-break. 

I remember a Desmond Haynes interview when he got clean bowled in the late 80s off an Imran delivery that he says pitched on the full, nearly a foot outside the off-stump and crashed into his middle stump, during a tour of Pakistan. He picked up the ball and said 'it had a ragged seam like its been picked and one side of the leather had holes (now we know, from bottle caps) that looked like a dog chewed on it. Showed it to the umpires but they just shrugged and blamed wear and tear'. 

 

Not to mention, Imran was the ultimate in farming his average, in both versions. When he declined as a bowler, he routinely opened the bowling with Akram ahead of Waqar, got 8-2-15-1 type of figures and never bowled again in the match or came back for another 5-6 overs with a 70 over ball to knock over the tail. 

This is standard of his 87-91 period, where he didn't bowl like a declining bowler. Instead,he abused his captaincy rights to essentilly propel a 5th bowler (himself) with the new ball, leading to a 'Hansie Cronje or Steve Waugh with the new ball before Pollock or Hughes' kinda scenario. 

[rtmohanlal]

 game loving fans who believe in ethics and fair play can't treat the credentials of this chronic ball tamperor Imran as legitimate. I simply can't . Once I used to adore him madly in my teen days.Now it is just the opposite. He was by far the best exponent of this
dirty trick. Now when ever I think of his 'greatness', the fate of poor Steven smith comes to mind.That man just acted for the benefit of his bowlers because of him being the captain and got banned for 1 year. So he was given such a harsh punishment for a matter which has nothing to do with his credentials as a great player because of him being a great 'batsman'.I wonder what would have happened to this chronic tamperor Imran had he played in this era.We can trace out names of at least 15 cricket related personalities of which  even several are Pakistanis who have given testimonies  at various times w.r.t  Imran's tampering exercises.

 

Similarly  Akram,Waqar, Miandad all benefitted from tampering,  partial umpiring etc etc.It can be said that biased umpiring existed every where in the world  during those  pre multi camera times in varying levels. But these Pakistanis where the worst. WRT tampering, the lesser said about these Pakistanies, the better

[rtmohanlal]

10 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yeah. Imran's bowling also looked very dodgy. He'd bowl a near half-volley or full pitched ones that'd pitch and then break in like an off-break. 

I remember a Desmond Haynes interview when he got clean bowled in the late 80s off an Imran delivery that he says pitched on the full, nearly a foot outside the off-stump and crashed into his middle stump, during a tour of Pakistan. He picked up the ball and said 'it had a ragged seam like its been picked and one side of the leather had holes (now we know, from bottle caps) that looked like a dog chewed on it. Showed it to the umpires but they just shrugged and blamed wear and tear'. 

 

Not to mention, Imran was the ultimate in farming his average, in both versions. When he declined as a bowler, he routinely opened the bowling with Akram ahead of Waqar, got 8-2-15-1 type of figures and never bowled again in the match or came back for another 5-6 overs with a 70 over ball to knock over the tail. 

This is standard of his 87-91 period, where he didn't bowl like a declining bowler. Instead,he abused his captaincy rights to essentilly propel a 5th bowler (himself) with the new ball, leading to a 'Hansie Cronje or Steve Waugh with the new ball before Pollock or Hughes' kinda scenario. 

well said.... i was about to post that .... padosis chest thump about his captaincy credentials. But the fact was that he used even his captaincy so cunningly  to  boost his own selfish benefits. To add to what you said, he would choose in  which series to play or not.Once he skipped a  home  series vs AUS claiming that   it was too hot to play. If it was in now a days, he would have been a laughing stock of world cricket.When I think of the fate of poor Steven smith, I am sure,  if not  for  the times he played in, even his destiny  in fortunes as a human itself would have been some thing else.

[Vilander]

3 hours ago, cric_fan said:

 

Anyway I enjoy seeing bitter Indians crying over the phenomenal skills of past Pak fast bowlers. Bahot mazzah bhai.

triggered. respond to the videos.

 

thats some of the most blatant cheating in the game. 

 

 

[Turning_track]

4 minutes ago, Vilander said:

triggered. respond to the videos.

 

thats some of the most blatant cheating in the game. 

 

 

Include this as well, that too playing against Bangladesh.