Michael Vaughan places Virat Kohli above Sachin Tendulkar and Brian Lara: I haven't seen anyone better

[rtmohanlal]

6 minutes ago, zen said:

Excluding BD and Zim, Lara played 224 innings. For an apples to apples comparison, we also have Sachin's number at the completion of his 224 inning vs the same group of teams.  In terms of Innings per 50+ score, both Lara and Sachin are similar and therefore equally consistent. So, ideally, in your scores above, Lara could have more 50+ scores than you listed

 

Excluding BD and Zim, Lara has played 224 innings: 

Records type batting analysis [change type]

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Primary team West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka

ulOrdered by default (ascending)

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1990-2006	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	19753	60.51	34	48	17	1559	88	Profile
filtered	1990-2006	126	224	6	11517	400*	52.83	19211	59.95	32	47	17	1504	81

 

 

Similarly, Tendulkar at his 224th inning vs these sides:

Records type batting analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date less than or equal to 13 Aug 2008

Ordered by default (ascending)

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
unfiltered	1989-2013	200	329	33	15921	248*	53.78	51	68	14	Profile
filtered	1989-2008	136	224	21	10403	241*	51.24	33	46	13

 

• This is apples to apples at the completion of their respective 224 innings mark
• They have the same # of 50+ scores with Lara having a 50 more, while Tendulkar has a 100 more. Therefore, both of them are equally consistent 
• Lara has scored 1114 more! (highlights the ability to score bigger 100s) 
• Lara averages 53 with just 6 not outs; Tendulkar averages 51 with 21 not outs 

 

*****

 

Also Lara's runs are relatively more valuable for his team

 

During Lara's career vs the selected sides:

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 1 Jan 2007

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0
BC Lara	1990-2006	126	224	6	11517	400*	52.83	19211	59.95	32	47	17
S Chanderpaul	1994-2006	91	159	20	6330	203*	45.53	14733	42.96	13	39	10
DL Haynes	1990-1994	31	56	8	2147	167	44.72	4518	47.52	6	8	3
RB Richardson	1990-1995	41	70	5	2629	182	40.44	5323	49.38	6	14	5
JC Adams	1992-2001	52	87	16	2867	208*	40.38	7480	38.32	5	14	7

 

• The combined average of the next 4 batsmen is 43
• Lara averages 53 (+10)
• Avg difference b/w #1 and #2 is 7

 

 

During Tendulkar's career vs the selected sides: 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1989 and 1 Jan 2013

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
SR Tendulkar	1989-2012	178	297	27	13907	241*	51.50	43	63	13
V Sehwag	2001-2012	94	165	4	8124	319	50.45	23	28	16
R Dravid	1996-2012	147	261	27	11726	270	50.11	30	57	6
VVS Laxman	1996-2012	125	213	32	8384	281	46.32	16	55	14
M Azharuddin	1989-2000	69	103	6	4357	192	44.91	16	15	4

 

• The combined average of the next 4 batsmen is 48
• Tendulkar averages 51 (+3) 
• Avg difference b/w #1 and #2 is 1 

 

 

I hope you went thru the data  put forward by me w.r.t their 'dominance'    & ' consistancy' factors at 'abroad' which matters  the most. Heck..... that is not even a comparison .

 

In  'dominance' they are almost  neck and neck with Lara perhaps slightly ahead by  thin hair. But in consistancy

a difference of 37.31-27.8= 9.51 runs/inns  in favour of SRT , that too despite playing 128 inns to Lara's 101 .

Think of it , in the vast majority of normal inns, SRT scores a whopping  9.51/27.8 = 34.21%  more runs per inns  when compared to Lara. That he did  in 128 inns when compared Lara's 101 . This is one data that   emphatically tilts  the pendulum in SRT's favour.

What ever be the other factors , in each of those where these two batsmen would have slight lead either way , a  neutral thinker can't just overl look this factor.

Heck 9.51 runs(34.21%) more  in each of the  128 inns at abroad against non minnows!!!!!!!!!!!   that too playing 128 inns against Lara's  101. Facts don't lie mate....

[zen]

38 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

I hope you went thru the data  put forward by me w.r.t their 'dominance'    & ' consistancy' factors at 'abroad' which matters  the most. Heck..... that is not even a comparison .

 

In  'dominance' they are almost  neck and neck with Lara perhaps slightly ahead by  thin hair. But in consistancy

a difference of 37.31-27.8= 9.51 runs/inns  in favour of SRT , that too despite playing 128 inns to Lara's 101 .

Think of it , in the vast majority of normal inns, SRT scores a whopping  9.51/27.8 = 34.21%  more runs per inns  when compared to Lara. That he did  in 128 inns when compared Lara's 101 . This is one data that   emphatically tilts  the pendulum in SRT's favour.

What ever be the other factors , in each of those where these two batsmen would have slight lead either way , a  neutral thinker can't just overl look this factor.

Heck 9.51 runs(34.21%) more  in each of the  128 inns at abroad against non minnows!!!!!!!!!!!   that too playing 128 inns against Lara's  101. Facts don't lie mate....

 

 

 

PS If we have to include criterias, below is an example of what is important 

 

in a basket with bowlers, who started in 90s, McGrath+Warne (benchmark pair), Donald+Pollock, and Murali  in their respective sides:

 

  

 

• Avg difference is significant here (Lara is +10)
• Sample size is good too with 50+ innings so the above basket is a good representative of such performances 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by zen

[rtmohanlal]

6 minutes ago, zen said:

 

PS 

 

in a basket with bowlers, who started in 90s, McGrath+Warne (benchmark pair), Donald+Pollock, and Murali  in their respective sides:

 

  

 

• Avg difference is significant here (Lara is +10)
• Sample size is good too with 50+ innings so the above basket is a good representative of such performances 

but you forgot to add Walsh,Ambrose,Bishop, Akram,Waqar & Steyn into the mix ,mate .... they too were ATG bowlers.

Also Lara couldn't score a single  100+  against Donald or Wasim or Waqar  where as SRT has 3.

 

[zen]

23 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

but you forgot to add Walsh,Ambrose,Bishop, Akram,Waqar & Steyn into the mix ,mate .... they too were ATG bowlers.

Also Lara couldn't score a single  100+  against Donald or Wasim or Waqar  where as SRT has 3.

 

Let's not fall in to easy traps my friend where you look clueless as we will keep on adding factors till we get to what I posted in the original post you quoted (which was the point of the last post) .... read the original post properly to not waste  time! .... and it is common sense that when comparing two batsmen, you would ideally take bowlers they both faced 

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by zen

[rtmohanlal]

11 minutes ago, zen said:

don't fall in to easy traps my friend where you look clueless as we will keep on adding bowlers till we get to what I posted in the original post you quoted. read it properly to not waste  time! .... also it is common sense that when comparing two batsmen, you would ideally take bowlers they both faced 

 I read it properly. you conveniently  forgot Chris Gayle  who debuted  in 2000 and have a  far far better track record when compared to Sehwag in SENA. Similarly Sarwan too was there. So had Ganguly & Gambhir for SRT .But another major aid  Lara had  was 3 ATG bowlers in Ambrose,Walsh & Bishop     where as SRT had none of the calibre of these bowlers.Means , in short  in these type of factors 

either of these batsmen had  advantages or disadvantages  in small levels either way.

 

As per the bolded statement, then why you took this difficulty in filtering out those ' selected bowlers'  at the first place??? If 'bowlers they both faced ' need to be selected ,then don't we select all the bowlers they faced in their career , why selecting  4 or 5 bowlers only??

[Jimmy Cliff]

I think Kohli up until late 2016 had a Lara-like tendency to be at his most prolific in dead inconsequential Tests of a series. He has addressed that to a great degree in the last couple of years by consistently delivering in live Tests. Which is why just like Sachin and unlike Lara, he now averages 50+ in the live games that matter the most.

 

This also reflects in their records down under with Tendulkar and Kohli scoring 5 and 4 hundreds respectively in live Tests while Lara scoring only 2. 

[zen]

6 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

 I read it properly. you conveniently  forgot Chris Gayle  who debuted  in 2000 and have a  far far better track record when compared to Sehwag in SENA. Similarly Sarwan too was there. So had Ganguly & Gambhir for SRT .But another major aid  Lara had  was 3 ATG bowlers in Ambrose,Walsh & Bishop     where as SRT had none of the calibre of these bowlers.Means , in short  in these type of factors 

either of these batsmen had  advantages or disadvantages  in small levels either way.

Buddy, people know all that. The comprehensive numbers posted speak for Lara. Let's not waste time with such things^ .... I understand that Sachin fanboys may feel a moral duty to come rushing in when someone like Lara is considered as a better 

 

Quote

As per the bolded statement, then why you took this difficulty in filtering out those ' selected bowlers'  at the first place??? If 'bowlers they both faced ' need to be selected ,then don't we select all the bowlers they faced in their career , why selecting  4 or 5 bowlers only??

Assuming that above is a serious question:

 

"For the bowling attack, the benchmark pair is McGrath + Warne, which I think is a great example of a bowling attack with variety in its generation .... Addendums include other top bowlers of 90s such as Donald, who led the SA pace dominated attack (included as Donald+Pollock both bowling in the side), and Murali, who is among the ATG spinners and an example of a lone wolf attack at times and a leader of an attack whose strength was spin esp. when playing in SL .... ()"  

 

The basket has the variety and is representative enough of such performances with a sample size of 50+ innings 

 

Thank you!

[Forever Indian]

23 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

I think Kohli up until late 2016 had a Lara-like tendency to be at his most prolific in dead inconsequential Tests of a series. He has addressed that to a great degree in the last couple of years by consistently delivering in live Tests. Which is why just like Sachin and unlike Lara, he now averages 50+ in the live games that matter the most.

 

This also reflects in their records down under with Tendulkar and Kohli scoring 5 and 4 hundreds respectively in live Tests while Lara scoring only 2. 

Kohli is still to prove a match winner away from home even in current team.

 

A very interesting stat regarding batting averages in Wins and Loss/Draws away:

KOHLI:

Wins avg: 43.5

Loss/Draws avg: 48.7

Difference: + 5.2

 

PUJARA:

Wins avg: 56.3

Loss/Draws avg: 28.8

Difference: - 27.5

 

RAHANE:

Wins avg: 50.8

Loss/Draws avg: 43.6

Difference: - 7.1

 

In cricket, if you are a match winner you will definitely expect that a player’s average in Wins will be higher than in Draws/Losses. But in case of Kohli it is the opposite as he is well off by additional 5.2 average when India losses or draws. Understandably Pujara has very high difference and Rahane has significant difference as well. Also, who among them has the lowest average in wins, surprise … Kohli again.

[Gambit]

1 hour ago, zen said:

And your choice is a good one! 

 

Excluding BD and Zim, Lara played 224 innings. For an apples to apples comparison, we also have Sachin's number at the completion of his 224 inning vs the same group of teams.  In terms of Innings per 50+ score, both Lara and Sachin are similar and therefore equally consistent. So, ideally, in your scores listed above, Lara could have more 50+ scores, along with big 100s, than you listed

 

Excluding BD and Zim, Lara has played 224 innings: 

Records type batting analysis [change type]

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Primary team West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka

ulOrdered by default (ascending)

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1990-2006	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	19753	60.51	34	48	17	1559	88	Profile
filtered	1990-2006	126	224	6	11517	400*	52.83	19211	59.95	32	47	17	1504	81

 

 

Similarly, Tendulkar at his 224th inning vs these sides:

Records type batting analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date less than or equal to 13 Aug 2008

Ordered by default (ascending)

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
unfiltered	1989-2013	200	329	33	15921	248*	53.78	51	68	14	Profile
filtered	1989-2008	136	224	21	10403	241*	51.24	33	46	13

 

• This is apples to apples at the completion of their respective 224 innings mark
• They have the same # of 50+ scores with Lara having a 50 more, while Tendulkar has a 100 more. Therefore, both of them are equally consistent 
• Lara has scored 1114 more! (highlights the ability to score bigger 100s) 
• Lara averages 53 with just 6 not outs; Tendulkar averages 51 with 21 not outs 

 

*****

 

Also Lara's runs are relatively more valuable for his team

 

During Lara's career vs the selected sides:

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 1 Jan 2007

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0
BC Lara	1990-2006	126	224	6	11517	400*	52.83	19211	59.95	32	47	17
S Chanderpaul	1994-2006	91	159	20	6330	203*	45.53	14733	42.96	13	39	10
DL Haynes	1990-1994	31	56	8	2147	167	44.72	4518	47.52	6	8	3
RB Richardson	1990-1995	41	70	5	2629	182	40.44	5323	49.38	6	14	5
JC Adams	1992-2001	52	87	16	2867	208*	40.38	7480	38.32	5	14	7

 

• The combined average of the next 4 batsmen is 43
• Lara averages 53 (+10)
• Avg difference b/w #1 and #2 is 7

 

 

During Tendulkar's career vs the selected sides: 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1989 and 1 Jan 2013

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
SR Tendulkar	1989-2012	178	297	27	13907	241*	51.50	43	63	13
V Sehwag	2001-2012	94	165	4	8124	319	50.45	23	28	16
R Dravid	1996-2012	147	261	27	11726	270	50.11	30	57	6
VVS Laxman	1996-2012	125	213	32	8384	281	46.32	16	55	14
M Azharuddin	1989-2000	69	103	6	4357	192	44.91	16	15	4

 

• The combined average of the next 4 batsmen is 48
• Tendulkar averages 51 (+3) 
• Avg difference b/w #1 and #2 is 1 

 

**** 

PS

 

Also in a basket with bowlers, who started in 90s, McGrath+Warne (benchmark pair), Donald+Pollock, and Murali  in their respective sides:

 

  

 

• Avg difference is significant here (Lara is +10)
• Sample size is good too with 50+ innings so the above basket is a good representative of such performances 

 

 

 

Everyone once in a while comes a post that makes one spit their morning coffee out and come out of hibernation. Not sure why you are bowing at the end of that post. Or maybe that's a smiley asking for a smack on the head. I have seen some stats hacks but Avg*SR and random bowling combinations take the cake!  

 

Any case can be easily made for Lara being better than Tendulkar because there is so little separating the two but the above "analysis" is just puerile and disingenuous. 

 

Here's a simple analysis: Tendulkar and Lara against bowlers with more than 150 wickets and less than 26 average.
 

Bowlers list

https://bit.ly/2STSzdF

 

Disclaimer - Tendulkar faced 3 WI bowlers (Ambrose, Walsh and Bishop) who matched this criterion but no Indian bowler met this threshold. Hence, Kumble has been added for Lara as he was the leading Indian bowler ("lone wolf") to add an additional opposition and home/away dynamic. These are what the stats look like now.

 

 

Lara - 132 innings with 16 100s at 46.95 (Home - 46.84, Away - 47.04)

 

https://bit.ly/2rJawA3
 

Tendulkar: 129 innings with 20 100s at 47.32 (Home - 47.40, Away - 47.25)

 

https://bit.ly/2EC7BSf

 

In roughly the same number of innings, Tendulkar has more 100s, higher overall average and higher away average. Tendulkar faced 12 such bowlers and Lara 8 (never batted against Akhtar in tests). Tendulkar also outperforms Lara in Australia, in Pakistan and in West Indies too. Tendulkar's lowest average in a country is 40 whereas Lara averages 22 in Pakistan and 33 India with 0 100s in 7 tests/14 innings!   

[Jimmy Cliff]

23 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

I think Kohli up until late 2016 had a Lara-like tendency to be at his most prolific in dead inconsequential Tests of a series. He has addressed that to a great degree in the last couple of years by consistently delivering in live Tests. Which is why just like Sachin and unlike Lara, he now averages 50+ in the live games that matter the most.

 

This also reflects in their records down under with Tendulkar and Kohli scoring 5 and 4 hundreds respectively in live Tests while Lara scoring only 2. 

More on this if we compare their records in Australia in live games

 

Tendulkar has 1603 runs @ 57+ with 5 hundreds.

Kohli has 838 runs @ 52+ with 4 hundreds.

Lara has 1015 runs @ 36+ with 2 hundreds.

 

I believe similar patterns would emerge in most of these exercises with Lara although the gulf may not necessarily be this high. I am just glad that Kohli is now regularly stepping up in the games that matter most instead of letting the team down when the series is alive and then going big in dead rubbers.

 

[rtmohanlal]

25 minutes ago, zen said:

Buddy, people know all that. The comprehensive numbers posted speak for Lara. Let's not waste time with such things^ .... I understand that Sachin fanboys may feel a moral duty to come rushing in when someone like Lara is considered as a better 

 

Assuming that above is a serious question:

 

"For the bowling attack, the benchmark pair is McGrath + Warne, which I think is a great example of a bowling attack with variety in its generation .... Addendums include other top bowlers of 90s such as Donald, who led the SA pace dominated attack (included as Donald+Pollock both bowling in the side), and Murali, who is among the ATG spinners and an example of a lone wolf attack at times and a leader of an attack whose strength was spin esp. when playing in SL .... ()"  

 

The basket has the variety and is representative enough of such performances with a sample size of 50+ innings 

 

Thank you!

it is not always immature fans boys  who are always eager to   rush in.  It is just that  people who  consider Sachin the better put forward counter arguments. That's all.

 

Big noooo.... that basket only contains Murali,Warne,Mcgrath & Pollock , all spin,swing,seam bowlers , no out and out fast  bowlers.

And that is not even   half of the variety.

 Donald,Waqar,Steyn( genuine quicker thru the air much skiddy  bowlers)Wasim( left arm & skiddy), Ambrose(unique in being faster,bouncier & nasty), Walsh & Bishop(some where  between Ambrose & mcgrath) - this formed  the other part.

 

Any way ...thank you

 

 

 

[zen]

1 hour ago, Gambit said:

Everyone once in a while comes a post that makes one spit their morning coffee out and come out of hibernation. Not sure why you are bowing at the end of that post. Or maybe that's a smiley asking for a smack on the head. I have seen some stats hacks but Avg*SR and random bowling combinations take the cake!  

 

Any case can be easily made for Lara being better than Tendulkar because there is so little separating the two but the above "analysis" is just puerile and disingenuous. 

 

Spilling the coffee, coming running out w/o thinking and focusing on minor things which are sometimes not even to be discussed is an expected behavior from a typical Sachin fanboy    .... next you can focus on 4s and 6s in the table below to say something about cricinfo to defend Sachin (you failed the test) .... many of those other stats are more like other USPs to see where and how Lara makes impact .... Lara is rated higher for the below, which accounts for a variety of factors:

 

Excluding BD and Zim, Lara has played 224 innings: 

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Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka

ulOrdered by default (ascending)

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1990-2006	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	19753	60.51	34	48	17	1559	88	Profile
filtered	1990-2006	126	224	6	11517	400*	52.83	19211	59.95	32	47	17	1504	81

 

 

Similarly, Tendulkar at his 224th inning vs these sides:

Records type batting analysis [change type]

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Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date less than or equal to 13 Aug 2008

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
unfiltered	1989-2013	200	329	33	15921	248*	53.78	51	68	14	Profile
filtered	1989-2008	136	224	21	10403	241*	51.24	33	46	13

 

• This is apples to apples at the completion of their respective 224 innings mark
• They have the same # of 50+ scores with Lara having a 50 more, while Tendulkar has a 100 more. Therefore, both of them are equally consistent 
• Lara has scored 1114 more! (highlights the ability to score bigger 100s) 
• Lara averages 53 with just 6 not outs; Tendulkar averages 51 with 21 not outs 

 

 

Thanks for the comedy though (and proving my point on Sachin fanboys) 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by zen

[zen]

1 hour ago, rtmohanlal said:

it is not always immature fans boys  who are always eager to   rush in.  It is just that  people who  consider Sachin the better put forward counter arguments. That's all.

 

Big noooo.... that basket only contains Murali,Warne,Mcgrath & Pollock , all spin,swing,seam bowlers , no out and out fast  bowlers.

And that is not even   half of the variety.

 Donald,Waqar,Steyn( genuine quicker thru the air much skiddy  bowlers)Wasim( left arm & skiddy), Ambrose(unique in being faster,bouncier & nasty), Walsh & Bishop(some where  between Ambrose & mcgrath) - this formed  the other part.

 

Any way ...thank you

 

No problem! .... we can always go by the comprehensive numbers, which account for various factors, below:

 

Excluding BD and Zim, Lara has played 224 innings: 

Records type batting analysis [change type]

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Primary team West Indies

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka

ulOrdered by default (ascending)

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1990-2006	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	19753	60.51	34	48	17	1559	88	Profile
filtered	1990-2006	126	224	6	11517	400*	52.83	19211	59.95	32	47	17	1504	81

 

 

Similarly, Tendulkar at his 224th inning vs these sides:

Records type batting analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka  or West Indies

Start of match date less than or equal to 13 Aug 2008

Ordered by default (ascending)

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
unfiltered	1989-2013	200	329	33	15921	248*	53.78	51	68	14	Profile
filtered	1989-2008	136	224	21	10403	241*	51.24	33	46	13

 

• This is apples to apples at the completion of their respective 224 innings mark
• They have the same # of 50+ scores with Lara having a 50 more, while Tendulkar has a 100 more. Therefore, both of them are equally consistent 
• Lara has scored 1114 more! (highlights the ability to score bigger 100s) 
• Lara averages 53 with just 6 not outs; Tendulkar averages 51 with 21 not outs 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by zen

[Jimmy Cliff]

19 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

Kohli is still to prove a match winner away from home even in current team.

 

A very interesting stat regarding batting averages in Wins and Loss/Draws away:

KOHLI:

Wins avg: 43.5

Loss/Draws avg: 48.7

Difference: + 5.2

 

PUJARA:

Wins avg: 56.3

Loss/Draws avg: 28.8

Difference: - 27.5

 

RAHANE:

Wins avg: 50.8

Loss/Draws avg: 43.6

Difference: - 7.1

 

In cricket, if you are a match winner you will definitely expect that a player’s average in Wins will be higher than in Draws/Losses. But in case of Kohli it is the opposite as he is well off by additional 5.2 average when India losses or draws. Understandably Pujara has very high difference and Rahane has significant difference as well. Also, who among them has the lowest average in wins, surprise … Kohli again.

Well I am not a huge fan of Kohli but this is somewhat unfair on him. As a batsman he did pretty much what was asked in Jo'berg 2013 (119+96), twin hundreds in Adelaide 2014 and again in Edgbaston 2018 (149+51) to win games. The fact that he didn't receive enough support either from the bowlers or the batsmen was the reason we didn't win. In general, I think being a "match-winning" batsman in Tests is as much about being at the right place at the right time (i.e. getting the right support / batting 1st or 2nd /having that stroke of luck and so on) as it is about actually performing with the bat. No wonder some of the greatest of knocks and the daddiest of daddy hundreds end up in a losses/draws and fairly moderate innings with the right support end up as "match-winning".

 

As an example, if you look at Gavaskar's career, he averages only 43.97 in matches won (guys like Vishy, Vengsarkar average higher). But there are at least 6-7 potentially match-winning performances of his that were wasted as his team-mates couldn't finish the job. The most famous being the 221 at the Oval and his final innings of 96 at Bangalore.

 

[R!TTER]

The Edgbaston loss should count against him, he was the set batsman who got out on the easiest of deliveries.

[zen]

In the last 3 years of Sachin's career. Probably played to reach the 200 test mark

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or Sri Lanka or West Indies

Start of match date between 1 Jan 2011 and 1 Jan 2014

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 1000

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
CA Pujara	2011-2013	15	24	4	1485	206*	74.25	2852	52.06	6	3	0	183	2
R Dravid	2011-2012	15	29	3	1261	146*	48.50	2894	43.57	5	4	0	142	3
V Kohli	2011-2013	22	37	3	1507	119	44.32	3074	49.02	5	8	2	177	6
SR Tendulkar	2011-2013	24	41	2	1389	146	35.61	2697	51.50	1	9	0	183	7
MS Dhoni	2011-2013	28	46	6	1417	224	35.42	2422	58.50	2	8	5	147	24

 

Should have retired in 2011 after the ODI WC 

[zen]

Fun facts 

 

Note that vs relatively strong teams Aus, SA and Eng 

• Lara played 79 of his 131 tests, which is 60% of his tests, where he avgs 54 with a SR of 60
• Tendulkar played 96 of his 200 tests, which is 48% of his tests, where he avgs 51 with a SR of 54. The avg of 51 is also helped by 16 not outs  

 

Lara

Records type batting analysis [change type]

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Opposition team Australia  or England  or South Africa

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1990-2006	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	19753	60.51	34	48	17	1559	88	Profile
filtered	1992-2005	79	144	5	7554	400*	54.34	12513	60.36	20	31	10	1039	47

 

 

Tendulkar

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1989-2013	200	329	33	15921	248*	53.78	29437+	54.04*	51	68	14	2058+	69	Profile
filtered	1990-2013	96	172	16	7906	241*	50.67	14613	54.10	25	34	7	1033	42

 

 

Against the benchmarked attack of McGrath+Warne

 

McGrath + Warne led Aus is considered as a great example of a strong attack with variety. When both McGrath and Warne played:

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India  or West Indies

Opposition team Australia

Involving all of the players GD McGrath (AUS)  or SK Warne (AUS)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
BC Lara (WI)	1995-2005	15	28	2	1388	226	53.38	2371	58.54	4	5	1	187	8
VVS Laxman (INDIA)	1999-2004	9	17	0	777	281	45.70	1272	61.08	2	3	1	125	0
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	1999-2004	7	14	0	592	126	42.28	1067	55.48	2	4	1	76	3
R Dravid (INDIA)	1999-2004	9	17	0	540	180	31.76	1597	33.81	1	2	2	62	1

 

Tendulkar has only played 7 tests when both McGrath and Warne were in the 11. While Lara played 15 (twice as Tendulkar), where he avgs 53 vs Tendulkar's 42  

[rtmohanlal]

6 hours ago, zen said:

Fun facts 

 

Note that vs relatively strong teams Aus, SA and Eng 

• Lara played 79 of his 131 tests, which is 60% of his tests, where he avgs 54 with a SR of 60
• Tendulkar played 96 of his 200 tests, which is 48% of his tests, where he avgs 51 with a SR of 54. The avg of 51 is also helped by 16 not outs  

 

Lara

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1990-2006	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	19753	60.51	34	48	17	1559	88	Profile
filtered	1992-2005	79	144	5	7554	400*	54.34	12513	60.36	20	31	10	1039	47

 

 

Tendulkar

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	1989-2013	200	329	33	15921	248*	53.78	29437+	54.04*	51	68	14	2058+	69	Profile
filtered	1990-2013	96	172	16	7906	241*	50.67	14613	54.10	25	34	7	1033	42

 

 

Against the benchmarked attack of McGrath+Warne

 

McGrath + Warne led Aus is considered as a great example of a strong attack with variety. When both McGrath and Warne played:

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India  or West Indies

Opposition team Australia

Involving all of the players GD McGrath (AUS)  or SK Warne (AUS)

Ordered by runs scored (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
BC Lara (WI)	1995-2005	15	28	2	1388	226	53.38	2371	58.54	4	5	1	187	8
VVS Laxman (INDIA)	1999-2004	9	17	0	777	281	45.70	1272	61.08	2	3	1	125	0
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	1999-2004	7	14	0	592	126	42.28	1067	55.48	2	4	1	76	3
R Dravid (INDIA)	1999-2004	9	17	0	540	180	31.76	1597	33.81	1	2	2	62	1

 

Tendulkar has only played 7 tests when both McGrath and Warne were in the 11. While Lara played 15 (twice as Tendulkar), where he avgs 53 vs Tendulkar's 42  

went thru all of your tables. 

can't agree with several of the  criteria though .

Firstly, as  every body know, Sachin  played his first  21 tests when he  was a child  prodigy only, I mean he was developing only , though the glimpses of talent was always there.Naturally  to filter out the first same no: of inns as that of Lara is not justifiable.For me

naturally Sachin's data for comparison would always be  his first 177 tests(before 2011 world cup)  after which his terminal decline started.For your info there is one phase as this :

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;spanmax1=14+may+2011;spanmin1=29+jan+1993;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

the above phase can be said of  as the start of Sachin's full development as a batsman.What not that 13534 runs is  still  able to lead 2nd  placed Ponting in the list by 250 or so runs.In this phase Sachin avg:ed a whopping 59.35.

Any way I  can only accept at the least  first 177 tests  where he avg:ed 57 scoring 14692 runs.

 

Secondly you dismiss ZIM as a minnow.No they were not.The Zim  team with Houghton,Flower brothers,Campbell,Brandes,Streak,Goodwin,Paul strang were, if any a lower ranked side in the 90s, not a minnow.What not, their main batsman Andy being  a wkt keeper allowed them to play an extra player that made the team quite formidable. No wonder they won a series in PAK  before Ganguly's IND could manage to do.  And their general series results in the 90s is proof of this. So to avoid ZIM does not make sense.With BAN , I agree

 

Thirdly you mix home &  abroad data which is not  sensible because abroad data obviously carries more weightage.And this is exactly based on this abroad data(till first 177 tests)  that I did that  analysis w.r.t 2 factors 'dominance' & 'consistancy'.   Though  there was not difference between them w.r.t dominance( if any Lara leads  by a hair stretch  ) , Sachin leads Lara by a huge margin w.r.t consistancy .

 

And you dismiss Hadlee led NZL,  Imran & 2 Ws led  PAK , Murali,Vaas,Herath,Mendis  as not worthy opponents.

Again you think Mcgrath & Warne as the only worth bowlers.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by rtmohanlal

[velu]

@CSK Fan  bro , was waiting for you post , but you seem to be either become smarter or resigned  

[CSK Fan]

50 minutes ago, velu said:

@CSK Fan  bro , was waiting for you post , but you seem to be either become smarter or resigned  

Angrezon(Vaughan) ki fidrat hi hai, divide and rule. Dono humare hi sher hai